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  1. #1

    Did Blizzard change the talent tree? Especially DK.

    14 years ago, DK can tank and dps with any spec.
    Now most websites say Blood is for tank, Frost is 1H dps and Unholy is 2H dps.

    Did Blizzard change anything compare to 14 years ago?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    14 years ago, DK can tank and dps with any spec.
    Now most websites say Blood is for tank, Frost is 1H dps and Unholy is 2H dps.

    Did Blizzard change anything compare to 14 years ago?
    The talent trees were different in 3.0 compared to 3.3.3 for DK's. I don't know if you remember, but there was a DK tri'spec that made them the top DPS with 2x Last Laughs.

    To answer your question though - Blood has a load of utility for tanking that the other trees don't. So it's probably the "best" DK tank spec when it comes to survivability. But all three specs can tank just fine in T7 and dungeons for that matter.

    That said - Unless you're in the top 0.1 % of guilds then it most likely won't matter what spec you tank as, as long as you hold aggro

  3. #3
    The DK has changed a lot.
    I don't like it.

    I will play a few heroics. Then uninstall.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    The DK has changed a lot.
    I don't like it.

    I will play a few heroics. Then uninstall.
    I mean...they haven't changed THAT much but DKs did have a lot of changes and whatnot between 3.0 and 3.3. Add in later raid gear.... Blood (like most melee specs in WoTLK) got REALLY good at DPS when 100% ArP was available and the effectiveness of the tank specs moved around all over the place as the raid went on it just so happens that 3.3 Blood is insanely good at tanking plus...and this is a big plus that yall tend to forget

    THIS IS A SOLVED GAME

  5. #5
    Legendary! SinR's Avatar
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    Job Number One of a Tank: Hold Aggro off your DPS and Healers
    Job Number Two: Survive

    Job Number One of a DPS: Pew Pew Vroom Vroom
    Job Number Two: Not Die
    Job Number Three: Mechanics

    - - - Updated - - -

    also I'm trying to figure what OP is trying to do. DPS? Tank?
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    also I'm trying to figure what OP is trying to do. DPS? Tank?
    Without him saying anything I feel 3 things

    1. Was hoping for 3.0 DK which thats on him
    2. Wanted Blood DPS to be ultra viable like it was in ICC which...you need the ArP first
    3. Wanted to Frost Duel Wield tank which is viable but its not the preferred spec so mad

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Without him saying anything I feel 3 things

    1. Was hoping for 3.0 DK which thats on him
    2. Wanted Blood DPS to be ultra viable like it was in ICC which...you need the ArP first
    3. Wanted to Frost Duel Wield tank which is viable but its not the preferred spec so mad
    Yes, exactly what you said.

    I wish to replay the original WotLK.
    Instead, Blizzard is using the classic server to "experiment" (or beta test).
    It wants to see how people react to loot rules, talent trees, etc.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Yes, exactly what you said.

    I wish to replay the original WotLK.
    Instead, Blizzard is using the classic server to "experiment" (or beta test).
    It wants to see how people react to loot rules, talent trees, etc.
    but....
    The loot rules in WoTLK is still the exact same as it was all those years ago nothing changed?
    The Talents are basically the final iteration when ICC came out the EXACT same thing BC and Vanilla did

    so with this reply either

    A. You aren't actually playing wrath and just wanted to drum up drama
    B. you paid absolutely no attention to ANYTHING they put out

  9. #9
    Complaining about something that was well known that they are gonna release with 3.3 talents and fixes.

    Claiming there is some beta test about using 12 year old things that werent changed but his nostalgia doesnt remember correctly?

    Never change mmo-champion.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    The loot rules in WoTLK is still the exact same as it was all those years ago nothing changed?
    When he says Loot Rules, he probably means how they tweaked the tiers so Ulduar gear wasn't worthless immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    When he says Loot Rules, he probably means how they tweaked the tiers so Ulduar gear wasn't worthless immediately.
    Yes, I heard heroic 5-man will drop Naxx 10-man loot. Naxx 10-man drops 25-man loot.
    If this is good, Blizzard will implement it on the retail servers.

    I don't have problem with it.
    But the classic server shouldn't change too much.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Yes, I heard heroic 5-man will drop Naxx 10-man loot. Naxx 10-man drops 25-man loot.
    If this is good, Blizzard will implement it on the retail servers.

    I don't have problem with it.
    But the classic server shouldn't change too much.
    ....it's already in retail servers?
    The ilevel of heroic loot raises with every season it's just easier to do that in classic over trying to raise the ilevel of the blue gear

  13. #13
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    Changes have taken place not only in class part (but of course a lot in it), but in characteristics. Before "dark days of LFG" (here I’m rather exaggerating, simplifying indication of “problematic occurrence in time” and not specifying reason, if implemented correctly, everything could work without this simplification), stats were an indicator of role component and their set to a much greater extent determined role that your character will play in encounters... in compendiously, it looks something like this:
    tl;dr
    1)
    tanking characteristics give bonus to effectiveness of "tanking" abilities (threat/damage/all-forms-of-avoidance), while damage abilities will naturally hit less because you'll have less common useful characteristics, hp-loss/receiving-damage in this case brings strong decrease in threat level without first ones; 2) outgoing heal significantly increases threat's level, and overheal even much stronger; 3) general PvE characteristics (hit/expertise/regeneration; don't confuse with generally useful ones) add efficiency bonus to all abilities for observing parameters of encounter (like soft-timers/resource-depletion/enrage, etc.); 4) resilience primarily affects only interactions between characters (for both having this characteristic: sums up for "supporting each other" abilities - maybe even up to a certain regeneration bonus with positive activity for healing/treating character, subtracted for "acting against" ones - up to significant decrease in effectiveness of recipient's "PvE tanking" characteristics = help attacker to partially ignore them), in other words, it gives that same increase in protection and damage in PvP activity and living without it will be very uncomfortable; 5) at the same time, if assumed, that its similar efficiency/work will be maintained in PvE, then group fully staffed in PvP stat will greatly lose in speed of achieving desired result due to insufficient PvE characteristics - they'll get misses/threat-disbalance/incoming-damage/insufficient-damage and regeneration to fulfill encounter's conditions; 6) since significant part of generally useful characteristics for PvE is taken (on items) by general PvE characteristics, and by resilence - for PvP, so generally useful characteristics/stats can remain here completely proportional to level of items received (~conditionally equivalent to each other) same as level itself, which makes use items "for other activity" still not entirely useless and creates some kind of similar to catch-up mechanics "in case of laziness/as last resort". 7) characteristics' efficiency isn't linear and grows along decaying/exponentially tending to absolute value, but never reaching it thereby creating its soft cap, only problem remains to determine stacking capacity of such within particular class, which, however, can always be compensated by talents of particular build)... in one of discussions we considered absolute case of separation, in which all white defense was replaced by "PvP-defense", and white attack by "PvP-attack" - as tier-bonus (by analogy with trinkets) from joint use of both PvP-weapons, but this deprives system of succession and catch-up functionality, which I don't like
    but if simpler, then each characteristic had its own task, and class contained only general set of abilities and mechanic, that player could use or not use at own discretion: for dk - presences, rune strike, death grip, same as many other things, were shared between specializations, which means, that equipping gear with tank characteristics any of specializations could use them, gain sufficient threat and "survive" incoming damage from mobs (all that was needed for this was - necessary equipment and knowing your class well) - which in essence is most part of being tank (some better, some worse), naturally there were some more preferred talents in branches, with which process either for tank itself, or for healer, became much easier, but these are minor details already
    - - - - -
    it was same for warriors (with stances), for paladins it was a little different, since protection branch was quite narrow due to abundance of abilities tied to shield, which weren't available fully to other specializations (and imo this was already worse realisation), but theoretically didn't prohibit (in fact, during time of overgear, this hapenned sometimes) tanking in other specializations, druids implementation was closer to paladins'
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    14 years ago, DK can tank and dps with any spec.
    Now most websites say Blood is for tank, Frost is 1H dps and Unholy is 2H dps.

    Did Blizzard change anything compare to 14 years ago?
    So, question itself isn't very correct, trees were normal and worked up to a certain point: Cata began to significantly cut classes and spoil trees, MoP removed trees and perks appeared, which were still more cross-class like, but specializations had already begun contain most of role component, WoD deleted a lot of characteristics and their work, Legion came after them and ruined scraps from rest of old system completely, what you see in preview now doesn't actually change situation much, it's only different visual system's representation... so trees weren't essentially "changed" they were removed and new system came in their place, much worse, already less thought out, but which, according to devs (lies! in any case, they made very unambiguous hints of this from certain period and each time were mistaken even in semantics) allowed classes to avoid homogenization.

    ...but in fact, all they did was mess up working system, severely limit players in stylistic component, but feeling of homogenization presence in gameplay only increased even more: because only set of abilities available to this role = gameplay is completely imposed by your specialization, of which there are only 3 and a half, and you can't get away from this within limits of available tools (new trees don't change that at all, specializations are still treated as separate unrelated to colleagues classes, that are too narrow and tied to their only "given to you by devs" role) and characteristics are too general and for the most part only customizing/amplifying direct damage, rather than role component, which means that system continues to be inoperable.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-10-03 at 09:46 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    The DK has changed a lot.
    I don't like it.

    I will play a few heroics. Then uninstall.
    This thinking is just stupid. DKs did not change. The communities knowledge did. You can still tank as any spec on wrath. We just now know which is the best one.

    Wrath is 14 years old. We know everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SinR View Post
    Job Number One of a Tank: Hold Aggro off your DPS and Healers
    Job Number Two: Survive

    Job Number One of a DPS: Pew Pew Vroom Vroom
    Job Number Two: Not Die
    Job Number Three: Mechanics

    - - - Updated - - -

    also I'm trying to figure what OP is trying to do. DPS? Tank?
    No.

    The job orders for tank is

    1: pump dps (this is your hold threat)
    2: survive

  15. #15
    What do you to tank?
    HCs? You can do it with literally any spec as it is already total faceroll.
    Raids? Oh no... my class does not have 3 tanking specs! This game sucks man!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    No.

    The job orders for tank is

    1: pump dps (this is your hold threat)
    2: survive
    You are wrong and the guy you quoted is correct.

    Max threat for a Blood DK tank comes from using every Frost and Death rune on Icy Touch (at the cost of Death Strike/Heart Strike) and using Rune Strike as your RP dump.

    Blood Dps wants to use all your Blood and Death runes on Heart Strike and dump RP with Death Coil.



    If you try to go for max Dps as a Blood Tank, you will not be able to hold the threat on the boss...
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  17. #17
    All Classic versions have launched with the last patch class balance. For WotLK that means 3.3.5 by when DK had seen nerfs and adjustments that made Blood the tanking spec and started to carve out special niches for Frost and UH dps specs.

    Doing anything with any spec was a clusterfuck that only worked because launch DK was overtuned as fuck.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    Now most websites say ... Unholy is 2H dps.
    Hahahah excuse me? What websites are you looking at? Noxxic? This is how I can tell you didn't actually look at most websites and you're just here to complain, because this is hilariously wrong.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Hahahah excuse me? What websites are you looking at? Noxxic? This is how I can tell you didn't actually look at most websites and you're just here to complain, because this is hilariously wrong.
    Its not wrong...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenogear3 View Post
    14 years ago, DK can tank and dps with any spec.
    Now most websites say Blood is for tank, Frost is 1H dps and Unholy is 2H dps.

    Did Blizzard change anything compare to 14 years ago?
    That was true with the original Wrath release. However, with patches, Unholy and Blood tanking got deprecated, so the preferred tanking spec was pretty solidly Frost.

    That said, even at Wrath release, Frost was generally considered better at tanking than either Blood or Unholy. I did tank as Unholy until the later patches even though I knew that it wasn't the best...I just found it worked well enough and I enjoyed it more.

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