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  1. #1

    Thumbs up Keyword: Unearned (rewards)

    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
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  2. #2
    Life isn't fair, neither are games.

    People don't WANT total fairness. They LIKE the random off chance to get something awesome even if you didn't sweat 200 hours to get it.

    You might not like it, but by and large the average, wide demographic of the game (and most games in general) does.

    If it really bothers you so much, play something like chess where you win on skill and nothing else (vibrating beads in select orifices not withstanding).

  3. #3
    Passive rewards are fine.

    Games don't have to be designed like jobs.

  4. #4
    This sounds like a thinly disguised, "People that arent on my level, dont deserve things" elitist rant.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned)
    to YOU.. it feels unearned to you... but follower missions give nothing thats not easily and readily available anywhere else...
    gold, rep, trade mats, pet charms? easily available via wq, some of which are so easy i would hardly call that "earned"
    gear that was worse than normal dungeon gear since 9.0? yeah, thats pretty much just vendor trash... and again, easily obtainable elsewhere...

    and if it feels unearned to you, perhaps dont use the table? apart from few misions back in 9.0 for campaign (and im not so sure about that) i dont think you had to use it at all...
    but i get it, you dont have problem that YOU get something unearned, you have problem OTHERS might get something that YOU FEEL they dont deserve... well, thats not really game issue, thats "you" issue

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned)
    nothing "Extremely important" comes from dungeons, and if (gear), then at high level where its perhaps not the hardest thing on the world, but its not unearned either...

    if you want to be a d*ck about it, NOTHING in wow requires hard work, you just sit and mash some buttons, its time consuming at best, so its all unearned...
    as far as a current reward structure goes, hardest content gives best gear, nothing else is really "important" in wow...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varanus View Post
    This sounds like a thinly disguised, "People that arent on my level, dont deserve things" elitist rant.
    really, you think its disguised? i mean its not said literaly, but its pretty much out there
    Last edited by Lolites; 2022-10-02 at 08:45 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Life isn't fair, neither are games.
    That argument is just bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    People don't WANT total fairness. They LIKE the random off chance to get something awesome even if you didn't sweat 200 hours to get it.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You might not like it, but by and large the average, wide demographic of the game (and most games in general) does.
    Not sure about that.


    RNG is nice to some extent. But if a person who is doing LFR is getting mythic ilvl items, then it's just wrong and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    You're totally right.

    Reward = effort.

    But as I wrote above:
    RNG is nice to some extent. But if a person who is doing LFR is getting mythic ilvl items, then it's just wrong and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varanus View Post
    This sounds like a thinly disguised, "People that arent on my level, dont deserve things" elitist rant.
    I mean... There's nothing wrong with that? If someone isn't putting as much effort as someone else, why would he deserve the same thing for doing less? lol

    Only special snowflakes think that they deserve the same reward because "they're paying the same for the game"
    Last edited by Eazy; 2022-10-02 at 09:43 AM.

  7. #7
    I mean, that is true. A reward system has to make you feel like you deserve what you get or that you got really lucky, otherwise it shatters the illusion and rewards start to feel boring.
    I always felt cheated, when I got more rewards from doing 30 minutes of "not content" warfronts, then from my actual "fun to play" raid that week.
    Legion legendaries, where you always got one, but wether or not it might be shit wasn't up to you and you cant try again are another good example.


    But what is earned and unearned is pretty much subjective otherwise and only has to apply to yourself.

    The mission table feels totally fine to me - I "worked" myself into a leading position of [whatever the current campaign is] by completing a bunch of quests. Now my underlings bring me scraps every morning. Feels earned to me.

    I assume some people think doing lfr/easy dungeons was actually a challenge/a big time invenstment and so they feel rightfully rewarded at the end of the run.

    Farming Hand of Justice for a month in Vanilla also felt great, even though it was only an RNG battle and not hard.

    So I think there is lots of ways to make rewards feel earned to someone and as long as they don't invalidate other content, I don't feel like it's a problem if not everyone agrees who earned what.
    Last edited by owbu; 2022-10-02 at 10:07 AM.
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  8. #8
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    It's a game, a product for entertainment and fun. It should never feel like work, much less hard work.
    Two rules for living: "Don't go around hurting each other. Try to understand things." — William Least Heat-Moon (Blue Highways)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    Mate it's a videogame, everything is as unearned as your pet dog's special treats just for doing some stupid trick you conditioned him to do.
    Except in this case it's worse because presumably you have intelligence exceeding a dog's and you conditioned yourself, Blizzard gains nothing from your "hard work", it gains from the money you pay.
    You want to genuinely earn something?
    Do something useful, get paid for it and buy it.

    Seriously this sort of retarded bullshit feedback is what contributes to the decline of the game; stop feeling entitled over running your rounds on the hamster wheel.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    Everything has it's fair price. Overpriced things are as unfair, as underpriced ones.

    Idea, that all players want to "earn" rewards - is misconception. For some players, including me, rewards are just souvenirs. Character progression - is all, that matters. And it doesn't actually matter, how it's earned.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  11. #11
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    Feels like a little entitled thread.

    Then again, people don't like when others earn something they deem not worth for others to earn

    What is this whining complaint about now? I haven't really experienced "unearned" rewards yet.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #12
    You don't earn anything in a video game , it's not a job, it's not meant to be like a job and if you see games that way you're doing it wrong. Anyone that thinks you need to "earn" gear or "work hard" for it is plain and simply put ..... an idiot. Games are a leisure activity.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    That argument is just bad.
    Actually, it's an excellent argument. We are conditioned to certain responses upon encountering disparities in the effort/reward system BECAUSE life isn't fair. If life WAS fair we couldn't appreciate the boons of chance. And artificially trying to erase that effect is not conducive to a satisfying gaming experience in most contexts for precisely that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    RNG is nice to some extent. But if a person who is doing LFR is getting mythic ilvl items, then it's just wrong and stupid.
    That's because you deliberately chose the most extreme spread. "A random chance of getting something awesome" doesn't automatically mean "oh so you're saying getting THE BEST thing from THE EASIEST activity? But that'd suck!". That's a skewed perspective you chose on purpose, don't pretend otherwise.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Problem is Blizzard redefined "hard work" to mean "be skilled" when it used to be "spend a lot of time OR be skilled", right now time spent doesn't mean anything anymore and from what I gather people would like that to count for something as well. People like having something to work their way up to at their own pace.

    But no, Blizzard listened to entitled little shits that don't want others to have what they have and put roadblocks at every turn which ultimately is one of the reasons why the game is losing subs ever since they started doing it.

    Nobody wants or expects mythic loot from lfr, but do 25 or 50 of them to earn some currency? Yeah I'd say you've earned at least something.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Actually, it's an excellent argument. We are conditioned to certain responses upon encountering disparities in the effort/reward system BECAUSE life isn't fair. If life WAS fair we couldn't appreciate the boons of chance. And artificially trying to erase that effect is not conducive to a satisfying gaming experience in most contexts for precisely that reason.
    Not really. Because if something happens to be similar to the real life - it doesnt mean it's better.

    I know where you are coming from, but I don't entirely agree. The "boon of chance" could be exciting, but it also can lead to burn out and irritation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's because you deliberately chose the most extreme spread. "A random chance of getting something awesome" doesn't automatically mean "oh so you're saying getting THE BEST thing from THE EASIEST activity? But that'd suck!". That's a skewed perspective you chose on purpose, don't pretend otherwise.
    I don't pretend anything and I exactly chose that perspective on purpose. I just shared my opinion in OPs thread - RNG is fun to some extent.
    With my comment above I just clarified my stance against warforging/titanforging rewards that are much larger than they should be.

  16. #16
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    How did anyone reply when you didn't even define what you're talking about?

    What are these unearned rewards?
    What are the passive actions?
    How are the most skilled not getting rewarded for being the most skilled?
    How are the rewards already NOT mostly cosmetic?
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  17. #17
    I am Murloc! SinR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varanus View Post
    This sounds like a thinly disguised, "People that arent on my level, dont deserve things" elitist rant.
    Glad I'm not the only one that thought that
    We're all newbs, some are just more newbier than others.

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    I'm tired. So very tired. Can I just lay my head on your lap and fall asleep?
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  18. #18
    Random rewards are essential to making MMOs addictive, look up "skinner box" for more detail. I agree WoW would be a better game without most of the RNG elements, but they aren't going anywhere due to fears about retention.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Life isn't fair
    That's why life doesn't give welfare legendaries.You have it backwards.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    nothing "Extremely important" comes from dungeons
    did you play the game the past few years? they give tier bonuses from raids inside 5mans, and at the highest level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's a game, a product for entertainment and fun. It should never feel like work, much less hard work.
    That's the wishful theory, but in practice nobody would play any multiplayer game if there was no hard work involved.
    People want to feel they tried to do something and then they beat other people at trying to do the same.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's why life doesn't give welfare legendaries.You have it backwards.
    If your definition of fairness is "everyone gets the same thing regardless of effort" then sure, but then this entire point is reversed so that's not what OP meant. They meant fairness as in reward being proportionate to effort.

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