How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Gorsameth]

It doesn't.

Let me tell you a secret. The shortage of tanks will be solved when tanks will be allowed to kill stuff in PVP. PVP is a great motivator.

Of course, that's not gonna happen because melee PVP players will whine that tanks are hard to kill.

right, a shortage of PvE tanks will be solved by making changes in an area that 95% of players will not touch....

PvP is not a great motivator, its something most people don't give 2 fucks about.

[Phob]

"low to mid-range keys that people routinely pug (15-20)"
"if you think 15-20 is "low to mid range" you are laughably out of reality..."
"Are they not?" (this one is yours if you remember )
"for whole playerbase? not by a longshot, vast majority never even go above 15..."

could you point me out where I or the person i reacted to mentioned keys being easy or not? bcs thats what YOU brought into the debate...
keys that are run =/= keys that COULD BE done by the same people...
fact is people running above +15 are more of and exception than rule, so no, 15-20 is not "low to mid range" in pugs, and your difficulty comment was completely besides the point...

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and in DF mid range MIGHT move up, and perhaps will reach the 15-20, for now, it is not

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if it will be "the same percantage" for +20 rather than +15 then ist still less than third, so still 20 is not even mid range, let alone low...


we didnt talk about difficulty, you did...
people doing +2 are STILL DOING THE CONTENT...
i see where you are coming from now, you are elitist prick who think vast majority doesnt matter bcs they dont do content he deems as difficult enough to warran opinion...
well luckily for us YOUR OPINION doesnt matter, fact is the same, +15 or above are done by minority hence 15-20 is not by any measurement "low to mid range"

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i mean, moving the gear ceiling isnt really "more options" its the same gear we had from more difficult content, for HC raiders and people who barely do KSM that is LESS options for getting best (or close to) gear...

Hmm name calling. And seemingly forgetting that you were the first one to say something about keys. Sorry to criticize with such few words and getting your panties bunched up. (Greater than 15s are done by a minority because of the reward, not the difficulty)

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Yeah, no. 20 is harder than 15. Most people who stop at 15 are nowhere close to good enough to do 20s.

I mean yea they are, but it's not that big of a difference in scaling +15 is 271% and +20 is 399. 25 goes to 587 and 30s (hard content) is 862.

[huth]

I mean yea they are, but it's not that big of a difference in scaling +15 is 271% and +20 is 399. 25 goes to 587 and 30s (hard content) is 862.

That's a nearly 50% increase. That may well mean the difference between easily surviving a blow and getting oneshot.

[lllll]

I mean yea they are, but it's not that big of a difference in scaling +15 is 271% and +20 is 399. 25 goes to 587 and 30s (hard content) is 862.

No.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/impact-...tone-11-329269

15 Shadowlands: 172% Dragonflight: 198%
20 Shadowlands: 300% Dragonflight: 380%
25 Shadowlands: 487% Dragonflight: 673%
30 Shadowlands: 763% Dragonflight: 1145%

[Phob]

That's a nearly 50% increase. That may well mean the difference between easily surviving a blow and getting oneshot.

A 50% increase isn't bad. And there are 5 levels in between 15 and 20 that gets you accustomed to the next.

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No.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/impact-...tone-11-329269

15 Shadowlands: 172% Dragonflight: 198%
20 Shadowlands: 300% Dragonflight: 380%
25 Shadowlands: 487% Dragonflight: 673%
30 Shadowlands: 763% Dragonflight: 1145%

We were talking about Shadowlands but I must have missed that. Still 15-20 is easy-mid tier looking at these numbers.
Also have you been doing any of the tests in beta? The dungeons are even alot easier ruby life pools at a 15 is done in less than 10 mins and the majority of the dungeons are linear.

[Al Gorefiend]

Eh? That makes no sense, as they can easily make it so that any melee DPS -can- tank, and just leave actual tank specs better at it. Maybe they don't want to do that, but saying it's impossible is ridiculous.

Done. Original Death Knight design. All 3 specs were tanks and DPS, still didn't "solve" the tank problem.

As for healers, there's only a healer shortage because healers are boring to play when there isn't a good amount of healing to do.

Subjective. I play a Discipline priest main and have my entire WoW career. No other healer plays the same, very fun and hectic playstyle. I know many others would contend with "healers are boring to play when.." sorts of statements.

It could also be solved by making the game more about surviving on your own (even in PvE)

"solve group content, just remove the group aspect. ez."

and having healers be mostly DPS with more healing utility than others.

They tried this as well. Mistweavers had Chi-ji stance, Holy had Shockadin, restoration had Feral Affinity(?), restoration had access to CC like Hex and Wind Shear still when many heal specs have none.

If a supposed tank and healer problem still exists, it remains entirely in the heads of the players who think they are boring or too hard to play.

[lllll]

We were talking about Shadowlands

You said:

The people who stop at 15 are the people who want the loot. The max loot is at 20 in DF so those people who stopped at 15 will be stopping at 20.

They will absolutely not be stopping at 20 because most of them will never get there, especially with the additional damage increase in DF.

Must have missed that. Still 15-20 is easy-mid tier looking at these numbers.

Hardly.

Also have you been doing any of the tests in beta? The dungeons are even alot easier ruby life pools at a 15 is done in less than 10 mins and the majority of the dungeons are linear.

Yes.

You're absolutely not doing ruby life pools in 10 minutes at a +15 with the average +15 player for quite a long time. They'll struggle to even time +15s the first few weeks until they get more gear and can smash it, that's if they can even get to +15 in that time.

[Phob]

Hardly.



Yes.

You're absolutely not doing ruby life pools in 10 minutes at a +15 with the average +15 player for quite a long time. They'll struggle to even time +15s the first few weeks until they get more gear and can smash it, that's if they can even get to +15 in that time.

Agree to disagree, 15s aren't as hard as you make them out to be. Any content where you can have 20% of your group afk is low-mid tier and you can do that up to 20 easily. 10% would be mid-dif and 0 would be dif.

[lllll]

Agree to disagree, 15s aren't as hard as you make them out to be. Any content where you can have 20% of your group afk is low-mid tier and you can do that up to 20 easily.

For the average ksm player, they are hard until they outgear them and can smash them. You can't judge it by the state of things late season as everyone outgears them.

[Phob]

You said:

Do you remember the context of when that quote was done? Let me refresh you.

Yeah, no. 20 is harder than 15. Most people who stop at 15 are nowhere close to good enough to do 20s.

Meaning people doing them now. Meaning pre df launch. Meaning Shadowlands.

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For the average ksm player, they are hard until they outgear them and can smash them. You can't judge it by the state of things late season as everyone outgears them.

People are always doing it day 1 though.

Just stop. You will always see a 15 as "challenging" and I will always see them as low tier. 15s are just there to give you some brownie points for doing something in the game that requires a tad bit more brain power than a "heroic" raid.

[lllll]

Do you remember the context of when that quote was done?

Yes, you were saying people who are stopping at 15s now for the max reward will stop at 20s in DF for the max reward.

A 20 is well beyond most of those peoples skill level, both now in SL and especially in DF.

I've brought people who are doing 15s into 20 keys and they've single-handedly managed to almost make us not time it with how bad they've played. It would in a lot of cases have been easier if they just sat AFK at the start.

[Phob]

Yes, you were saying people who are stopping at 15s now for the max reward will stop at 20s in DF for the max reward.

A 20 is well beyond most of those peoples skill level, both now in SL and especially in DF.

I've brought people who are doing 15s into 20 keys and they've single-handedly managed to almost make us not time it with how bad they've played.

Ease them up to a 20 instead of making them jump would be the smart thing to do. You only do those jumps when doing harder tier content and easy players don't get the concept of jumping 50% at once.

It would in a lot of cases have been easier if they just sat AFK at the start.

That still proves it's easy to do...

[Eosia]

If a supposed tank and healer problem still exists, it remains entirely in the heads of the players who think they are boring or too hard to play.

Oh there is a problem, but the people who make these threads do not want to accept the reality that the problem is not one Blizzard can really solve without really going for broke on EULA/Code of Conduct enforcement.

I dusted off my Druid for tanking to get him through Uldamon because I knew that as Feral or Laser Poultry I wouldn't be performing anywhere near where I should because I literally only really played those specs in Legion for Mage Tower transmog. Or had a large group to hide in like LFR. I immediately braced for impact when the queue popped. I had Icy Veins' "Easy Mode" guide and on my second monitor and just followed it. There were a few rough patches where a mob or two went after the DPS but I snagged them back.

I think one of the reasons I had it easy was the fact I had the "Bro Bear" from from Legion (initially planned for 5, ended up with like 22). I also told them I hadn't tanked on that char since Legion seeing as it's my mining/herbing primary alt. No problems though. But unfortunately my run was the exception and not the norm.

[lllll]

That still proves it's easy to do...

Easy for people that play well above it, yes.

You're not going to have a team that's just capable of doing 20s that will be able to finish it with 1 person AFK.

15 keys are easy right now because people are outgearing them like mad and they've been nerfed several times. Early in the season they weren't as easy as they are now, I tried pugging 15s on the start of the season to fill my vault out and the rate of failure to time was insanely high.

You are vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.

[Phob]

Easy for people that play well above it, yes.

You're not going to have a team that's just capable of doing 20s that will be able to finish it with 1 person AFK.

15 keys are easy right now because people are outgearing them like mad. Early in the season they weren't as easy as they are now, I tried pugging 15s on the start of the season to fill my vault out and the rate of failure to time was insanely high.

I don't have that issue, and the majority of people I play with don't either. It usually takes a few hours to get to 15s then a few more to get to 20s. After that, that's when the difficulty starts. And I wouldn't say I'm great at the game, I just don't see difficulty until after 20s and what you do/buttons you press when you press then actually matter.

You are vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.

I think you are underestimating the people who actually try to play the game.

[lllll]

I don't have that issue, and the majority of people I play with don't either. It usually takes a few hours to get to 15s then a few more to get to 20s. After that, that's when the difficulty starts.

That doesn't mean the average +15 player is anywhere close to capable of that.

Like I said, you're vastly overestimating how good the playerbase is at the game.

In season 3 when I was still playing my shaman, I was often on 3rd or 4th place on DPS, as the healer in +15 pugs. Often a DPS was 5th. Sometimes I was 2nd and rarely 1st place.

People are always doing it day 1 though.

People that are better than the average KSM player, yes.

You would never see the guys doing 15s and pulling 10k dps in ilvl 300 gear doing a +15 on day 1.

[Gorsameth]

Do you remember the context of when that quote was done? Let me refresh you.


Meaning people doing them now. Meaning pre df launch. Meaning Shadowlands.

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People are always doing it day 1 though.

Just stop. You will always see a 15 as "challenging" and I will always see them as low tier. 15s are just there to give you some brownie points for doing something in the game that requires a tad bit more brain power than a "heroic" raid.

The inability of people to relate is others is always amazing to see.

its easy for you, that doesn't mean it easy for others or everyone.

[Segus1992]

Done. Original Death Knight design. All 3 specs were tanks and DPS, still didn't "solve" the tank problem.

I'm no mathematician but I don't think 3 specs is all specs. Plus that's not at all what I mean since you had to swap gear and presence and even build to tank in your chosen tree. What I'm talking about is making EVERY melee tank acceptably, in any (relevant) gear, with minimal changes.

Subjective. I play a Discipline priest main and have my entire WoW career. No other healer plays the same, very fun and hectic playstyle. I know many others would contend with "healers are boring to play when.." sorts of statements.

Eh. What are you even talking about? Disc is the only healer that has anything resembling an actual DPS rotation so obviously they differ and have reasons to play even in low healing situations. What I'm saying is basically that all healers should be more like Disc, obviously you agree with that.

"solve group content, just remove the group aspect. ez."

Yes, because nuance isn't a thing. It's either "completely reliant on the group" or "5 DPS".

They tried this as well. Mistweavers had Chi-ji stance, Holy had Shockadin, restoration had Feral Affinity(?), restoration had access to CC like Hex and Wind Shear still when many heal specs have none.

They have never tried this, no. You must be stretching to even think "mostly DPS" means "chi-ji stance" or "feral affinity" lmao.

If a supposed tank and healer problem still exists, it remains entirely in the heads of the players who think they are boring or too hard to play.

The problem is with the design. Blaming hundreds of thousands of players for not wanting to play something rather than blaming what it is they don't want to play makes you an idiot.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Wdym by actual DPS rotation? All healers have quite a few damage spells now. Main reason the rotations are so boring is they don't have any cooldowns

[Segus1992]

Wdym by actual DPS rotation? All healers have quite a few damage spells now. Main reason the rotations are so boring is they don't have any cooldowns

Exactly that. Make healer DPS gameplay much more similar to DPS gameplay and you'll see the healer shortage reduce significantly. I personally think healing is the most fun role when the content is challenging, but it's the most boring role without question when the content is easy. I've never been able to main a healer for more than a single patch because of that.