The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[Le Conceptuel]

So, he looks like that?

Effectively, or something. It is also possible that the thing we fought wasn't even his head so much as a tiny growth or undefined organ, given the size of his brain is markedly larger than that of his "body" that we see in Ulduar.

- - - Updated - - -

Nature is orderly?


"Remember: Life is chaos. It must be controlled". - Odyn

Odyn? The same Odyn who, as you have said in your arguments, has no problem lying to push a narrative, when you mentioned that he ordered to "tell mortals the Titans did it"? The same Odyn that lied to his own valarjar regarding how his daughter Helya turned into the monstrosity she is now?

To be fair, I think that neither claim is wholly accurate. Life is disorderly insofar as it is not ordered and orderly insofar as it is ordered—once the Titans created the Emerald Dream, it fit their criteria for "orderly" and beforehand it did not. They have a far more concrete, as well as far more egotistical, definition of what constitutes "order" than most people would, and "chaos" presumably = not order (in the context in which the Titans perceive it). Otherwise, there's plenty of debate to be had about whether nature is inherently ordered or chaotic, with different reasons to believe either.

[username993720]

Strawman. I never said it was specifically about the Cataclysm expansion.

Then, there's no reason to give out a Deathwing mount, is there?

We don't. The Grimoire is nothing but the personal musings of a Broker, not a factual lore book like Before the Storm or The Shattering.

Just like the Chronicles?
Just because someone might be biased, it doesn't mean they pull it out of their assess. They wrote it for a reason, not just for fun and giggles.

Wrong. Just because it's a fantasy game, it doesn't mean everything is real.

What isn't real?
The goddamn Moon goddess can be real but not the Sun one? Come on...

Odyn? The same Odyn who, as you have said in your arguments, has no problem lying to push a narrative, when you mentioned that he ordered to "tell mortals the Titans did it"? The same Odyn that lied to his own valarjar regarding how his daughter Helya turned into the monstrosity she is now?

Oh, so you agree that they are liars?

It's irrelevant because its existence is irrelevant. Without the Halls of Valor, vrykul souls would go to the Shadowlands instead. The Halls of Valor was borne out of pettiness of a single keeper because everyone else didn't agree with him. The reason for the Halls of Valor's existence is literally the story of the spoiled kid leaving his group of friends and taking his toys with him because the others didn't say 'yes' to everything he wanted.

It's irrelevant in the cosmic scale of things because, like you said, it is a Titanic Watcher's domain. Unlike the Emerald Dream, which is on the cosmic scale of stuff and therefore must have been created by the First Ones.

Good job showing artwork that didn't exist back in the day. Look at Khadgar. During that time he was an old, long-bearded dude. Also, I never claimed "we didn't know anything". I said we knew little to nothing. There's a difference.

We knew about as much as we know about the Emerald Dream. We knew about Hellfire Peninsula (because it featured the most) and the frozen wastes of Northrend. What do we know about the Emerald Dream? That it is a green, lush forest. How much would that constitute? One zone. What happens when these places we had visual notion about turn into expansions? They retain their iconic visual (red planet, snowy tundra) and Expand upon it into More Zones.

Nowhere near the same thing. Are you actually comparing player knowledge with character knowledge?

What?
The fact is that you never knew it existed in all of the ED's numerous descriptions and appearances. That means that they introduce new things into an already established place.

How do you know that for certain?

Because you've got the Shadowlands there. The 6 (7, if you count Elementals) forces were made by the First Ones. You think all of that would appear on the cosmic map and some Titanic Watcher's (not even a Titan) domain would be the exception?

They didn't. They massively changed Draenor we knew of from the RTS games into Outland for TBC, and then again for WoD.

Good. That's how you know established lore can change.

... Are you for real right now? Seriously? You didn't play WoD at all, did you?

Let's see... Dark Portal gets blasted. Khadgar can still use his magical powers. Waiting for the player to establish a Garrison. Now would be a good time for Khadgar to use his magical powers.

I have, which is why I am telling you all this.

Seems like you just like to argue, because we've been doing this since that dreaded Demon Hunter races thread, in which you lost.

I'm the slow one?

I've also used Anduin's Light magic and Sylvanas' Banshee powers as hints towards Light and Void themes. Doesn't mean i meant Anduin and Sylvanas are the hints.

And I'm the slow one. I guess I'll have to explain it to you: Sargeras caught the Titans unaware. He didn't attack and kill them all at the same time. And as far as the weakened Titans taking on Sargeras and making him smaller? That is why they had to combine their forces to imprison him.

They were subdued by him because they are vulnerable to Fel magic.

And again, you're talking about entities that were not bigger than a house imprisoning a planet-sized titan. Does this seem reasonable?

That doesn't mean the Twisting Nether is the space in the mortal realm. Those are two separate dimensions.

I meant the empty space.
Titans can still squash them on floating space rocks they inhabit.

Do you even read what you write? You really can't see the nonsense you just wrote? I know I made the comparison to ants, but the demons (along with all the living beings on those planets) would be much, much smaller than ants. And if the Titans have to shrink themselves down to the planet to be able to deal with the demonic infestations, then that means they lack the ability to make such "minute, precise operations".

They would purposefully give themselves a disadvantage against the demons?
By the way, Aman'thul was quite precise when he pulled off Y'shaarj.

Think of old gods as fungi. The caps you see are but a tiny part of its body.

I'd love to see a full concept art of that claim.

Effectively, or something. It is also possible that the thing we fought wasn't even his head so much as a tiny growth or undefined organ, given the size of his brain is markedly larger than that of his "body" that we see in Ulduar.

Remarkable how Spongebob can capture all of that:

[Le Conceptuel]

I'd love to see a full concept art of that claim.

I'll do you one better—here's (presumably still a small part of) N'Zoth's full body in-game.



In this image, N'Zoth's full body dominates the skybox and expands into the organic fleshscape below. The far smaller body we end up fighting is an unidentifiable miscellaneous organ inside of his body.

[username993720]

I'll do you one better—here's (presumably still a small part of) N'Zoth's full body in-game.



In this image, N'Zoth's full body dominates the skybox and expands into the organic fleshscape below. The far smaller body we end up fighting is an unidentifiable miscellaneous organ inside of his body.

It's not an organ. They just resized him so you can fight it. It's like fighting an avatar.

[Koollan]

It's not an organ. They just resized him so you can fight it. It's like fighting an avatar.

My question is, if that's the case, why, when you 'kill' him, the entire place doesn't just vanish since the entire place is Nzoth?

Case in point, Yogg is confirmed to still be alive. C'thun and Nzoth are also both presumed to still be alive in some way because of that. Nzoth just has way more actual evidence to that than C'thun.

[Le Conceptuel]

It's not an organ. They just resized him so you can fight it. It's like fighting an avatar.

You literally fight the organ or growth you kill inside of his own body. How is N'Zoth's whole body inside of N'Zoth's whole body?

[username993720]

My question is, if that's the case, why, when you 'kill' him, the entire place doesn't just vanish since the entire place is Nzoth?

Case in point, Yogg is confirmed to still be alive. C'thun and Nzoth are also both presumed to still be alive in some way because of that. Nzoth just has way more actual evidence to that than C'thun.

The end cutscene shows that?

You literally fight the organ or growth you kill inside of his own body. How is N'Zoth's whole body inside of N'Zoth's whole body?

It's called N'zoth the Corruptor. Not brain of N'zoth, tongue of N'zoth, ear of N'zoth...

He's basically a russian matryoshka

[Hobbidaggy]

The end cutscene shows that?



It's called N'zoth the Corruptor. Not brain of N'zoth, tongue of N'zoth, ear of N'zoth...

He's basically a russian matryoshka

Wasn’t it like the husk on the outside and his body we fight in the last battle is the central core of him.

That’s what I was under the impression of and hadn’t they basically said that somewhere.

Squid Nzoth that we saw was what is inside the husk that has spread everywhere

[Ielenia]

Then, there's no reason to give out a Deathwing mount, is there?

Yes. There is. Because the Cataclysm expansion is featured in that anniversary event edition.

Just because someone might be biased, it doesn't mean they pull it out of their assess. They wrote it for a reason, not just for fun and giggles.

Except the character in the book is literally "pulling that out of their ass". It's just an hypothesis that he has where the sole logic reads "this happened here, so it should have happened there".

What isn't real?
The goddamn Moon goddess can be real but not the Sun one? Come on...

How many times have we seen An'she do anything? Can you cite some examples? Because we have seen Elune do stuff several times before.

Oh, so you agree that they are liars?

This is about your claim. You are the one who used Odyn's words as fact after claiming several times before that they're liars. Seems like double-standards to me.

It's irrelevant in the cosmic scale of things because, like you said, it is a Titanic Watcher's domain. Unlike the Emerald Dream, which is on the cosmic scale of stuff and therefore must have been created by the First Ones.

Except, it wasn't. At least insofar as where current lore is concerned. If Dragonflight changes that, you might have a point, depending on how much and how they retcon it.

We knew about as much as we know about the Emerald Dream.

No, we didn't. Again: count the times we went to those places in the lore. If you put them all together, it's still less than the amount of times we went to the Emerald Dream.

What?
The fact is that you never knew it existed in all of the ED's numerous descriptions and appearances. That means that they introduce new things into an already established place.

And Thros is still the Emerald Nightmare. It looks like the Emerald Nightmare. That's the point. Thros is still the Emerald Nightmare.

Because you've got the Shadowlands there.

The Shadowlands span the entire universe. The Emerald Dream encompasses only Azeroth.

Good. That's how you know established lore can change.

I never said that the lore can't or shouldn't change. That was never the point of my arguments. The point is changing the Emerald Dream into something it's not. Again: there is "expanding a concept while staying true to its original concept", and then there is "changing a concept into something else entirely". And you want the latter for the Emerald Dream. In other words: you want Draenor to stop existing so Outland can exist.

Let's see... Dark Portal gets blasted. Khadgar can still use his magical powers. Waiting for the player to establish a Garrison. Now would be a good time for Khadgar to use his magical powers.

Wow. Did you forget that the only resources we brought with us to alternate Draenor when we stormed the reopened Dark Portal was only what we had in our pockets at the time, right? And if you can't recall, or don't want to, Khadgar specifically mentions that he can open a portal for only a short moment when he summons the Horde and Alliance workers to work in the Garrisons. Khadgar was alone, the only mage in the group. After he returns, he conscripts more mages to aid him to make more permanent portals in Ashran and in his new tower in Talador.

I've also used Anduin's Light magic and Sylvanas' Banshee powers as hints towards Light and Void themes. Doesn't mean i meant Anduin and Sylvanas are the hints.

You already made that admission about the felstorm, so yes, you are using Anduin and Sylvanas as the hints as they fall into the exact same situation.

They were subdued by him because they are vulnerable to Fel magic.

But it doesn't work like kryptonite, where its simple presence is enough to weaken the titans. Again, even counting the fel magic, I doubt Sargeras would be able to kill them all if they were attacked at the same time and were aware of their brother's betrayal.

And again, you're talking about entities that were not bigger than a house imprisoning a planet-sized titan. Does this seem reasonable?

They combined what strength they have and all worked together to pull and imprison Sargeras. So, yes, that does seem reasonable.

I meant the empty space.
Titans can still squash them on floating space rocks they inhabit.

"Floating rocks". You mean, the planets? Demons don't live in small, drifting asteroids devoid of life, just waiting for it to fall on a planet to start infesting it, you know?

They would purposefully give themselves a disadvantage against the demons?
By the way, Aman'thul was quite precise when he pulled off Y'shaarj.

"Y'Shaarj, however, proved much too strong for the titan-forged to defeat, which prompted the titan leader Aman'Thul to reach down his arm and tear Y'Shaarj apart. This created a giant gaping wound in the planet's crust from which the arcane lifeblood of Azeroth, the nascent titan, was hemorrhaging."
... Yes. Very precise, indeed. (/sarcasm)

[Le Conceptuel]

It's called N'zoth the Corruptor. Not brain of N'zoth, tongue of N'zoth, ear of N'zoth...

He's basically a russian matryoshka

Somewhat a matter of semantics that it's not specified which undefined part of N'Zoth we're fighting—the Old Gods don't have normal biology, and the organ we fight is presumably just another mound of flesh more than a functional organ worth specifying, albeit evidently a particularly vulnerable one. The Matryoshka quality isn't really that far off from what I was saying. It's a component of N'Zoth, whereas the rest of his body is the towering entity we see there. The Old Gods are definitely far larger than the small pustules we're busy killing in their respective raids—again, I point towards Yogg-Saron's brain being far larger than the bulk of his "body" and his tentacles reaching all the way to Vordrassil in Grizzly Hills in one instance and N'Zoth's vast body in another. I doubt the body we see there is a husk or extension because this is also consistent with the scale of C'Thun as we saw him in Chronicles, who also towered over his temple-city. Even beyond his appearance in Ny'Alotha, we see other extensions of his body stretch as far as Kul'Tiras, constituting the Crucible of Storms.

[username993720]

Wasn’t it like the husk on the outside and his body we fight in the last battle is the central core of him.

That’s what I was under the impression of and hadn’t they basically said that somewhere.

Squid Nzoth that we saw was what is inside the husk that has spread everywhere

I wouldn't call it a husk. That's N'zoth.
What you fought was a modified model of him.

Yes. There is. Because the Cataclysm expansion is featured in that anniversary event edition.

And so is every other expansion?

Except the character in the book is literally "pulling that out of their ass". It's just an hypothesis that he has where the sole logic reads "this happened here, so it should have happened there".

You're not reading into the mind of a Broker. You're reading a developer's work. This isn't the result of his free time shenanigans.

How many times have we seen An'she do anything? Can you cite some examples? Because we have seen Elune do stuff several times before.

Do you need to see to believe in a video game? A fantasy video game?

This is about your claim. You are the one who used Odyn's words as fact after claiming several times before that they're liars. Seems like double-standards to me.

So, he's lying about life being chaotic but they aren't lying about creating the Emerald Dream? You need to decide.

Except, it wasn't. At least insofar as where current lore is concerned. If Dragonflight changes that, you might have a point, depending on how much and how they retcon it.

I'm not living in the moment like you. I work things out based on the things we got recently. That is, "the titans tend to appropriate things that they didn't do".

No, we didn't. Again: count the times we went to those places in the lore. If you put them all together, it's still less than the amount of times we went to the Emerald Dream.

As far as i'm concerned, we've seen the same zone just different parts of it. It's just one green forest.

And Thros is still the Emerald Nightmare. It looks like the Emerald Nightmare. That's the point. Thros is still the Emerald Nightmare.

This looks like the Emerald Nightmare?

The Shadowlands span the entire universe. The Emerald Dream encompasses only Azeroth.

Unlikely. It features on the cosmic map.
We were under the impression that the Shadowlands were the afterlives for Azerothians only until the Shadowlands expansion came out.

I never said that the lore can't or shouldn't change. That was never the point of my arguments. The point is changing the Emerald Dream into something it's not. Again: there is "expanding a concept while staying true to its original concept", and then there is "changing a concept into something else entirely". And you want the latter for the Emerald Dream. In other words: you want Draenor to stop existing so Outland can exist.

Did Draenor become not Draenor with WoW?
Staying true to its nature means there will be a green forest zone. Expanding it means there will be more than just that.

Wow. Did you forget that the only resources we brought with us to alternate Draenor when we stormed the reopened Dark Portal was only what we had in our pockets at the time, right? And if you can't recall, or don't want to, Khadgar specifically mentions that he can open a portal for only a short moment when he summons the Horde and Alliance workers to work in the Garrisons. Khadgar was alone, the only mage in the group. After he returns, he conscripts more mages to aid him to make more permanent portals in Ashran and in his new tower in Talador.

Conclusion: magic solves everything.

You already made that admission about the felstorm, so yes, you are using Anduin and Sylvanas as the hints as they fall into the exact same situation.

Jesus christ... what do you not understand about metaphors? Not Anduin, not Sylvanas and not the Felstorm serve as hints, but what their colors imply at.

But it doesn't work like kryptonite, where its simple presence is enough to weaken the titans. Again, even counting the fel magic, I doubt Sargeras would be able to kill them all if they were attacked at the same time and were aware of their brother's betrayal.

That's exactly what it is.

"Aggramar, thinking that his former friend could still be reasoned with, approached Sargeras unarmed, but in response the fel-corrupted titan killed Aggramar with a single blow. Outraged, the Pantheon attacked, but even the combined might of the titans could not stand against the dark titan's fel might. Before long, the titans were all dead."

He single-handedly killed them all in the same battle.

They combined what strength they have and all worked together to pull and imprison Sargeras. So, yes, that does seem reasonable.

So, an Avatar-sized titan has almost enough strength as a planet-sized titan? Got it. Now, the question is: Did they combine their efforts because they were weakened or because he's stronger as a Fel being (given how he defeated them all).

"Floating rocks". You mean, the planets? Demons don't live in small, drifting asteroids devoid of life, just waiting for it to fall on a planet to start infesting it, you know?

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dreadscar_Rift
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mar...hattered_Abyss
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Niskara
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Xandros
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowgore_Citadel
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...rd%27s_Return)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...ing_the_Twins)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...lfire_Citadel)

"Y'Shaarj, however, proved much too strong for the titan-forged to defeat, which prompted the titan leader Aman'Thul to reach down his arm and tear Y'Shaarj apart. This created a giant gaping wound in the planet's crust from which the arcane lifeblood of Azeroth, the nascent titan, was hemorrhaging."
... Yes. Very precise, indeed. (/sarcasm)

Of course it happened because Y'shaarj was a parasite. Meaning, he latched himself on to Azeroth. Pulling a parasite creates a wound unless you have medical equipment. I meant that he didn't just smash him and damage half of azeroth doing that. He tried to pulk Y'shaarj alone, unaware that he borrowed himself too deep into the planet. When you try to get a tick off of a dog, you damage half of his body doing that?

Somewhat a matter of semantics that it's not specified which undefined part of N'Zoth we're fighting—the Old Gods don't have normal biology, and the organ we fight is presumably just another mound of flesh more than a functional organ worth specifying, albeit evidently a particularly vulnerable one. The Matryoshka quality isn't really that far off from what I was saying. It's a component of N'Zoth, whereas the rest of his body is the towering entity we see there. The Old Gods are definitely far larger than the small pustules we're busy killing in their respective raids—again, I point towards Yogg-Saron's brain being far larger than the bulk of his "body" and his tentacles reaching all the way to Vordrassil in Grizzly Hills in one instance and N'Zoth's vast body in another. I doubt the body we see there is a husk or extension because this is also consistent with the scale of C'Thun as we saw him in Chronicles, who also towered over his temple-city. Even beyond his appearance in Ny'Alotha, we see other extensions of his body stretch as far as Kul'Tiras, constituting the Crucible of Storms.

Which, we can't fight gameplay-wise. That's why the devs have to make small versions of them for the players to fight.

[Lochton]

This looks like the Emerald Nightmare?

So, I thought I had fled this bickering because it was turning to a circle jerk and now return to see that you... agreed with what I said a while back.

Thros is not the Emerald Nightmare or the Emerald Dream, it is an area between various locations in which the Drust sought refuge after fleeing, having reached out and found a connection to the Nightmare but they did not know anything about what the Emerald Nightmare was, other than they had to get away from it, and thus found Thros, which connects as well to Fate's End, Drustvar, and Ardenweald.

[Ielenia]

I wouldn't call it a husk. That's N'zoth.
What you fought was a modified model of him.

No, we fight a small part of it, inside it.

And so is every other expansion?

And? You're moving the goalposts. Your claim was that because the 15th anniversary wasn't exclusively about the Cataclysm expansion, then we shouldn't have gotten the Obsidian Worldbreaker mount.

You're not reading into the mind of a Broker. You're reading a developer's work. This isn't the result of his free time shenanigans.

We're reading the work of a writer that is telling us what's in the mind of a Broker. So, yes, all that the broker says about a possible "pantheon of life" is just that: musings.

Do you need to see to believe in a video game? A fantasy video game?

Just because it's a video game story doesn't mean there is no folklore and myths.

So, he's lying about life being chaotic but they aren't lying about creating the Emerald Dream? You need to decide.

I don't have to, because this isn't the double-standard you think it is. Because we have lore that shows that Odyn is lying. We don't have any lore that contradicts the claim that Freya created the Emerald Dream.

I'm not living in the moment like you.

It's not that I "only live in the moment". I just don't accept bullshit. And saying a felstorm is a reference to the Emerald Dream, and that Bolvar is a reference to the Dragonflight expansion are just that: bullshit.

As far as i'm concerned, we've seen the same zone just different parts of it. It's just one green forest.

Well, you're wrong, then. Because just from the Emerald Nightmare instance, we see that the Emerald Dream encompasses at least Grizzly Hills, Un'Goro Crater, Mulgore and Moonglade.

This looks like the Emerald Nightmare?

We literally have lore stating that the only reason the drust don't call Thros 'the Emerald Nightmare' is because they weren't aware of the Nightmare's existence in the first place. You want to hear about a similar example in real life? The natives of the American continents were called 'indians' for the longest time because the first colonizers to touch american soil thought they reached "the Indies", which was how they called the asian continent, and the name stuck.

Unlikely.

You're going against current established lore.

We were under the impression that the Shadowlands were the afterlives for Azerothians only.

No, we weren't.

Did Draenor become not Draenor with WoW?

Is the main landmass for the TBC expansion called 'Draenor'?

Staying true to its nature means there will be a green forest zone. Expanding it means there will be more than just that.

No. "Staying true to its nature" means the entire place being a green forest zone, and encompassing just Azeroth, and not the entire cosmos. Because that is what the Emerald Dream is.

Conclusion: magic solves everything.

Are you really that surprised that, in an universe defined by magic, magic is a powerful tool? Really? Either way, you completely missed the point. This is no different than a normal expedition, where a first group, usually small, is sent ahead to establish a forward base, and then the rest of the expedition comes along with the rest of the equipment.

Jesus christ... what do you not understand about metaphors? Not Anduin, not Sylvanas and not the Felstorm serve as hints, but what their colors imply at.

I understand metaphors just fine. And you already admitted to the fact that if you use an aspect of something, you are using said something.

So, an Avatar-sized titan has almost enough strength as a planet-sized titan? Got it.

What part of "having to combine their strengths" did you not get?

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dreadscar_Rift
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mar...hattered_Abyss
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Niskara
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Xandros
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowgore_Citadel
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...rd%27s_Return)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...ing_the_Twins)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...lfire_Citadel)

I'll repeat: the Twisting Nether is not the universe.

Of course it happened because Y'shaarj was a parasite. Meaning, he latched himself on to Azeroth. Pulling a parasite creates a wound unless you have medical equipment. I meant that he didn't just smash him and damage half of azeroth doing that. He tried to pulk Y'shaarj alone, unaware that he borrowed himself too deep into the planet. When you try to get a tick off of a dog, you damage half of his body doing that?

But I thought you said the Titans were "very precise" to the point of being able to remove infestations of entities the size of specks of dust? There is no way the Titans can swing their weapons and blast their magics against a planet taken over by demons without severely damaging the planet they're on. Again: hammer to kill an ant on an apple.

[Koollan]

I'd also like to point out that the OP asked for opinions on whether or not the ED would be patch content or an expansion, and then they proceeded to not take said opinions and instead bicker that they are right - and now attests vehemently that we've killed the Old Gods permanently (of which it is patently shown that if an Old God dies, all of Azeroth gets irreparably damaged).

So, uh, good thread?

[KOUNTERPARTS]

I'd also like to point out that the OP asked for opinions on whether or not the ED would be patch content or an expansion, and then they proceeded to not take said opinions and instead bicker that they are right - and now attests vehemently that we've killed the Old Gods permanently (of which it is patently shown that if an Old God dies, all of Azeroth gets irreparably damaged).

So, uh, good thread?

This is, quite literally, all of OP's threads. Arguing semantics and circumventing details incessantly until the original point is lost or derailed into oblivion.
Enjoy your stay.

[username993720]

So, I thought I had fled this bickering because it was turning to a circle jerk and now return to see that you... agreed with what I said a while back.

Thros is not the Emerald Nightmare or the Emerald Dream, it is an area between various locations in which the Drust sought refuge after fleeing, having reached out and found a connection to the Nightmare but they did not know anything about what the Emerald Nightmare was, other than they had to get away from it, and thus found Thros, which connects as well to Fate's End, Drustvar, and Ardenweald.

Do you not know what a branch of the Emerald Nightmare is?

No, we fight a small part of it, inside it.

You fight a small part of it and now it is gone? The world is rid of Old Gods? Why would a massive octopus be dependent on a tiny part of itself to achieve its goal?

And? You're moving the goalposts. Your claim was that because the 15th anniversary wasn't exclusively about the Cataclysm expansion, then we shouldn't have gotten the Obsidian Worldbreaker mount.

Exactly. Deathwing doesn't even feature there.

We're reading the work of a writer that is telling us what's in the mind of a Broker. So, yes, all that the broker says about a possible "pantheon of life" is just that: musings.

And so is the knowledge of the Titans? I'll remind you that the Chronicles are supposed to be from the P.O.V of the Titans and, therefore, subjective. But, i don't assume you take the information there with a grain of salt.

Just because it's a video game story doesn't mean there is no folklore and myths.

Anything refuted that you know of?

I don't have to, because this isn't the double-standard you think it is. Because we have lore that shows that Odyn is lying. We don't have any lore that contradicts the claim that Freya created the Emerald Dream.

We do have. That the Titanic Watchers are instructed to lie. That they are instructed to twist history.

It's not that I "only live in the moment". I just don't accept bullshit. And saying a felstorm is a reference to the Emerald Dream, and that Bolvar is a reference to the Dragonflight expansion are just that: bullshit.

You've never wondered beyond what is currently happening lore-wise.

Well, you're wrong, then. Because just from the Emerald Nightmare instance, we see that the Emerald Dream encompasses at least Grizzly Hills, Un'Goro Crater, Mulgore and Moonglade.

Azeroth reflections of the Dream

Gilneas City
Grizzly Hills
Ursoc's Lair
Moonglade
Mount Hyjal
Mulgore
Un'Goro Crater

You've only seen:

The Dream's heart
Ancient Rest
Emerald Dreamway

Which are all the same green forest.

We literally have lore stating that the only reason the drust don't call Thros 'the Emerald Nightmare' is because they weren't aware of the Nightmare's existence in the first place. You want to hear about a similar example in real life? The natives of the American continents were called 'indians' for the longest time because the first colonizers to touch american soil thought they reached "the Indies", which was how they called the asian continent, and the name stuck.

I've asked you a question. Does it look like the Emerald Nightmare?

You're going against current established lore.

That's your problem. You're so hooked to current lore that you can't see beyond it.

No, we weren't.

Yes, we were.
Where was it mentioned that the Shadowlands encompasses the entire universe before?

Is the main landmass for the TBC expansion called 'Draenor'?

Previously Draenor.

No. "Staying true to its nature" means the entire place being a green forest zone, and encompassing just Azeroth, and not the entire cosmos. Because that is what the Emerald Dream is.

No. Staying true to the source material means you have the foundation but that you also explore other possibilities.

Are you really that surprised that, in an universe defined by magic, magic is a powerful tool? Really? Either way, you completely missed the point. This is no different than a normal expedition, where a first group, usually small, is sent ahead to establish a forward base, and then the rest of the expedition comes along with the rest of the equipment.

Then, the destruction of the Dark Portal doesn't mean much.

I understand metaphors just fine. And you already admitted to the fact that if you use an aspect of something, you are using said something.

Then, realize that i'm referring to the Emerald color recurring appearance throughout the cinematic.

What part of "having to combine their strengths" did you not get?

You really don't get size differences, do you?

I'll repeat: the Twisting Nether is not the universe.

I'll repeat: killing demons doesn't take special procedure.

But I thought you said the Titans were "very precise" to the point of being able to remove infestations of entities the size of specks of dust? There is no way the Titans can swing their weapons and blast their magics against a planet taken over by demons without severely damaging the planet they're on. Again: hammer to kill an ant on an apple.

Have you used twizers or blown pimples before?

I'd also like to point out that the OP asked for opinions on whether or not the ED would be patch content or an expansion, and then they proceeded to not take said opinions and instead bicker that they are right - and now attests vehemently that we've killed the Old Gods permanently (of which it is patently shown that if an Old God dies, all of Azeroth gets irreparably damaged).

So, uh, good thread?

Huh? Where did i say we killed the Old Gods for good?

[Ielenia]

You fight a small part of it and now it is gone? The world is rid of Old Gods? Why would a massive octopus be dependent on a tiny part of itself to achieve its goal?

Why are you saying this, after you've been told that old gods didn't die when we defeated them? N'Zoth is not dead. Neither is any of the gods. Hell, even Y'shaarj who got ripped to pieces is still alive.

Exactly. Deathwing doesn't even feature there.

Deathwing is the most memorable character from the Cataclysm expansion.

And so is the knowledge of the Titans? I'll remind you that the Chronicles are supposed to be from the P.O.V of the Titans and, therefore, subjective. But, i don't assume you take the information there with a grain of salt.

There's a difference between a character asserting knowledge, and a character offering a hypothesis. The Titans are asserting knowledge by describing how things are. The broker is just offering a hypothesis by offering a possibility.

Anything refuted that you know of?

I didn't say anything about refutations. I simply pointed out that we haven't heard anything about An'shee that isn't pure folklore so far. We haven't witnessed the god act, like Elune has.

We do have. That the Titanic Watchers are instructed to lie. That they are instructed to twist history.

That is not concrete evidence, because it doesn't mean that everything they said is false.

You've never wondered beyond what is currently happening lore-wise.

I have. But I don't go saying "maybe the Emerald Dream is not the Emerald Dream" or "maybe there's a desert, and rocky mountains, and lava in the Emerald Dream". Y'know, going against established lore?

Azeroth reflections of the Dream

Considering the Emerald Dream is a reflection of Azeroth if mortals never arose, that is to be expected?

You've only seen:

The Dream's heart
Ancient Rest
Emerald Dreamway

Which are all the same green forest.

Aw, geez. It's almost as if the lore of the Emerald Dream is that it's lush green forests. Oh wait...

That's your problem. You're so hooked to current lore that you can't see beyond it.

Making up nonsense is not a worthy debate. Would you accept the fact that the planet neighbor to Azeroth is the Zerg homeworld? Maybe we'll find Cybertron somewhere in the cosmos too?

Yes, we were.
Where was it mentioned that the Shadowlands encompasses the entire universe before?

It doesn't work that way. You're the one asserting knowledge, so the burden of proof is on your shoulders to show that we were told/implied that the Shadowlands were just for Azeroth.

Previously Draenor.

That was not my question. I asked what is the main landmass for TBC expansion called? Hint: it's not Draenor.

No. Staying true to the source material means you have the foundation but that you also explore other possibilities.

Possibilities that are restricted to the foundation. And if the foundation does not allow for anything other than green forests, then deserts, rocky mountains and other wastelands are not possible.

Then, the destruction of the Dark Portal doesn't mean much.

... It literally stopped the Iron Horde from trampling into Azeroth. How is that "not much"? Not to mention that was the sole reason why we destroyed the portal.

Then, realize that i'm referring to the Emerald color recurring appearance throughout the cinematic.

Which has already been explained to be bunk. Fel magic is not a reference to the Emerald Dream, and small pixels in what is otherwise a blue glow also are not references to the Emerald Dream. Just like Bolvar's current form is not a reference to the Dragonflight expansion.

You really don't get size differences, do you?

What does that have to do with anything? You'd have a point if we had one diminished titan against Sargeras, but we had all the remaining titans pooling together their remaining strength to imprison Sargeras.

I'll repeat: killing demons doesn't take special procedure.

It requires the Titans to make themselves smaller so they don't destroy the planet while ridding it of demons.

Huh? Where did i say we killed the Old Gods for good?

You literally just said this:

You fight a small part of it and now it is gone? The world is rid of Old Gods?

[username993720]

Why are you saying this, after you've been told that old gods didn't die when we defeated them? N'Zoth is not dead. Neither is any of the gods. Hell, even Y'shaarj who got ripped to pieces is still alive.

For what reason are we fighting their smaller versions which results in the end of their activities?

Deathwing is the most memorable character from the Cataclysm expansion.

Then, you'd think he would appear as a boss. But, he doesn't. And, again, this anniversary is not about the Cataclysm.

There's a difference between a character asserting knowledge, and a character offering a hypothesis. The Titans are asserting knowledge by describing how things are. The broker is just offering a hypothesis by offering a possibility.

Assertions which we know to be false.
The attitude in which it is delivered doesn't affect the facts.

I didn't say anything about refutations. I simply pointed out that we haven't heard anything about An'shee that isn't pure folklore so far. We haven't witnessed the god act, like Elune has.

Which doesn't refute his existence.
Again, do you know of any cases turning out to be myths?

That is not concrete evidence, because it doesn't mean that everything they said is false.

Never implied they are total liars. But, in some aspects, they do. Like painting themselves as the creators of the universe's marvels and being the ultimate good guys.

I have. But I don't go saying "maybe the Emerald Dream is not the Emerald Dream" or "maybe there's a desert, and rocky mountains, and lava in the Emerald Dream". Y'know, going against established lore?

Like i said. You never look beyond what is currently offered to you.

Considering the Emerald Dream is a reflection of Azeroth if mortals never arose, that is to be expected?

No. You are not in the Emerald Dream when you visit those places. They are just mere reflections of what the Emerald Dream is trying to capture.

Aw, geez. It's almost as if the lore of the Emerald Dream is that it's lush green forests. Oh wait...

3 little areas with nothing much to them. What an abundance of Emerald Dream experience. From the looks of them, they all look the same. 1 of them is a subsection of the Heart. So, it's only two tiny areas. And they look exactly the same. That's probably because they belong in the same miniature zone. So, basically, we haven't seen or experienced much of the Emerald Dream like you claim we did. We've only had small tastes of what it is like.

And, by the way, if these Azeroth zones are a reflection of the Emerald Dream, then the Emerald Dream is not just a green lush forest, is it?

Gilneas City - more like a creepy, dead forest.
Grizzly Hills - more scandinavian than your average night elf forest.
Moonglade - would be the closest, yet more nighttime than the ED is depicted as.
Mount Hyjal - it can apparently have mountains and hills.
Mulgore - plains. Not a forest.
Un'Goro Crater - a jungle, not an enchanted forest.

So, your whole theory basically falls down. Because this:


Doesn't look like any of them.
And if you claim that these Azerothian zones are part of the Dream, you basically claim that the Dream is diverse since it's not all just this Val'sharah forest.

Making up nonsense is not a worthy debate. Would you accept the fact that the planet neighbor to Azeroth is the Zerg homeworld? Maybe we'll find Cybertron somewhere in the cosmos too?

Old Gods and Draenei lore could definitely be touched upon (the WoW equivalents of these Starcraft races).

It doesn't work that way. You're the one asserting knowledge, so the burden of proof is on your shoulders to show that we were told/implied that the Shadowlands were just for Azeroth.

"Like the Emerald Dream, the Shadowlands are tangentially linked to the World of Azeroth". -Chronicles, Volume 1.

That was not my question. I asked what is the main landmass for TBC expansion called? Hint: it's not Draenor.

Outland. Which is built upon the foundation of Draenor.

Possibilities that are restricted to the foundation. And if the foundation does not allow for anything other than green forests, then deserts, rocky mountains and other wastelands are not possible.

It doesn't? A dream can be nothing more than a green forest? A reflection of Azeroth can be nothing more than a green forest?
Well, it does now that we know that the Titans lied to us.

... It literally stopped the Iron Horde from trampling into Azeroth. How is that "not much"? Not to mention that was the sole reason why we destroyed the portal.

Just conjure another portal?

Which has already been explained to be bunk. Fel magic is not a reference to the Emerald Dream, and small pixels in what is otherwise a blue glow also are not references to the Emerald Dream. Just like Bolvar's current form is not a reference to the Dragonflight expansion.

Well, they kind of are. You are just unable to decipher them.

What does that have to do with anything? You'd have a point if we had one diminished titan against Sargeras, but we had all the remaining titans pooling together their remaining strength to imprison Sargeras.

Then, they must have one kick-ass of magical powers, because they are the size of a tick on his shoulder.

It requires the Titans to make themselves smaller so they don't destroy the planet while ridding it of demons.

Planet? I just showed you a plethora of asteroids.

You literally just said this:

In the form of a question.
Why would the Old Gods supposedly be defeated by a small organ they supposedly have?

[Ielenia]

For what reason are we fighting their smaller versions which results in the end of their activities?

We're not fighting "smaller versions". And to take from a meme here, their defeat is "merely a setback".

Then, you'd think he would appear as a boss. But, he doesn't.

Are you even reading what I'm writing? Why would Deathwing appear as a boss when his two boss fights (Spine and Madness) are widely regarded by the playerbase as bad?

And, again, this anniversary is not about the Cataclysm.

It is about the Cataclysm as well.

Assertions which we know to be false.

Not really. From what I could read of the book, it appears Odyn's decision to lie to the mortals was entirely one-sided, that it didn't come "from above", i.e., the Titans didn't tell him to lie to the mortals. If I'm right, then that book doesn't affect what is written in Chronicles. However, the broker's musings about a possible existence of a "pantheon of life" doesn't mean such a thing exists.

Which doesn't refute his existence.

I'm not refuting his existence. I'm just pointing out we have no evidence of his existence past myth and folklore, unlike Elune, for example.

Like i said. You never look beyond what is currently offered to you.

I don't make up stuff that doesn't exist and assert it as fact like you do. That's different.

3 little areas with nothing much to them.

Considering you're using the single time we've been to the Broken Isles as an example of "we explored it enough", then "three little areas" should have more than met your burden of proof. Seems double-standards-ish to me.

"Like the Emerald Dream, the Shadowlands are tangentially linked to the World of Azeroth". -Chronicles, Volume 1.

That line doesn't mean what you think it means. The streets in front of my house is also "tangentially linked" to my house, but it doesn't mean it's connected only to my house.

Outland. Which is built upon the foundation of Draenor.

Outland. Which is a heavily modified version of Draenor. Which is my whole point with "changing something into something it's not."

A dream

The Emerald Dream is not an actual dream.

Well, it does now that we know that the Titans lied to us.

The Keepers did. We don't know if the Titans commanded Odyn to command his keepers to lie.

Just conjure another portal?

... Are you serious right now? You really think that opening a portal the size of the Dark Portal requires just the quick wiggling of fingers of a single mage?

Well, they kind of are. You are just unable to decipher them.

They're not. You're just being delusional. Do you honestly think that Blizzard, when they designed Bolvar's post-Wrathgate form, way back in 2008/2009, were thinking: "we'll make him look this way so we can use him as a reference for our dragon-based expansion we'll launch in 13 years from now"?

Then, they must have one kick-ass of magical powers, because they are the size of a tick on his shoulder.

And David felled Goliath. And a merry band of heroes that were the size of ticks on Deathwing's shoulders felled him. Your point?

Planet? I just showed you a plethora of asteroids.

That exist in the Nether and not in the mortal realm.

[username993720]

We're not fighting "smaller versions". And to take from a meme here, their defeat is "merely a setback".

Answer me. Why would a giant being be dependent on a small tumor to win or lose?

Are you even reading what I'm writing? Why would Deathwing appear as a boss when his two boss fights (Spine and Madness) are widely regarded by the playerbase as bad?

So, there's no particular reason for him to appear as a mount for the anniversary. It's not about the Cataclysm alone and it's not about him.

It is about the Cataclysm as well.

Not a strong enough reason. It is about all of the expansions and Deathwing doesn't even feature as a boss.

Not really. From what I could read of the book, it appears Odyn's decision to lie to the mortals was entirely one-sided, that it didn't come "from above", i.e., the Titans didn't tell him to lie to the mortals. If I'm right, then that book doesn't affect what is written in Chronicles. However, the broker's musings about a possible existence of a "pantheon of life" doesn't mean such a thing exists.

Oh, so Odyn is the exception? From what i know, the Titanic Watchers serve the Titans.

Why would the developers toy around with the concept of a Pantheon of Life?

I'm not refuting his existence. I'm just pointing out we have no evidence of his existence past myth and folklore, unlike Elune, for example.

So, the Sunwalkers and Seers that draw upon his power. Where does it come from?

I don't make up stuff that doesn't exist and assert it as fact like you do. That's different.

You do. Like your Necromancer dream.

Considering you're using the single time we've been to the Broken Isles as an example of "we explored it enough", then "three little areas" should have more than met your burden of proof. Seems double-standards-ish to me.

We explored it enough? We've barely even scratched the surface. You're confusing me with yourself.

That line doesn't mean what you think it means. The streets in front of my house is also "tangentially linked" to my house, but it doesn't mean it's connected only to my house.

"Like the Emerald Dream...."

Outland. Which is a heavily modified version of Draenor. Which is my whole point with "changing something into something it's not."

So, you're basically saying Cataclysm Azeroth isn't Azeroth and that Outland wasn't previously Draenor. Because they did use WC2 Draenor as a foundation for Outland.

The Emerald Dream is not an actual dream.

Funny choice of words, considering they also use the word Nightmare.

The Keepers did. We don't know if the Titans commanded Odyn to command his keepers to lie.

They work for the titans.

... Are you serious right now? You really think that opening a portal the size of the Dark Portal requires just the quick wiggling of fingers of a single mage?

Not a Dark Portal. A mage-sized portal. Which apparently can transfer enough to build a whole damn garrison and populate it.

They're not. You're just being delusional. Do you honestly think that Blizzard, when they designed Bolvar's post-Wrathgate form, way back in 2008/2009, were thinking: "we'll make him look this way so we can use him as a reference for our dragon-based expansion we'll launch in 13 years from now"?

Cataclysm launched right after.

And David felled Goliath. And a merry band of heroes that were the size of ticks on Deathwing's shoulders felled him. Your point?

You're the one who said they were severely weakened and that size matters when it comes to the titans.

That exist in the Nether and not in the mortal realm.

And they can't reach it?