The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[loras]

Yoggy and C'thun I believe aren't dead but just defeated. Not sure but I've been told that there are 2 gods left. As for the Nightmare, even with out Xavius, it is a thing of the dream, and it will never go away.

Last i looked only Y'shaarj was considered truly dead; we disrupted N'zoth's alternate realm but between his obvious handling of that weird dagger and his "death" not triggering a second sundering i'm pretty sure we have three semi-active old gods left.

And even then Y'shaarj may just reform in the void and return by slamming into Azeroth a second time, they're not creatures of the material world after all (and they already know the way through the great dark).

Also to my knowledge the emerald nightmare is not something self sustaining, but rather something that is fed into by the void via the old gods.

[munkeyinorbit]

Last i looked only Y'shaarj was considered truly dead; we disrupted N'zoth's alternate realm but between his obvious handling of that weird dagger and his "death" not triggering a second sundering i'm pretty sure we have three semi-active old gods left.

And even then Y'shaarj may just reform in the void and return by slamming into Azeroth a second time, they're not creatures of the material world after all (and they already know the way through the great dark).

Also to my knowledge the emerald nightmare is not something self sustaining, but rather something that is fed into by the void via the old gods.

Before we defeated nzoth blizzard has stated that the other 2 we defeated are for all intents and purposes dead. Anything else is head canon.

[loras]

Before we defeated nzoth blizzard has stated that the other 2 we defeated are for all intents and purposes dead. Anything else is head canon.

We literally just went to the land of the dead, if you still can't wrap your head around death not meaning the same thing in warcraft that's really a "You" problem.

[username993720]

Why?

Did you see what happened with Shadowlands? The disconnection it felt from the story because you aren't going to anyone's home or world except where a fraction of WoW lore has been tied to until the expansion revealed more?

Yeah, that is Emerald Dream as well. We've seen a fraction of it through the druids, and we know that the dragons and satyr are part of it, nothing more.

After Shadowlands I've come to the conclusion that we shouldn't venture to celestial or power planes as a whole expansion.

So, the Emerald Dream would feel disconnected as well? Did Val'sharah feel disconnected? Did the Emerald Nightmare? How about Thros, the Blighted Lands?

I think we already got our Emerald Dream expansion when Legion came out

How so?

[Caiphon]

We literally just went to the land of the dead, if you still can't wrap your head around death not meaning the same thing in warcraft that's really a "You" problem.

Considering Y'shaarj has pretty much stayed dead since the days of the Titans I think it's safe to say the other two won't be returning in the forseeable future. If we come across more powerful void entities it would likely be shards or echoes of the Void Lords themselves, like Dimensius for example. The Emerald Dream doesn't seem to exist within the material plane, perhaps it's located somewhere where the Void Lords can send their avatars off to. We know that cosmic forces sometimes invade another forces' realms, the Shadowlands have been invaded at least twice by the Void (Bastion) and the Light (Revendreth). The corruption of the Nightmare suddenly intensifying (and maybe turning purple) with an avatar of a Void Lord manifesting at its center would have some degree of dramatic effect while not straying terribly far from the established lore. You could even have void entities cross through the dream and into the material world for an added sense of urgency.

[Ringthane]

Yeah I'm going to have to disagree with saying Shadowlands should've only been a single patch cause that's completely ridiculous. That would've been even more absurd than N'zoth being a single patch was. Patch stories should only be parts of whatever major plot the expansion's about. Major enemies or worlds shouldn't be added and removed in a single patch either cause then they'll simply run out of ideas too quickly.

I agree with you.

Except you should have gone further and said "Shadowlands should have never been made". And then you'd be right.

[username993720]

I agree with you.

Except you should have gone further and said "Shadowlands should have never been made". And then you'd be right.

Then, what would have come in its stead?

[Celement]

Should've been an expansion but Blizzard decided to throw away all of the expansion ideas people cared about in Legion and BFA.

Should it of been? The emerald dream least last I checked before lore rewrites is that it just represents the world at the point of its creation.

There isn't anyone there but dreamers and maybe a bit of an old god.

The only way you can really make it a place worth seeing is if you rewrite it into something more grand. It is by definition an empty realm.

[BB8]

In this video, Taliesin argues that the Emerald Dream should only constitute a patch. While i agree that Emerald Dream content is on the horizon, i totally disagree with the stance that the Emerald Dream is only a patch worth of content. The Emerald Dream is as much an expansion worth of content as Shadowlands was. Now, i'm not talking about the quality of execution here, but on the amount such a lore location can provide. The Emerald Dream can be much more than just a green, lush forest. I even made a concept thread for such an expansion, toying around with the nature of dreams:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ream-Expansion
Think about it. Dreams can be whatever the developers would like them to be. It's extremely versatile and flexible. Even if not based on dreams, but on the blueprint of Azeroth, it can still have a variety of terrains, like forests, deserts, snowy or aquatic landscapes. Taliesin goes on to argue that Nazjatar can constitute an entire expansion. How so? It is but a city. 5 zones of aquatic landscapes like Vash'jir sounds exciting or original? The only other place i can think of is Mak'aru, the capital city of the Makrura. If it is Night elven ruins he is interested in, then there can be an ancient Kalimdor expansion where we explore the ancient Night elven empire, like in a concept thread i made:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...mdor-Expansion
But, making the Emerald Dream into a patch worth of content would waste its huge potential. We've known about this place since classic WoW and were always curious of what it holds inside (the different portals scattered around Azeroth). Yes, we've seen bits and pieces of it in Legion with the Emerald Nightmare and Val'sharah. But, it is only a small and generic portion of what the place can contain. Think about it. The Dragon Isles were nothing more than an Old God shrine in concept. Yet, we have a full-on expansion of it right now even though it featured as part of the Shrine of Storms in BfA. The Shadowlands, for example, were nothing more than a grey filter upon death. Yet, they managed to make it into a whole expansion. Now, i realize that there is the danger of ruining the mystery around that place once its fully fleshed out. But, they kind of don't have a choice. They are running out of lore places to introduce. What do you guys think? Should it be an expansion or a patch? Please explain your decision.

Who is Taliesin

[Rendark]

The emerald dream has already been dealt with. The emerald nightmare is over so it's story is done.

[hulkgor]

I'm pretty sure we're done with the Emerald Dream\Nightmare, since we've dealt with Xavius, and most of the lore significant characters related to it.

It should have been a bigger deal, with a big patch, but it is what it is.

Wouldn't mind a Emerald Dream themed dungeon or questline going forward, but don't think there's enough juice for it being very significant ahead. They can always go back to it since they write the stuff, but i don't think it will happen.

[McNeil]

I kinda like their original idea which was said by Mark Kern at some point that the Emerald Dream was a massive zone that you can only enter when your character dies. You could choose to do quests there or go back to life.

[Ielenia]

But, why?

Because, canonically (or at least, as far as I know) the Emerald Dream is just one big forest. There is no variation. No deserts, no mountains, no cities, nothing. Just one big lush forest. At best you have the Emerald Nightmare as well that is... another forest. A decaying forest, but a forest nonetheless. Green and brown replaced by red and black.

It doesn't lend itself to the variation of themes and locations one expects out of an expansion. At least with the Shadowlands you have all the possibilities of different scenarios considering we have different "afterlives". As a big content patch's new questing hub like Argus? Sure.

[Lochton]

So, the Emerald Dream would feel disconnected as well? Did Val'sharah feel disconnected? Did the Emerald Nightmare? How about Thros, the Blighted Lands?

Val'sharah, no, because it wasn't part of the Emerald Dream, the dreamway, yes, because only Druids were permitted. The Nightmare, yes, because you literally want to the heart to finish the chapter, and Thros makes more sense than the two others, as it was a connection for Shadowlands and the Nightmare, Thros is not the Emerald Dream or part of it according to lore. Even Thros content should only be a patch or two.

[Swnem]

Clearly, your mistake was watching a Taliesin video.

Yes, anything can be made into an expansion with enough imagination. Also, cause they have no issues with retconing stuff.

[OMGTwitchTV]

The dreamway was nothing but a connection point. Val'sharah is not actually part of the dream, but an attempt to mirror it. And, the Emerald Nightmare only featured this specific Legion zone.

Yeah, a patch at best. Even the video creator admitted it. "Ominous clouded zone to the west, much like the timeless isle was". If we see it, it will be more Zereth Mortis than an entire expac. And, if it is only a 10.x patch, maybe that makes 11.05 the entry through the portal in Dragonlands akin to the Black Portal of Blasted lands and we spend 11.x saving the Dream from the crazy.... Night Elf Shaman.... (hints at more Race/class unlocks) who we supposedly defeat but really wanted the portal opened anyway. So if it is a patch, it will be at the end of the expac. If it is an entire expac... maybe 11.0.

[Rozz]

Perhaps. But, what makes them nail the Dragon Isles but not the Emerald Dream?

Did they though? I think that's the thing.

It's not that I dislike the isles, but I do recognize the heavy influence of pre-existing zones and ideas to pull it together. That's not bad for continuity-- that can be a good thing, but that's why you get orc, night elf, fel, naga, etc fatigue.

The Dragon isles as a concept had the original idea scrapped, injected actual Dragons, then added more things because Dragons weren't enough as a solo theme(or you could argue would become overbearing if every zone was intensely dragon-ified).

That's an example for WHY the Emerald Dream shouldn't be treated the same. They'll HAVE to 1) retcon 2)invent new lore to expand on the vague info we have 3)add new or familiar things that aren't the Emerald Dream so it doesn't feel monotonous and because the solo theme of green/druids won't appeal for 2-3yrs straight

If any of those things are concern, then you wouldn't want an expansion. For myself, I doubt the execution rather than the idea.

[3DTyrant]

Given how they fucked up Ny'alotha and made it a patch, I wouldn't put it past Blizz to make the Emerald Nightmare a patch too, provided it could even be made into a patch given the whole Emerald Nightmare raid.

[username993720]

Should it of been? The emerald dream least last I checked before lore rewrites is that it just represents the world at the point of its creation.

There isn't anyone there but dreamers and maybe a bit of an old god.

The only way you can really make it a place worth seeing is if you rewrite it into something more grand. It is by definition an empty realm.

Not necessarily. The Shadowlands was just a place for souls. Other than some shadowy creatures it had nothing special, yet they managed to come up with an entire expansion for it.

Who is Taliesin

The guy in the video.

The emerald dream has already been dealt with. The emerald nightmare is over so it's story is done.

I wouldn't say so. There's much more to the Emerald Nightmare than just the raid.

I'm pretty sure we're done with the Emerald Dream\Nightmare, since we've dealt with Xavius, and most of the lore significant characters related to it.

I don't believe Xavius is what the Nightmare is all about. It feels too insignificant. And we still haven't really been to Thros, the Blighted Lands.

It should have been a bigger deal, with a big patch, but it is what it is.

Wouldn't mind a Emerald Dream themed dungeon or questline going forward, but don't think there's enough juice for it being very significant ahead. They can always go back to it since they write the stuff, but i don't think it will happen.

Follow the hints. There are Emerald Dream hints thrown around.

Because, canonically (or at least, as far as I know) the Emerald Dream is just one big forest. There is no variation. No deserts, no mountains, no cities, nothing. Just one big lush forest. At best you have the Emerald Nightmare as well that is... another forest. A decaying forest, but a forest nonetheless. Green and brown replaced by red and black.

It doesn't lend itself to the variation of themes and locations one expects out of an expansion. At least with the Shadowlands you have all the possibilities of different scenarios considering we have different "afterlives". As a big content patch's new questing hub like Argus? Sure.

Dude. The Shadowlands was just a grey filter back in the day. You really think the Emerald Dream would be just a verdant forest? For once, if you base it on dreams, it can be an endless amount of things. If you base it on primordial landscapes, it can also have a variety of zones. Seems like you purposefully try to diminish it, like you usually do.

Val'sharah, no, because it wasn't part of the Emerald Dream, the dreamway, yes, because only Druids were permitted. The Nightmare, yes, because you literally want to the heart to finish the chapter, and Thros makes more sense than the two others, as it was a connection for Shadowlands and the Nightmare, Thros is not the Emerald Dream or part of it according to lore. Even Thros content should only be a patch or two.

Val'sharah mirrors it.
Only Death Knights could venture to the Shadowlands back in the day.
The Emerald Nightmare is as based in lore as the dream itself. I don't see how it's disconnected.
"As the war went on, the desperate Drust called onto dark powers. Unbeknownst to them, they had reached the Emerald Nightmare. Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was." - seems like Thros is a part of the Nightmare.

Yeah, a patch at best. Even the video creator admitted it. "Ominous clouded zone to the west, much like the timeless isle was". If we see it, it will be more Zereth Mortis than an entire expac. And, if it is only a 10.x patch, maybe that makes 11.05 the entry through the portal in Dragonlands akin to the Black Portal of Blasted lands and we spend 11.x saving the Dream from the crazy.... Night Elf Shaman.... (hints at more Race/class unlocks) who we supposedly defeat but really wanted the portal opened anyway. So if it is a patch, it will be at the end of the expac. If it is an entire expac... maybe 11.0.

Well, last pacthes used to hint at the next expansion until BFA.

Did they though? I think that's the thing.

It's not that I dislike the isles, but I do recognize the heavy influence of pre-existing zones and ideas to pull it together. That's not bad for continuity-- that can be a good thing, but that's why you get orc, night elf, fel, naga, etc fatigue.

The Dragon isles as a concept had the original idea scrapped, injected actual Dragons, then added more things because Dragons weren't enough as a solo theme(or you could argue would become overbearing if every zone was intensely dragon-ified).

That's an example for WHY the Emerald Dream shouldn't be treated the same. They'll HAVE to 1) retcon 2)invent new lore to expand on the vague info we have 3)add new or familiar things that aren't the Emerald Dream so it doesn't feel monotonous and because the solo theme of green/druids won't appeal for 2-3yrs straight

If any of those things are concern, then you wouldn't want an expansion. For myself, I doubt the execution rather than the idea.

Of course it would have more than just green, druidic forests.
As for execution, it all depends on the developers. Less so on the content itself.

Given how they fucked up Ny'alotha and made it a patch, I wouldn't put it past Blizz to make the Emerald Nightmare a patch too, provided it could even be made into a patch given the whole Emerald Nightmare raid.

Well, the Emerald Dream is more prominent than Ny'alotha, which was conceived in Cataclysm i believe.

[Lochton]

Val'sharah mirrors it.

No, it connects to it, nothing more. Just like Feralas does, or the Hinterlands, or Duskwood.

Only Death Knights could venture to the Shadowlands back in the day.

No, their magic did not take them into Shadowlands, it took them part way. It wasn't until later with the expansion that they, as well in lore, could connect with the Shadowlands.

The Emerald Nightmare is as based in lore as the dream itself.

The Nightmare is based in lore as feeding on the dream, it'll linger there for a long time.

I don't see how it's disconnected.

Because you literally went to the HEART of the Nightmare in a raid, to kill one of the biggest threats to the Emerald Dream. You weren't sent there to fight through it, or work through it, you were dumped right into the den of evil, and killed it.

"As the war went on, the desperate Drust called onto dark powers. Unbeknownst to them, they had reached the Emerald Nightmare. Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was." - seems like Thros is a part of the Nightmare.

According to lore, Thros is a world in between. They can reach the Nightmare, and they can reach Shadowlands, Emerald Dream/Nightmare is NOT connected to Shadowlands, except through Thros. I guess we can call Thros the cosmic version of the Twisting Nether.