The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[username993720]

Blizzard can very well pull up new lore that the Emerald Dream is NOT the Eonar-made copy of Azeroth (that is only what Eonar would have us believe) to this point, but in fact the whole Plane of Life - whenever Blizzard wishes. In fact, the new lore books clearly establish the titans to be this deceptive, so nothing even stands in the way anymore.

At the same time, lore can be expanded to include Emerald Deserts, Emerald Mountains, Emerald Beaches at any point. That is what is called an "Expansion" when Blizzard takes a hitherto barely defined concept - like Shadowlands - and turns it into way more we previously thought before.

Search up the image: "Emerald Paradise WoW", and you will see an Emerald Dream beach. Anything goes.

Exactly. That's what dear lelenia is having trouble understanding.

[Ielenia]

It is not always clear. There are very vague hints that are hard to decipher.

Especially made-up hints, which is your case.

You couldn't put your finger as to where, but we knew it'd probably feature next expansion.

Just like all those other mounts that didn't pan out to anything?

It pointed to Dragons,

No, it didn't. It pointed to a specific dragon: Sindragosa. Which we fought in the last raid.

What? What does this have to do with the subject? The Core Hound is related to the renewed Molten Core raid. That's it. How it was received doesn't matter whatsoever.

Yes, it does matter. Because the WoW anniversary event is about celebration, and it goes contrary to the idea of the event to bring back a raid and especially a boss fight that is almost unanimously seen by the player base as bad and underwhelming.

Order is geometrical shapes. Landscaping by the titans would be a lot more clean in terms of visuals.

Order is more than just geometric shapes and visuals.

No one said it isn't. But, you didn't expect what you got in the Shadowlands, i'll tell you that. It wasn't backed up by any previous lore.

And I already demonstrated how you're wrong at that: I said I expected afterlives, and we got afterlives in Shadowlands, so I got what I expected. And yes, it was backed up by already existing lore as we had afterlives already: Valhalla. Helheim. The Light.

Did they change the old god shrine into something else like they did the way you get to Draenor? No, they took it out completely.

And they took that tower completely as well from WoD's original concept idea.

They even said: "The origins of the Emerald Dream will be explored in World of Warcraft: Dragonflight."

So what?

No, actually. I admit that i might be wrong, as not everything came to pass by my previous analyses. Yet, none of you guys will admit that there is truth in what i say.

Because there's nothing true to what you said. Your hints are all just bogus conspiracy-theory levels of reaching. Again: Sindragosa appearing in the Wrath opening cinematic in no way, shape or form points to the Cataclysm expansion. The felstorm and the blue glow of the sea likewise are not a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Not fully.

Irrelevant. The point is that we had, multiple times, to different places in the Emerald Dream. And they all look the same, except when they're corrupted by the Nightmare.

Gameplay matters more than lore in this case. They could never show you an endless afterlife.

It doesn't matter. Because you're questioning the fact that Shadowlands is much bigger than Azeroth.

You said it is there because it is linked to Azeroth. We're talking about placement. Why is it there, next to the realm of Life?

*shrug* I do not know. Maybe because the artist who designed it thought the concept of the Emerald Dream fits better on that corner instead of the fire realm, or the void realm, or the holy realm?

You are aware that a single zone has several areas, right?

You're aware that the Emerald Dream is not your typical zone, or even dimension, right?

This is what it used to be before they came up with WoD. WoD introduced a lot of new lore and history. This is Warcraft 2.

Doesn't matter. Because, again, the map you pointed out is not the same as Outland. The map you posted is Draenor pre-explosion but also post-corruption. So it's not the same as Outland.

The Emerald Dream lacks that as of now. You don't know what the developers are capable of, and you are hardly an obstacle when it comes to reinventing a place.

And will likely still lack even after Dragonflight. And I know what the developers can do. They can turn the Emerald Dream into an extension of Maldraxxus, making it an entire realm of nothing but living flesh and pustules and malformed undead abominations shambling around. Or they can make the Emerald Dream into a never-ending desert of purple sand. But the point is that the Emerald Dream is one thing, and one thing only: forests. Forests, forests, forests. Changing that means making the Emerald Dream into something it's not.

Which hardly makes sense. A little mage portal is able to allow the passage of so much material that the Alliance can build several strongholds on that planet. Long story short, it's an obvious reference to Orcs vs Humans, the RTS games, and it is referenced with the Orcs and Human fighting each other in the MoP cinematic.

They don't need materials. Just tools. Materials exist all around them, since all they need is stone and wood. And, again, permanent portals were created in Ashran.

When you are visiting a planet with "native" inhabitants, you tend to use their materials and architectural styles, especially when you are stuck there.

Nope. Absolutely nope. Because who designed the human garrison, for example, was a human, not a draenei.

It is. True Horde, Iron Horde. The themes overlap.

Irrelevant. SoO was not there to be a hint to the next expansion.

Which, you apparently can't because you can't grasp metaphors.

I can grasp metaphors just fine. I just don't accept bullshit.

Well, your awareness of Blizzard's techniques is hardly up there.

Well above yours, at least.

My predictions might have missed the mark with BfA, as we didn't get a Light vs Void expansion after that (but, could still come in the future), but i was spot on with dragons, elementals, temporal magic and perhaps also void involvement.

Your "predictions" missed the mark on basically everything. Not to mention you can hardly call it "predictions" when basically everything you claim you predicted have already happened by the time you made the predictions. After all, you made your """"""""""prediction"""""""""" threat in 2019, when all the expansions in your list have already been long released. What you did there was akin to saying, today, "I predict Obama will be the president of the United States in 2009."

The only actual "prediction" of yours that actually sounded like an actual prediction, about the "light and dark" from BfA, is wrong. Even you admitted that. And as for your Shadowlands -> Dragonflight thingie? Again, you're wrong. Because your premises were all wrong. Aside from how he came to be the way he is, Bolvar has nothing to do with dragons, especially black dragons, and especially Wrathion.

Not to mention you took quite the shotgun approach there, considering you went as so far as to claim that the color of Shadowlands' logo "hinted at dragons".

Where exactly does it say they were shrunk as a result?

"The titans (sometimes capitalized) are a race of colossal, planet-sized cosmic beings"

How is it nonsensical? You see how an inifinite realm is translated into a continent sized location in game.

It's not "translated". We just see a part of it.

You see how the Titans can downsize to be put in a raid environment.

Because they were greatly diminished and weakened after millennia of torture.

If Blizzard used characters' real scale, you couldn't have played the game. The Old Gods, for example, are supposed to be massive. Yet, they are translated into reasonable sizes for you to face them.

We only fight parts of it. N'Zoth, for example? All the tentacles, pustules and eyes we saw in Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms are part of N'Zoth's body.

So, you do see it. Case closed.

The felstorm, the blue glow in the sea, and the old, mossy stone watchers are not references to the Emerald Dream. There are no reference to the Emerald Dream in the Dragonflight's opening cinematic. Case closed.

[username993720]

Especially made-up hints, which is your case.

Are you telling me all hints are made to be easy to decipher?

Just like all those other mounts that didn't pan out to anything?

Like?

No, it didn't. It pointed to a specific dragon: Sindragosa. Which we fought in the last raid.

And which was the theme of the next expansion: dragons.

Yes, it does matter. Because the WoW anniversary event is about celebration, and it goes contrary to the idea of the event to bring back a raid and especially a boss fight that is almost unanimously seen by the player base as bad and underwhelming.

What? Do you think this is about advocating for a certain content? I'm merely pointing the fact that the Core Hound is related to Molten Core, which was brought back for that event. That's it. Simple and straightforward. There's nothing more to it.

Order is more than just geometric shapes and visuals.

It's one aspect.

And I already demonstrated how you're wrong at that: I said I expected afterlives, and we got afterlives in Shadowlands, so I got what I expected. And yes, it was backed up by already existing lore as we had afterlives already: Valhalla. Helheim. The Light.

You got Bastion, the Maw, nothing Light related. Where are the others like Ardenweald, Revendreth and Oribos? If you are easily welcoming of new afterlives then you should be welcoming of new ED areas.

And they took that tower completely as well from WoD's original concept idea.

They replaced it with another method to reach that place, a very grounded method - the Dark Portal.

So what?

So what? That means you will learn new things about this place that probably have something to do with the First Ones, the Titans' involvement and the Pantheon of Life.

Because there's nothing true to what you said. Your hints are all just bogus conspiracy-theory levels of reaching. Again: Sindragosa appearing in the Wrath opening cinematic in no way, shape or form points to the Cataclysm expansion. The felstorm and the blue glow of the sea likewise are not a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Did we get dragons afterwards? We did. Will we see the Emerald Dream soon? We will.

Irrelevant. The point is that we had, multiple times, to different places in the Emerald Dream. And they all look the same, except when they're corrupted by the Nightmare.

It could very well be multiple areas of the same single zone. Shadowlands showed us that no matter how many times you visited that grey filter, the Shadowlands ended up being different. It might very well be that all of these verdant forests you've seen are just the entrance to the realm - nothing more than an in-between.

It doesn't matter. Because you're questioning the fact that Shadowlands is much bigger than Azeroth.

No, i'm questioning how it will be represented in the game.

*shrug* I do not know. Maybe because the artist who designed it thought the concept of the Emerald Dream fits better on that corner instead of the fire realm, or the void realm, or the holy realm?

Why not order, the ones who supposedly created it?
The fact that you cannot answer this question shows that you don't know everything about the ED like you claim you do.

You're aware that the Emerald Dream is not your typical zone, or even dimension, right?

We're talking game-wise. Every zone has several named places within it.

Doesn't matter. Because, again, the map you pointed out is not the same as Outland. The map you posted is Draenor pre-explosion but also post-corruption. So it's not the same as Outland.

They called it Draenor. It doesn't matter what you currently have because that's how they imagined it back then.

And will likely still lack even after Dragonflight. And I know what the developers can do. They can turn the Emerald Dream into an extension of Maldraxxus, making it an entire realm of nothing but living flesh and pustules and malformed undead abominations shambling around. Or they can make the Emerald Dream into a never-ending desert of purple sand. But the point is that the Emerald Dream is one thing, and one thing only: forests. Forests, forests, forests. Changing that means making the Emerald Dream into something it's not.

For you, maybe, because you're so hooked on that green forest image. Like they've showed you with every expansion, places that get introduced, even if we've known them, get new appearances.

They don't need materials. Just tools. Materials exist all around them, since all they need is stone and wood. And, again, permanent portals were created in Ashran.

Not all materials are the same. And this is as silly as having portals in the Shadowlands, in which we were supposedly stuck.

Nope. Absolutely nope. Because who designed the human garrison, for example, was a human, not a draenei.

Obviously.
You don't get the Orcs vs Humans reference, do you?

Irrelevant. SoO was not there to be a hint to the next expansion.

Sure it wasn't...

I can grasp metaphors just fine. I just don't accept bullshit.

Give an example of one you did get.

Well above yours, at least.

Your "predictions" missed the mark on basically everything. Not to mention you can hardly call it "predictions" when basically everything you claim you predicted have already happened by the time you made the predictions. After all, you made your """"""""""prediction"""""""""" threat in 2019, when all the expansions in your list have already been long released. What you did there was akin to saying, today, "I predict Obama will be the president of the United States in 2009."

The only actual "prediction" of yours that actually sounded like an actual prediction, about the "light and dark" from BfA, is wrong. Even you admitted that. And as for your Shadowlands -> Dragonflight thingie? Again, you're wrong. Because your premises were all wrong. Aside from how he came to be the way he is, Bolvar has nothing to do with dragons, especially black dragons, and especially Wrathion.

Not to mention you took quite the shotgun approach there, considering you went as so far as to claim that the color of Shadowlands' logo "hinted at dragons".

I didn't say i predicted previous expansions. I showed how their cinematics and last raids predicted the following expansions. And then, i applied it to BfA, Shadowlands and Dragonflight. Are you denying Light vs Void is a incoming theme?
See why i tell you you can't grasp anything that isn't literal. No one said that Bolvar had anything to do with Dragons. My claim was that his appearance evoked that of Deathwing's. Which, makes a lot of sense considering he appeared on the 3.3.5 login screen just before Cataclysm, the Deathwing expansion. Did we get Black Dragons in Dragonflight? We did. There's quite an emphasis of that flight, to be honest.

What? Where did i refer to the Shadowlands' logo?

"The titans (sometimes capitalized) are a race of colossal, planet-sized cosmic beings"

That's not an answer. Where does it say they were shrunk?
Wanna see not-planet sized Titans? There you go:



Are demons planet-sized?

It's not "translated". We just see a part of it.

And that's all you'll probably see. They can't come up with infinite realms.

Because they were greatly diminished and weakened after millennia of torture.

I didn't know it causes shrinking. Can i get any source for that? Look up above for other instances of shrunken titans.

We only fight parts of it. N'Zoth, for example? All the tentacles, pustules and eyes we saw in Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms are part of N'Zoth's body.

We've already been through it. For you to fight him in a raid environment, they downscaled him into the size of a large octopus.

The felstorm, the blue glow in the sea, and the old, mossy stone watchers are not references to the Emerald Dream. There are no reference to the Emerald Dream in the Dragonflight's opening cinematic. Case closed.

And i guess the mounts and transmog set aren't either.

[Djaye]

Should be an expansion that utilizes the entirety of Azeroth. would be a great way of making the world relevant again without diminishing the old world.
you could transfer from real world to the emerald dream and back at any of the druid groves, dragon isles, dragonblight or the Jade Forest

[Ielenia]

Like?

Core hound, Steamscale Incinertor, the mounts in the "cat pack", the Dreadwake, the mount we get from killing the Jailer, etc.

And which was the theme of the next expansion: dragons.

Irrelevant, because that is not the reason Sindragosa is in that cinematic. And Cataclysm wasn't "about dragons", it was about the cataclysm brought to Azeroth because of Deathwing and its consequences. Otherwise, for an expansion "based on dragons", kinda strange that of all 13 dungeons in Cataclysm, only 2 are dragon-related and not even dragon-themed, and of the 6 raids, only 2 were dragon-themed.

What? Do you think this is about advocating for a certain content? I'm merely pointing the fact that the Core Hound is related to Molten Core, which was brought back for that event. That's it. Simple and straightforward. There's nothing more to it.

Because it doesn't fit your narrative. That's why. Saying "this mount means something, and this other mount that is the exact same thing as the previous mount doesn't" is cherry-picking. Why would a mount is a hint, but another mount added in the exact same way is not a hint?

It's one aspect.

So you admit it's more than just shapes and visuals.

You got Bastion, the Maw, nothing Light related. Where are the others like Ardenweald, Revendreth and Oribos? If you are easily welcoming of new afterlives then you should be welcoming of new ED areas.

Irrelevant. Because, like I said, I was not expecting any specific afterlife in Shadowlands. However, for the Emerald Dream, I am expecting specific things due to all the information about the Emerald Dream that we have.

Did we get dragons afterwards? We did.

Irrelevant. At best, a coincidence.

It could very well be multiple areas of the same single zone. Shadowlands showed us that no matter how many times you visited that grey filter, the Shadowlands ended up being different. It might very well be that all of these verdant forests you've seen are just the entrance to the realm - nothing more than an in-between.

Unless you want to claim that the Emerald Dream we know of is not the real Emerald Dream, like you claim is the case with the Veil, your argument doesn't really work.

No, i'm questioning how it will be represented in the game.

The Emerald Dream, at best, is going to be represented in-game in the form of a single zone, maybe split in two or three parts like Argus was.

Why not order, the ones who supposedly created it?

Why is Tyr casting holy magic instead of arcane since he is a being of order? Why is his weapon imbued with holy magic and not arcane magic because it was created by a being of order?

They called it Draenor. It doesn't matter what you currently have because that's how they imagined it back then.

And what we had then is not the same thing as what we got now. TBC's Outland is a heavily modified version of Draenor. Again: that planet went through three stages in its existence: "Draenor", which was before the Legion came, "The Red Planet", which is when the Legion took over the orcs and massacred the draenei, and "Outland", which is after the planet blew up due to portal overload.

Not all materials are the same. And this is as silly as having portals in the Shadowlands, in which we were supposedly stuck.

Nothing you wrote there is right. Wood is wood, and stone is stone. We could clearly see that the stone and wood in Draenor are essentially the same as what we got on Azeroth. And on top of that, no, we were most definitely not stuck in the Shadowlands: as Night Fae, we're sent back to the mortal realm several times. Also, Calia and Taelia showing up mid-expansion. We also have simple folk like the phony amulet vendor Griftah in Oribos, and we even see the other leaders of the Horde and Alliance showing up.

You don't get the Orcs vs Humans reference, do you?

The Garrisons are not there to be an "orcs vs humans" reference. Not to mention that all Alliance and Horde settlements look the same unless they're spear-headed by a single faction.

I didn't say i predicted previous expansions. I showed how their cinematics and last raids predicted the following expansions. And then, i applied it to BfA, Shadowlands and Dragonflight.

And you failed, because what proceeded BfA was not a "light vs shadow" expansion. And, again, there is nothing that hints to "dragons" in the Shadowlands cinematic.

My claim was that his appearance evoked that of Deathwing's. Which, makes a lot of sense considering he appeared on the 3.3.5 login screen just before Cataclysm, the Deathwing expansion.

And the reason he was there is because he was instated as the new Lich King, so it made sense for him to be in place of Arthas in the loading screen.

What? Where did i refer to the Shadowlands' logo?

"Moreover, the chromatic color of the Shadowlands could imply at the involvement of the Bronze Dragonflight next expansion." The only 'bronze' is in the logo.

That's not an answer. Where does it say they were shrunk?

... And you have the gall to accuse me of "wanting things literally exposed". If the lore says the Titans are planet-sized beings, and when we interact with them, they're roughly three stories tall, then guess what? I means they shrunk to allow for interactions with the much smaller mortal races.

I didn't know it causes shrinking. Can i get any source for that? Look up above for other instances of shrunken titans.

Read the WoWpedia article about the Titans. They were killed, and part of their essences were kept hostage and tortured for millennia.

We've already been through it. For you to fight him in a raid environment, they downscaled him into the size of a large octopus.

They didn't. We just fought what can technically be considered his 'brain'. Again, the old gold's body is massive. It wasn't "shrunk".

[Bandit446]

A written novel with pictures

[username993720]

Core hound, Steamscale Incinertor, the mounts in the "cat pack", the Dreadwake, the mount we get from killing the Jailer, etc.

Core Hound was attached to a certain event; steamscale incinerator we still don't know - could still be relevant in this expansion; the pack mounts is just rebranding; the Dreadwake is attached to the celebration of "talk like a pirate day"; the Jailer mount is tied to Zereth Mortis.

Irrelevant, because that is not the reason Sindragosa is in that cinematic. And Cataclysm wasn't "about dragons", it was about the cataclysm brought to Azeroth because of Deathwing and its consequences. Otherwise, for an expansion "based on dragons", kinda strange that of all 13 dungeons in Cataclysm, only 2 are dragon-related and not even dragon-themed, and of the 6 raids, only 2 were dragon-themed.

Cataclysm isn't a Dragon-themed expansion? What about all the flights? Deathwing, the big baddy? Even the Elementals were relevant just like they are now, in Dragonflight.

Because it doesn't fit your narrative. That's why. Saying "this mount means something, and this other mount that is the exact same thing as the previous mount doesn't" is cherry-picking. Why would a mount is a hint, but another mount added in the exact same way is not a hint?

Because we know what it is. Do we know what the sunwarmed furline is?

So you admit it's more than just shapes and visuals.

What about the Emerald Dream's lush forest says order to you?

Irrelevant. Because, like I said, I was not expecting any specific afterlife in Shadowlands. However, for the Emerald Dream, I am expecting specific things due to all the information about the Emerald Dream that we have.

I was expecting something akin to the veil like we've seen multiple times. And there comes Blizzard and subverts all of our expectations. Now, when approaching an ED expansion with the same kind of mindset, we should be prepared to face new locations, new creatures and new stories to be told.

Irrelevant. At best, a coincidence.

Unless you want to claim that the Emerald Dream we know of is not the real Emerald Dream, like you claim is the case with the Veil, your argument doesn't really work.

The veil is linked to the Shadowlands. The Emerald Dream we saw might be linked to the plane of Life and serve as its lobby.

The Emerald Dream, at best, is going to be represented in-game in the form of a single zone, maybe split in two or three parts like Argus was.

Could be.
That would be a shame, though, since Argus was so monotonous.

Why is Tyr casting holy magic instead of arcane since he is a being of order? Why is his weapon imbued with holy magic and not arcane magic because it was created by a being of order?

Titans delve into different magics. Doesn't mean they are responsible for their creation.

And what we had then is not the same thing as what we got now. TBC's Outland is a heavily modified version of Draenor. Again: that planet went through three stages in its existence: "Draenor", which was before the Legion came, "The Red Planet", which is when the Legion took over the orcs and massacred the draenei, and "Outland", which is after the planet blew up due to portal overload.

Now you're getting it.
Blizzard expands, develops and innovates.

Nothing you wrote there is right. Wood is wood, and stone is stone. We could clearly see that the stone and wood in Draenor are essentially the same as what we got on Azeroth. And on top of that, no, we were most definitely not stuck in the Shadowlands: as Night Fae, we're sent back to the mortal realm several times. Also, Calia and Taelia showing up mid-expansion. We also have simple folk like the phony amulet vendor Griftah in Oribos, and we even see the other leaders of the Horde and Alliance showing up.

That was the issue. Like it was some kind of a tourists' vacation place. We supposedly sent our best heroes in there and there shows some nobodies to check it out.

The Garrisons are not there to be an "orcs vs humans" reference. Not to mention that all Alliance and Horde settlements look the same unless they're spear-headed by a single faction.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warcraft_II_buildings

And you failed, because what proceeded BfA was not a "light vs shadow" expansion. And, again, there is nothing that hints to "dragons" in the Shadowlands cinematic.

And i admitted that. But, Light vs Void is still a widely accepted future expansion theme.
And Dragons were hinted in the Shadowlands cinematic, specifically Deathwing, who in that time was reminiscent of Wrathion who had a corrupted model.

And the reason he was there is because he was instated as the new Lich King, so it made sense for him to be in place of Arthas in the loading screen.

And by mere chance, his charred body resembles that of Deathwing.

"Moreover, the chromatic color of the Shadowlands could imply at the involvement of the Bronze Dragonflight next expansion." The only 'bronze' is in the logo.

No. Look at the picture. When the veil is broken, the color of the sky is somewhat bronze.

... And you have the gall to accuse me of "wanting things literally exposed". If the lore says the Titans are planet-sized beings, and when we interact with them, they're roughly three stories tall, then guess what? I means they shrunk to allow for interactions with the much smaller mortal races.

Finally, you get what i was saying. They can change sizes to fit the situation they're in. Similar to dragons, who can appear as small mortals or giant dragons. They kind of have to, otherwise they would have an unfair advantage. And how do planet-size beings struggle against little demons unless they are their size? (Don't tell me fel. At those size differences, it would have little impact. It would be like an insect biting you at best).

Read the WoWpedia article about the Titans. They were killed, and part of their essences were kept hostage and tortured for millennia.

Couldn't find where it states it causes shrinking.

They didn't. We just fought what can technically be considered his 'brain'. Again, the old gold's body is massive. It wasn't "shrunk".

Yogg-Saron's Brain:

Yogg-Saron:

[Ielenia]

Core Hound was attached to a certain event; steamscale incinerator we still don't know - could still be relevant in this expansion; the pack mounts is just rebranding; the Dreadwake is attached to the celebration of "talk like a pirate day"; the Jailer mount is tied to Zereth Mortis.

And so is the Obsidian Worldbreaker attached to a certain event: the WoW's 15th anniversary event. You're debunking yourself there and you don't even see it. "The Jailer mount is tied to Zereth Mortis". Well, duh! Just like Wrath's cinematic is tied to Wrath, and not to Cataclysm.

Because we know what it is.

We do not. And that is the point. Your assertions are not facts.

Do we know what the sunwarmed furline is?

You tell me, since you're the one claiming "mounts hint at expansions except the ones I don't really care to really think about"

What about the Emerald Dream's lush forest says order to you?

Every single mention, description, and visual of the Emerald Dream in these almost two decades of WoW? I mean, have you seen the Emerald Dream at all?

I was expecting something akin to the veil like we've seen multiple times. And there comes Blizzard and subverts all of our expectations. Now, when approaching an ED expansion with the same kind of mindset, we should be prepared to face new locations, new creatures and new stories to be told.

So you admit you want Blizzard to say "the Emerald Dream is not the Emerald Dream"?

I'll just point out the hypocrisy, here: if you're going to claim that my arguments are wrong because I answer your questions with "I don't know" or in any manner that is not satisfactory to you, perhaps you shouldn't respond to other people's arguments with just a smiley.

The veil is linked to the Shadowlands. The Emerald Dream we saw might be linked to the plane of Life and serve as its lobby.

Again: so you want the Emerald Dream we know of and have visited countless times in the past to not be the actual Emerald Dream? Because, again, if the Emerald Dream is "just a lobby", doesn't that invalidate your "it has so much potential!" claims? Because then an expansion on the Plane of Life wouldn't based on the Emerald Dream, much like Shadowlands is not based on the Veil.

Could be.
That would be a shame, though, since Argus was so monotonous.

Well, the Emerald Dream is forests upon forests, so it would be just as monotonous to you, I imagine.

Titans delve into different magics. Doesn't mean they are responsible for their creation.

They could bind living entities to different planes, like they bound the elementals to the elemental planes (that they created) and Freya bound the spirits of animals and the wild gods to the Emerald Dream. So yes, they have the ability to at least interfere with the other planes.

Now you're getting it.
Blizzard expands, develops and innovates.

You don't get it. Old Draenor, the Red Planet, and Outlant are literal examples of "changing things into something they're not." The Red Planet is no longer the same Draenor from before the Legion arrived. Same thing with Outland.

That was the issue. Like it was some kind of a tourists' vacation place. We supposedly sent our best heroes in there and there shows some nobodies to check it out.

Then what is the issue? Because it feels to me that you're just flip-flopping around.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warcraft_II_buildings

Irrelevant. The Alliance as a whole has human architecture, and that is demonstrable in every military settlement that isn't occupied by a single faction. Same thing with the Horde: the whole of the Horde has orcish architecture, and that is demonstrable in every military settlement that isn't occupied by a single faction.

And Dragons were hinted in the Shadowlands cinematic,

They were not. Period. Stating they were is to be willfully dishonest.

And by mere chance, his charred body resembles that of Deathwing.

Charred objects resemble charred objects. More news at 11. In other words: yes, it was merely coincidence.

No. Look at the picture. When the veil is broken, the color of the sky is somewhat bronze.

... Because it's a transition from blue to the dark orangish sky around Torghast. This isn't a reference to the bronze dragonflight because they do not deal with dimension travel. What you're doing is akin to saying that the expansion after TBC would be about the green dragonflight because in the TBC opening cinematic the Dark Portal glows green at the beginning, and the whole time that Illidan is on the ground in the cinematic the whole screen has a green tint, and then his tattoos glow green as well.

Finally, you get what i was saying.

No, I don't. Because Titans are not going to "downsize" their planet to allow the mortal races of Azeroth to properly interact with everything there.

Couldn't find where it states it causes shrinking.

Do you believe that a slice of cake is the same size as the entire cake? Because that is what happened, here. As for the demons, they would have to downsize themselves to be able to attack the demons without destroying the planet they demons are on.

Yogg-Saron's Brain:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFeRgxOXYAEPS7f.jpg
Yogg-Saron:
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...SS8Msmkj_araMM

That is not the entirety of Yogg-Saron.

[username993720]

And so is the Obsidian Worldbreaker attached to a certain event: the WoW's 15th anniversary event. You're debunking yourself there and you don't even see it. "The Jailer mount is tied to Zereth Mortis". Well, duh! Just like Wrath's cinematic is tied to Wrath, and not to Cataclysm.

So is the Core Hound, but they renewed a certain raid with it and that's why they chose it. Why did they choose a Deathwing mount in particular for that anniversary?

We do not. And that is the point. Your assertions are not facts.

You do not know what a Core Hound is and where it belongs?

You tell me, since you're the one claiming "mounts hint at expansions except the ones I don't really care to really think about"

"With eyes of pure emerald and the tail of a fox, this magical cat can carry you effortlessly from land to land. But it’s favorite places in all of Azeroth happen to be anywhere the sun shines through the autumn leaves, especially when a glowing campfire is nearby."

I'm going to guess it has something to do with An'she and the Emerald Dream.

Every single mention, description, and visual of the Emerald Dream in these almost two decades of WoW? I mean, have you seen the Emerald Dream at all?

Can you be specific?

So you admit you want Blizzard to say "the Emerald Dream is not the Emerald Dream"?

It is. Just not the entirety of it. You've just seen its threshold.

I'll just point out the hypocrisy, here: if you're going to claim that my arguments are wrong because I answer your questions with "I don't know" or in any manner that is not satisfactory to you, perhaps you shouldn't respond to other people's arguments with just a smiley.

I just find it funny that you use "coincidence" to weasel out of an argument.

Again: so you want the Emerald Dream we know of and have visited countless times in the past to not be the actual Emerald Dream? Because, again, if the Emerald Dream is "just a lobby", doesn't that invalidate your "it has so much potential!" claims? Because then an expansion on the Plane of Life wouldn't based on the Emerald Dream, much like Shadowlands is not based on the Veil.

Nah, it can be split into two if you want. The green forest that just serves as its entering point and the rest of the Emerald Dream. Or, it could be one zone.

Well, the Emerald Dream is forests upon forests, so it would be just as monotonous to you, I imagine.

And don't you think it can be something more, given they just recently gave it a new area, "Thros", that was never mentioned before in its countless descriptions?

They could bind living entities to different planes, like they bound the elementals to the elemental planes (that they created) and Freya bound the spirits of animals and the wild gods to the Emerald Dream. So yes, they have the ability to at least interfere with the other planes.

So, she's imprisoning them?
The Elemental planes are prisons made by the titanic keepers themselves, not already established Elemental domains (which, could be retconned considering the new lore we just got in Dragonflight).
So, it is unlikely that Freya created the Emerald Dream, attached it to the Plane of Life and forcefully bound all of its creatures.

You don't get it. Old Draenor, the Red Planet, and Outlant are literal examples of "changing things into something they're not." The Red Planet is no longer the same Draenor from before the Legion arrived. Same thing with Outland.

So, you blame Blizzard developers of ruining their own game and lore?

Then what is the issue? Because it feels to me that you're just flip-flopping around.

That we're not really stuck when we should be.

Irrelevant. The Alliance as a whole has human architecture, and that is demonstrable in every military settlement that isn't occupied by a single faction. Same thing with the Horde: the whole of the Horde has orcish architecture, and that is demonstrable in every military settlement that isn't occupied by a single faction.

Dude, are you in some kind of a denial? These are specific garrison buildings.

They were not. Period. Stating they were is to be willfully dishonest.

That's because you wish to not see it.

Charred objects resemble charred objects. More news at 11. In other words: yes, it was merely coincidence.

Once again the use of "coincidence".
I like your method of dropping an argument.

... Because it's a transition from blue to the dark orangish sky around Torghast. This isn't a reference to the bronze dragonflight because they do not deal with dimension travel. What you're doing is akin to saying that the expansion after TBC would be about the green dragonflight because in the TBC opening cinematic the Dark Portal glows green at the beginning, and the whole time that Illidan is on the ground in the cinematic the whole screen has a green tint, and then his tattoos glow green as well.

And again, you're taking things literally trying to explain to me the reason behind it. We're talking coloration.
And, by the way, i didn't analyze TBC.

No, I don't. Because Titans are not going to "downsize" their planet to allow the mortal races of Azeroth to properly interact with everything there.

It's already downsized. For gameplay reasons.

Do you believe that a slice of cake is the same size as the entire cake? Because that is what happened, here.

They weren't split into pieces.

As for the demons, they would have to downsize themselves to be able to attack the demons without destroying the planet they demons are on.

They fought in the twisting nether. And not all planets are important, containing world-souls.

That is not the entirety of Yogg-Saron.

Where is it, then?

[Ielenia]

So is the Core Hound, but they renewed a certain raid with it and that's why they chose it. Why did they choose a Deathwing mount in particular for that anniversary?

Probably because Cataclysm was part of the celebration, and while the Dragon Soul raid is still viewed as a bad raid to this date, Deathwing is still iconic.

"With eyes of pure emerald and the tail of a fox, this magical cat can carry you effortlessly from land to land. But it’s favorite places in all of Azeroth happen to be anywhere the sun shines through the autumn leaves, especially when a glowing campfire is nearby."

I'm going to guess it has something to do with An'she and the Emerald Dream.

And I'm going to say you're wrong. An'she is not related to the Emerald Dream. And, likewise, the cat has nothing to do with the Emerald Dream.

Can you be specific?

I already gave plenty of examples in our discussion. If you didn't pay attention, that's on you.

It is. Just not the entirety of it. You've just seen its threshold.

It's not a "threshold". The Emerald Dream is just a pocket dimension that exists for Azeroth only.

I just find it funny that you use "coincidence" to weasel out of an argument.

Not to drop it, but to conclude it. Because what I'm saying is a fact. Blizzard did not make Bolvar Fordragon's post-Wrathgate form as a reference to the Cataclysm expansion, much less the Dragonflight's expansion.

Nah, it can be split into two if you want. The green forest that just serves as its entering point and the rest of the Emerald Dream. Or, it could be one zone.

So the Emerald Dream, and not the Emerald Dream?

And don't you think it can be something more, given they just recently gave it a new area, "Thros", that was never mentioned before in its countless descriptions?

Thros, or, in other words, the Emerald Nightmare? The simple reason that it's named 'Thros' is because the drust didn't know what the Emerald Nightmare was at the time. No different than the draenei naming Draenor despite orcs and orgres living in it for countless generations before the draenei's arrival, and the planet already having a name: Dawgar.

The Elemental planes are prisons made by the titanic keepers themselves, not already established Elemental domains (which, could be retconned considering the new lore we just got in Dragonflight).

So you admit that the Titan Keepers are powerful enough to create dimensions (elemental planes)... but also they're not powerful enough to create dimensions? (Emerald Dream). You're engaging in double-standards here.

So, you blame Blizzard developers of ruining their own game and lore?

Wow. That is so not what we're talking about, here. That is such a swerve in terms in what is being discussed, I'm surprised you didn't get whiplash.

That we're not really stuck when we should be.

Who said we were "stuck" there the entire time? It was true at the beginning, because the initial excursion to alternate Draenor was such a last-moment thing, but after that, there was time to prepare a better forward base. And as for the Shadowlands, the only place where we were truly "stuck" was in the Maw, which is supposedly a place nobody can escape, at least until we activated the waystone out of there.

Dude, are you in some kind of a denial? These are specific garrison buildings.

Dude, they're not. They're really, really not. They're literally generic Alliance and Horde buildings. "Human" and "orc" architecture are literally the default architecture of the Alliance and the Horde. That is why our garrisons look like that. Do you know what was actually a RTS reference? Warfronts.

That's because you wish to not see it.

I can't see what doesn't exist. To claim otherwise is, like I pointed out, dishonest, or delusional.

Once again the use of "coincidence".
I like your method of dropping an argument.

You mean concluding an argument. Because I'm speaking true, here. Wrath cinematic having a dragon, and then Deathwing is the BBEG of Cataclysm? Coincidence. Bolvar looks charred, and then we have Dragonflight? Coincidence.

And again, you're taking things literally trying to explain to me the reason behind it. We're talking coloration.

I'm taking things literally because that is literally what they are, and any assertion that they have some "deeper meaning" is delusional.

It's already downsized. For gameplay reasons.

How can something that doesn't exist "already be downsized"?

They weren't split into pieces.

"Though the titans of the Pantheon were dead, pieces of their spirits remained. Sargeras deemed them a great source of power, captured them, and sought to manipulate and corrupt these pieces."

They fought in the twisting nether. And not all planets are important, containing world-souls.

"Inert or not, the Pantheon had vowed to maintain and protect all worlds they visited." "Inert", in that case, meaning a planet without a world soul.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

A raid.

Wait.

[username993720]

Probably because Cataclysm was part of the celebration, and while the Dragon Soul raid is still viewed as a bad raid to this date, Deathwing is still iconic.

Deathwing is not even part of the quest associated with the anniversasy:

"The quest, [30-70] How Things "Really" Happened..., requires the completion of an epic trial of a 25-player raid that pits players against some of the most iconic bosses throughout World of Warcraft. There are three wings of the epic trial with three bosses each:

The Burning Crusade wing
Kael'thas Sunstrider
Lady Vashj
Archimonde
Wrath of the Lich King wing
Heigan the Unclean
Anub'arak
The Lich King
Cataclysm wing
Cho'gall
Nefarian
Ragnaros

And I'm going to say you're wrong. An'she is not related to the Emerald Dream. And, likewise, the cat has nothing to do with the Emerald Dream.

Elune is part of the Pantheon of Life. There is no reason why An'she wouldn't be.

I already gave plenty of examples in our discussion. If you didn't pay attention, that's on you.

You haven't.
I asked for specific hints of order about the Emerald Dream.

It's not a "threshold". The Emerald Dream is just a pocket dimension that exists for Azeroth only.

A mere pocket dimension...
So are the Halls of Valor and they don't appear on the cosmic map.

Not to drop it, but to conclude it. Because what I'm saying is a fact. Blizzard did not make Bolvar Fordragon's post-Wrathgate form as a reference to the Cataclysm expansion, much less the Dragonflight's expansion.

Do you agree it bears resemblance to Deathwing's scorched body?

So the Emerald Dream, and not the Emerald Dream?

Enough with this "not the Emerald Dream". Not everything needs to be known to you before it is introduced. Every single F-ing expansion introduced new things, even patches. Why can't you realize that?

Thros, or, in other words, the Emerald Nightmare? The simple reason that it's named 'Thros' is because the drust didn't know what the Emerald Nightmare was at the time. No different than the draenei naming Draenor despite orcs and orgres living in it for countless generations before the draenei's arrival, and the planet already having a name: Dawgar.

It is not another name for the Emerald Nightmare.
"Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was."
Offshoot - an extension, a branch.

So you admit that the Titan Keepers are powerful enough to create dimensions (elemental planes)... but also they're not powerful enough to create dimensions? (Emerald Dream). You're engaging in double-standards here.

1. The Elemental planes do not appear on the cosmic map and are not said to be the Elememtal's original planes but prisons made by the titans.
2. These plane could be retconned to not have been created by the titans since we just found out what liars they are.

Wow. That is so not what we're talking about, here. That is such a swerve in terms in what is being discussed, I'm surprised you didn't get whiplash.

You said: "they dared to change their old lore". "What we had in Warcraft 2 is not what we got in WoW".

Who said we were "stuck" there the entire time? It was true at the beginning, because the initial excursion to alternate Draenor was such a last-moment thing, but after that, there was time to prepare a better forward base. And as for the Shadowlands, the only place where we were truly "stuck" was in the Maw, which is supposedly a place nobody can escape, at least until we activated the waystone out of there.

Gives the word "stranded" a whole new meaning.

Dude, they're not. They're really, really not. They're literally generic Alliance and Horde buildings. "Human" and "orc" architecture are literally the default architecture of the Alliance and the Horde. That is why our garrisons look like that. Do you know what was actually a RTS reference? Warfronts.

Have you read the buildings' names?

I can't see what doesn't exist. To claim otherwise is, like I pointed out, dishonest, or delusional.

Anything theoretical doesn't exist in your eyes?

You mean concluding an argument. Because I'm speaking true, here. Wrath cinematic having a dragon, and then Deathwing is the BBEG of Cataclysm? Coincidence. Bolvar looks charred, and then we have Dragonflight? Coincidence.

Then your whole debate is a coincidence. I can't take you seriously when your best argument is: "just a coincidence".

I'm taking things literally because that is literally what they are, and any assertion that they have some "deeper meaning" is delusional.

No, not at all. Not everything is literal. Especially arts. There are subtexts to these kind of things.

How can something that doesn't exist "already be downsized"?

Have you forgotten its mention by a WoW developer?

"Though the titans of the Pantheon were dead, pieces of their spirits remained. Sargeras deemed them a great source of power, captured them, and sought to manipulate and corrupt these pieces."

So, it is manifested in smaller titans? These smaller titans somehow managed to capture a planet-sized titan and make him smaller (what a coincidence) when he gets to Antorus. They even scaled themselves to the size of demons before Sargeras even obliterated them. It seems like they just fit themselves to the space they're in.

"Inert or not, the Pantheon had vowed to maintain and protect all worlds they visited." "Inert", in that case, meaning a planet without a world soul.

So, what about the Twisting Nether. That is, space?
If demons aren't leeches like Old Gods, how come squashing them would harm the planet they're on?

A raid.

Wait.

Not a quest?
Come on...

[Ielenia]

Deathwing is not even part of the quest associated with the anniversasy:

I've already addressed that.

Elune is part of the Pantheon of Life.

You don't know if this "pantheon of life" even exists, much less if Elune is part of it.

There is no reason why An'she wouldn't be.

There is no reason for her to be, either. We don't even know if 'An'she' is even real, and not just a myth for the tauren. Because, unlike Elune, in which we did see her actions several times already, all we have about An'she are folklore stories from the tauren.

You haven't.
I asked for specific hints of order about the Emerald Dream.

Nature is orderly. Emerald Dream is nature. Therefore the Emerald Dream is orderly.

A mere pocket dimension...
So are the Halls of Valor and they don't appear on the cosmic map.

Because the Halls of Valor are basically irrelevant for Azeroth, whereas the Emerald Dream is the 'afterlife' for beast life as well as an important realm the green dragonflight watches over?

Enough with this "not the Emerald Dream". Not everything needs to be known to you before it is introduced. Every single F-ing expansion introduced new things, even patches. Why can't you realize that?

What you are not realizing, or you do but you're in denial, is that, unlike all the landmasses utilized as expansion main locations, such as Outland, Northrend, Broken Isles, Pandaria, etc, little to nothing was known about them. However, we already know a great deal about the Emerald Dream, having visited or at least read about the place countless time. Hell, if you're right about ED content in this expansion, we'll learn even more, which will further dry up the already dim chances of it ever being an expansion's main location.

It is not another name for the Emerald Nightmare.
"Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was."
Offshoot - an extension, a branch.

"Extension". "Branch". I.e., still part of the Emerald Nightmare. Also, look at your own quote from the wiki: "Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was." Literally what I just said.

1. The Elemental planes do not appear on the cosmic map and are not said to be the Elememtal's original planes but prisons made by the titans.

And you do know that, as far as we know, all the animals and dragons in the Emerald Dream are not native to the Dream either, right? Again, Freya bound them to that plane.

You said: "they dared to change their old lore". "What we had in Warcraft 2 is not what we got in WoW".

I never said that. I never said they "dared" anything. And also: they didn't retcon the Red Planet era of Draenor, either.

Gives the word "stranded" a whole new meaning.

We were stranded in the beginning.

Anything theoretical doesn't exist in your eyes?

A 'theory' is one thing. Wildly nonsensical speculation is another. You're doing the latter, not the former.

Then your whole debate is a coincidence. I can't take you seriously when your best argument is: "just a coincidence".

If you can't accept the facts of the situation and want to make up nonsensical "hints" and "references" that don't exist, that's on you.

No, not at all. Not everything is literal. Especially arts. There are subtexts to these kind of things.

And all your "subtexts" are all made up. Again, a felstorm is not a reference to the Emerald Dream. Bolvar is not a reference to Dragonflight.

Have you forgotten its mention by a WoW developer?

We have no mention of it in the lore. Nothing we know about it.

So, it is manifested in smaller titans? These smaller titans somehow managed to capture a planet-sized titan and make him smaller (what a coincidence) when he gets to Antorus. They even scaled themselves to the size of demons before Sargeras even obliterated them. It seems like they just fit themselves to the space they're in.

They manifested into weaker titans, who had to combine their efforts to bring Sargeras down and imprison him.

So, what about the Twisting Nether. That is, space?

The Twisting Nether is not space. Not surprised you didn't know that, honestly.

If demons aren't leeches like Old Gods, how come squashing them would harm the planet they're on?

... You serious? Attacking the demons while the Titans are in their normal form would be akin to smashing an apple with a hammer to kill an ant crawling on it. Look at Sargeras' sword. How much damage do you think it would cause to the planet if he swung it against its surface to kill demons on it?

[Hobbidaggy]

Blizzard can very well pull up new lore that the Emerald Dream is NOT the Eonar-made copy of Azeroth (that is only what Eonar would have us believe) to this point, but in fact the whole Plane of Life - whenever Blizzard wishes. In fact, the new lore books clearly establish the titans to be this deceptive, so nothing even stands in the way anymore.

At the same time, lore can be expanded to include Emerald Deserts, Emerald Mountains, Emerald Beaches at any point. That is what is called an "Expansion" when Blizzard takes a hitherto barely defined concept - like Shadowlands - and turns it into way more we previously thought before.

Search up the image: "Emerald Paradise WoW", and you will see an Emerald Dream beach. Anything goes.

Hahaha I want to go to the emerald beach it sounds majestic

[Le Conceptuel]

Where is it, then?

Beneath the bulk of Northrend, reaching as far as Grizzly Hills. He managed to reach Vordrassil with his tendrils, remember? If you look at N'Zoth in Ny'Alotha, that's roughly the size of an Old God's full body—whatever growth or organ of Yogg-Saron we're fighting in Ulduar, it's definitely not the bulk of his head.

- - - Updated - - -

... You serious? Attacking the demons while the Titans are in their normal form would be akin to smashing an apple with a hammer to kill an ant crawling on it. Look at Sargeras' sword. How much damage do you think it would cause to the planet if he swung it against its surface to kill demons on it?

Plus, the Old Gods are actually, physically burrowed into Azeroth. They seem to be like ticks, burying into the skin, whereas demons are more of a fantastical form of parasite.

[username993720]

I've already addressed that.

How is this anniversary specifically about the Cataclysm?

You don't know if this "pantheon of life" even exists, much less if Elune is part of it.

We do know. It is mentioned in the Grimoire: Shadowlands.

There is no reason for her to be, either. We don't even know if 'An'she' is even real, and not just a myth for the tauren. Because, unlike Elune, in which we did see her actions several times already, all we have about An'she are folklore stories from the tauren.

An'she is male i believe.
And, of course he's real. This is a fantasy game, not real-life. There are F-ing minotaurs, for christ sake.

Nature is orderly. Emerald Dream is nature. Therefore the Emerald Dream is orderly.

Nature is orderly?


"Remember: Life is chaos. It must be controlled". - Odyn

Because the Halls of Valor are basically irrelevant for Azeroth, whereas the Emerald Dream is the 'afterlife' for beast life as well as an important realm the green dragonflight watches over?

Irrelevant for Azeroth? Vrykul souls go there. We went there from Azeroth as Warriors.

Oh, so now the Emerald Dream is the afterlife for beast life. Tell me, what is Ardenweald then?

What you are not realizing, or you do but you're in denial, is that, unlike all the landmasses utilized as expansion main locations, such as Outland, Northrend, Broken Isles, Pandaria, etc, little to nothing was known about them. However, we already know a great deal about the Emerald Dream, having visited or at least read about the place countless time. Hell, if you're right about ED content in this expansion, we'll learn even more, which will further dry up the already dim chances of it ever being an expansion's main location.

We didn't know anything about Outland? About Northrend? Are you for real? You want to tell me players weren't familiar with these places?
Second war:

Third war:

"Extension". "Branch". I.e., still part of the Emerald Nightmare. Also, look at your own quote from the wiki: "Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was." Literally what I just said.

Does Thros look like the Emerald Nightmare? Were you aware of its existence?

And you do know that, as far as we know, all the animals and dragons in the Emerald Dream are not native to the Dream either, right? Again, Freya bound them to that plane.

Again, an artificial dimension not made by the First Ones for the realm of Life wouldn't appear on the cosmic map. Just like the Shadowlands are not realms made by the Titans for the denizens of Azeroth.

I never said that. I never said they "dared" anything. And also: they didn't retcon the Red Planet era of Draenor, either.

So, it's all good? They somewhat stuck to their lore and expanded it like they do with every expansion?

We were stranded in the beginning.

What, we didn't have magical powers in the beginning?

A 'theory' is one thing. Wildly nonsensical speculation is another. You're doing the latter, not the former.

You didn't even bother to really think about it.

If you can't accept the facts of the situation and want to make up nonsensical "hints" and "references" that don't exist, that's on you.

What facts?

And all your "subtexts" are all made up. Again, a felstorm is not a reference to the Emerald Dream. Bolvar is not a reference to Dragonflight.

Jesus christ... you're slow to understand. It's not the Felstorm in itself, but its coloration. It's not Bolvar, it's what his appearance evokes.

We have no mention of it in the lore. Nothing we know about it.

Of course we don't. They are working on it.

They manifested into weaker titans, who had to combine their efforts to bring Sargeras down and imprison him.

They had to combine forces even before their downfall, when Sargeras initially went mad. If it's their weakened state, how come they, who are not bigger than a building, can take out a planet-sized titan? And how come their beam weakens him to the point that he's their size and not a millenia of torture like you claim for them?

The Twisting Nether is not space. Not surprised you didn't know that, honestly.

It's mostly empty space.

... You serious? Attacking the demons while the Titans are in their normal form would be akin to smashing an apple with a hammer to kill an ant crawling on it. Look at Sargeras' sword. How much damage do you think it would cause to the planet if he swung it against its surface to kill demons on it?

You've never picked up an ant without destroying its environment? You know, the titans are capable of delicate, precise operations. They're not brutes.

Hahaha I want to go to the emerald beach it sounds majestic

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...20190519024627

Beneath the bulk of Northrend, reaching as far as Grizzly Hills. He managed to reach Vordrassil with his tendrils, remember? If you look at N'Zoth in Ny'Alotha, that's roughly the size of an Old God's full body—whatever growth or organ of Yogg-Saron we're fighting in Ulduar, it's definitely not the bulk of his head.

So, he looks like that?

[Ielenia]

How is this anniversary specifically about the Cataclysm?

Strawman. I never said it was specifically about the Cataclysm expansion.

We do know. It is mentioned in the Grimoire: Shadowlands.

We don't. The Grimoire is nothing but the personal musings of a Broker, not a factual lore book like Before the Storm or The Shattering.

And, of course he's real. This is a fantasy game, not real-life. There are F-ing minotaurs, for christ sake.

Wrong. Just because it's a fantasy game, it doesn't mean everything is real.

Nature is orderly?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...15/unknown.png

"Remember: Life is chaos. It must be controlled". - Odyn

Odyn? The same Odyn who, as you have said in your arguments, has no problem lying to push a narrative, when you mentioned that he ordered to "tell mortals the Titans did it"? The same Odyn that lied to his own valarjar regarding how his daughter Helya turned into the monstrosity she is now?

That Odyn?

Irrelevant for Azeroth? Vrykul souls go there. We went there from Azeroth as Warriors.

It's irrelevant because its existence is irrelevant. Without the Halls of Valor, vrykul souls would go to the Shadowlands instead. The Halls of Valor was borne out of pettiness of a single keeper because everyone else didn't agree with him. The reason for the Halls of Valor's existence is literally the story of the spoiled kid leaving his group of friends and taking his toys with him because the others didn't say 'yes' to everything he wanted.

We didn't know anything about Outland? About Northrend? Are you for real? You want to tell me players weren't familiar with these places?

Good job showing artwork that didn't exist back in the day. Look at Khadgar. During that time he was an old, long-bearded dude. Also, I never claimed "we didn't know anything". I said we knew little to nothing. There's a difference.

Does Thros look like the Emerald Nightmare? Were you aware of its existence?

Nowhere near the same thing. Are you actually comparing player knowledge with character knowledge?

Again, an artificial dimension not made by the First Ones for the realm of Life wouldn't appear on the cosmic map.

How do you know that for certain?

So, it's all good? They somewhat stuck to their lore and expanded it like they do with every expansion?

They didn't. They massively changed Draenor we knew of from the RTS games into Outland for TBC, and then again for WoD.

What, we didn't have magical powers in the beginning?

... Are you for real right now? Seriously? You didn't play WoD at all, did you?

You didn't even bother to really think about it.

I have, which is why I am telling you all this.

Jesus christ... you're slow to understand. It's not the Felstorm in itself, but its coloration.

I'm the slow one?

Which in the context of this talk is the same thing: you are using the felstorm as a reference to the Emerald Dream, because you're using an attribute of the felstorm.

Fair enough.

They had to combine forces even before their downfall, when Sargeras initially went mad. If it's their weakened state, how come they, who are not bigger than a building, can take out a planet-sized titan? And how come their beam weakens him to the point that he's their size and not a millenia of torture like you claim for them?

And I'm the slow one. I guess I'll have to explain it to you: Sargeras caught the Titans unaware. He didn't attack and kill them all at the same time. And as far as the weakened Titans taking on Sargeras and making him smaller? That is why they had to combine their forces to imprison him.

It's mostly empty space.

That doesn't mean the Twisting Nether is the space in the mortal realm. Those are two separate dimensions.

You've never picked up an ant without destroying its environment? You know, the titans are capable of delicate, precise operations. They're not brutes.

Do you even read what you write? You really can't see the nonsense you just wrote? I know I made the comparison to ants, but the demons (along with all the living beings on those planets) would be much, much smaller than ants. And if the Titans have to shrink themselves down to the planet to be able to deal with the demonic infestations, then that means they lack the ability to make such "minute, precise operations".

So, he looks like that?

Think of old gods as fungi. The caps you see are but a tiny part of its body.

[Le Conceptuel]

So, he looks like that?

Effectively, or something. It is also possible that the thing we fought wasn't even his head so much as a tiny growth or undefined organ, given the size of his brain is markedly larger than that of his "body" that we see in Ulduar.

- - - Updated - - -

Nature is orderly?


"Remember: Life is chaos. It must be controlled". - Odyn

Odyn? The same Odyn who, as you have said in your arguments, has no problem lying to push a narrative, when you mentioned that he ordered to "tell mortals the Titans did it"? The same Odyn that lied to his own valarjar regarding how his daughter Helya turned into the monstrosity she is now?

To be fair, I think that neither claim is wholly accurate. Life is disorderly insofar as it is not ordered and orderly insofar as it is ordered—once the Titans created the Emerald Dream, it fit their criteria for "orderly" and beforehand it did not. They have a far more concrete, as well as far more egotistical, definition of what constitutes "order" than most people would, and "chaos" presumably = not order (in the context in which the Titans perceive it). Otherwise, there's plenty of debate to be had about whether nature is inherently ordered or chaotic, with different reasons to believe either.

[username993720]

Strawman. I never said it was specifically about the Cataclysm expansion.

Then, there's no reason to give out a Deathwing mount, is there?

We don't. The Grimoire is nothing but the personal musings of a Broker, not a factual lore book like Before the Storm or The Shattering.

Just like the Chronicles?
Just because someone might be biased, it doesn't mean they pull it out of their assess. They wrote it for a reason, not just for fun and giggles.

Wrong. Just because it's a fantasy game, it doesn't mean everything is real.

What isn't real?
The goddamn Moon goddess can be real but not the Sun one? Come on...

Odyn? The same Odyn who, as you have said in your arguments, has no problem lying to push a narrative, when you mentioned that he ordered to "tell mortals the Titans did it"? The same Odyn that lied to his own valarjar regarding how his daughter Helya turned into the monstrosity she is now?

Oh, so you agree that they are liars?

It's irrelevant because its existence is irrelevant. Without the Halls of Valor, vrykul souls would go to the Shadowlands instead. The Halls of Valor was borne out of pettiness of a single keeper because everyone else didn't agree with him. The reason for the Halls of Valor's existence is literally the story of the spoiled kid leaving his group of friends and taking his toys with him because the others didn't say 'yes' to everything he wanted.

It's irrelevant in the cosmic scale of things because, like you said, it is a Titanic Watcher's domain. Unlike the Emerald Dream, which is on the cosmic scale of stuff and therefore must have been created by the First Ones.

Good job showing artwork that didn't exist back in the day. Look at Khadgar. During that time he was an old, long-bearded dude. Also, I never claimed "we didn't know anything". I said we knew little to nothing. There's a difference.

We knew about as much as we know about the Emerald Dream. We knew about Hellfire Peninsula (because it featured the most) and the frozen wastes of Northrend. What do we know about the Emerald Dream? That it is a green, lush forest. How much would that constitute? One zone. What happens when these places we had visual notion about turn into expansions? They retain their iconic visual (red planet, snowy tundra) and Expand upon it into More Zones.

Nowhere near the same thing. Are you actually comparing player knowledge with character knowledge?

What?
The fact is that you never knew it existed in all of the ED's numerous descriptions and appearances. That means that they introduce new things into an already established place.

How do you know that for certain?

Because you've got the Shadowlands there. The 6 (7, if you count Elementals) forces were made by the First Ones. You think all of that would appear on the cosmic map and some Titanic Watcher's (not even a Titan) domain would be the exception?

They didn't. They massively changed Draenor we knew of from the RTS games into Outland for TBC, and then again for WoD.

Good. That's how you know established lore can change.

... Are you for real right now? Seriously? You didn't play WoD at all, did you?

Let's see... Dark Portal gets blasted. Khadgar can still use his magical powers. Waiting for the player to establish a Garrison. Now would be a good time for Khadgar to use his magical powers.

I have, which is why I am telling you all this.

Seems like you just like to argue, because we've been doing this since that dreaded Demon Hunter races thread, in which you lost.

I'm the slow one?

I've also used Anduin's Light magic and Sylvanas' Banshee powers as hints towards Light and Void themes. Doesn't mean i meant Anduin and Sylvanas are the hints.

And I'm the slow one. I guess I'll have to explain it to you: Sargeras caught the Titans unaware. He didn't attack and kill them all at the same time. And as far as the weakened Titans taking on Sargeras and making him smaller? That is why they had to combine their forces to imprison him.

They were subdued by him because they are vulnerable to Fel magic.

And again, you're talking about entities that were not bigger than a house imprisoning a planet-sized titan. Does this seem reasonable?

That doesn't mean the Twisting Nether is the space in the mortal realm. Those are two separate dimensions.

I meant the empty space.
Titans can still squash them on floating space rocks they inhabit.

Do you even read what you write? You really can't see the nonsense you just wrote? I know I made the comparison to ants, but the demons (along with all the living beings on those planets) would be much, much smaller than ants. And if the Titans have to shrink themselves down to the planet to be able to deal with the demonic infestations, then that means they lack the ability to make such "minute, precise operations".

They would purposefully give themselves a disadvantage against the demons?
By the way, Aman'thul was quite precise when he pulled off Y'shaarj.

Think of old gods as fungi. The caps you see are but a tiny part of its body.

I'd love to see a full concept art of that claim.

Effectively, or something. It is also possible that the thing we fought wasn't even his head so much as a tiny growth or undefined organ, given the size of his brain is markedly larger than that of his "body" that we see in Ulduar.

Remarkable how Spongebob can capture all of that:

[Le Conceptuel]

I'd love to see a full concept art of that claim.

I'll do you one better—here's (presumably still a small part of) N'Zoth's full body in-game.



In this image, N'Zoth's full body dominates the skybox and expands into the organic fleshscape below. The far smaller body we end up fighting is an unidentifiable miscellaneous organ inside of his body.