Keyword: Unearned (rewards)

[Schizoide]

WoW is monetized via subscriptions, thus they have a strong incentive to keep people playing for as long as possible. What *isn't* possible is building enough content for MMO players to keep happily consuming it. Remember the first two weeks of an expansion? This would be that amount of new content, fresh for every two weeks across the entire two year expansion's lifetime. Since that is impossible, they focus on repeatable content.

This isn't the only MMO monetization model, but all the alternatives have perverse incentives where the developers deliberately create problems only to sell you the solutions in their cash store. Even the good ones do this, like ESO and Guild Wars 2. Subscriptions aren't great, but they are probably the most player-friendly model available.

[VinceVega]

You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).

Disagree. Randomness is the only reason the loot system is any fun at all.
A nearly 100% deterministic loot system is bpring as fuck. You can acutally calculate when you get what... no really a reason to have loot then.
Transmogs from whatever and powerup get automatically distributed once you hit certian threshhold.

Extremly important items NEED to be easy to get becuase they are as you say extremly important.... half the playerbase yould not play the game otherwise because they would be blocked by a arbitrary wall.

Yes gear should not be free and i think gear in general is so extremly easy and fast to get now... we are allready at a point where gear is getting useless. Mythic raid gear is useless when you get it because you got better gear faster via mythic+ unless you are in one of those guilds who clear mythic raids in 3 weeks.... and most are not. Mythic+ gets you there way faster and way easier.

And also yes: Unearned rewards are useless imho. But people like it sometimes to get stuff easier without a shitton of skillwalls. See the stupid treemount no one will ever use again.

[epigramx]

It's called a salary.

horrible true

get a job lol

Then why does even the most casual guild in the world, celebrate when they raise in realm rank after they down a boss even if it took them a year compared to the best guilds?
It's easy to say "nobody cares about it being hard"; it's not about being extremely hard; people are hardwired to like rewards only if they worked for it even if it was easy.

[Schizoide]

Clearly. Little kids are overjoyed when they get gifts, and they didn't work for those.

Our brains *are* hardwired, but that isn't tied to effort expended. Instead, we're hardwired to enjoy random rewards. I mentioned this a couple pages back, but look up Skinner Boxes if you're interested in a full explanation.

[VMSmith]

people are hardwired to like rewards only if they worked for it

A certain percentage of people only enjoy rewards if they think they worked for it and others can't get it. These are awful people and should be shunned.

[epigramx]

This is laughably incorrect.

Laughing at people means nothing, if you don't bring arguments. Why does even the most casual guild in the world celebrate after they achieve something after a lot of effort?

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Clearly. Little kids are overjoyed when they get gifts

That example works against you, because little kids get bored if you only give them gifts.
The fact they enjoy it less the less they work for it proves they instinctively "get it".

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A certain percentage of people only enjoy rewards if they think they worked for it and others can't get it. These are awful people and should be shunned.

That's a different subject, related to selfishness. It's a problem but not the same problem because many angry selfish people did work for it but they may be jealous of other people.

[chiddie]

Laughing at people means nothing, if you don't bring arguments. Why does even the most casual guild in the world celebrate after they achieve something after a lot of effort?

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That example works against you, because little kids get bored if you only give them gifts.
The fact they enjoy it less the less they work for it proves they instinctively "get it".

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That's a different subject, related to selfishness. It's a problem but not the same problem because many angry selfish people did work for it but they may be jealous of other people.

Honestly I am more concerned about the way you “earn” your gift than the nature of the gift itself.

It’s basically “group or gtfo” and this has made a lot of people say goodbye to the game during the years.

One month ago I picked up my fresh 60 warrior because I will probably use it as my first char in DF and wanted to raise its ilvl a bit. In one month of 101% chill I “finished” ZM and all I can do now to improve my ilvl at turtle speed is open chests to find cyphers to improve my cypher level and get slightly better gear from ZM dailies. The end.

I stopped playing when I was done with this with my enha shaman 7-8 months ago and NOTHING has changed power progression side for solo players in the meantime.

I guess DF will as bad as SL with this, since there have been ZERO blue posts about open world gear progress at the moment, will finish the story and then quit + resub at any major patch to just continue the story.

So much potential wasted. Luckily enough D4 is not so far.

[Surfd]

That's why life doesn't give welfare legendaries.You have it backwards.

Yeah, if nobody said it yet, I will 100% say it: You are utterly goddamned clueless if you actually believe that.

Life hands out welfare legendaries like they are fucking candy. Just look at every pampered-ass rich kid who coasts through life on the backs of their inherited "success" to see a perfect example of it at work: You too can live a life of luxury, if you just work hard by having your dad pay your way through an ivy league school, buy you your first car, first house, first position in a 6 figure a year job at the family business you haven't done shit to actually "earn" outside of winning the genetic lottery of being born into the right family.

Life 1000% hands out welfare legendaries, and 99% of the time it's to people who absolutely don't deserve them.

[Sarange]

Clearly. Little kids are overjoyed when they get gifts, and they didn't work for those.

Our brains *are* hardwired, but that isn't tied to effort expended. Instead, we're hardwired to enjoy random rewards. I mentioned this a couple pages back, but look up Skinner Boxes if you're interested in a full explanation.

Seems like its more about how random rewards rile animals, and people, up because we crave predictability. Which makes them put in more effort.

[Archy]

This is laughably incorrect.

While I disagree with the "only" part in the statement, the whole MMORPG genre (as it is today) is built exactly on this concept. You put effort in and get rewards. That's also the reason why too much RNG in loot is bad. Because the reward structure should be clear for people. They should be able to aim for something and be done with it.

[epigramx]

You are utterly goddamned clueless

Nobody said inheritance babies don't exist. But in the case of having an equal ground as a start: nobody is getting a free ride.

But most importantly: if and when real life is easy: people get bored if they don't work for their rewards.

[Schizoide]

That example works against you, because little kids get bored if you only give them gifts.
The fact they enjoy it less the less they work for it proves they instinctively "get it".

I've never seen or even heard about a little kid bored about receiving a gift. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I've never come across it. Ever.

Regarding "people get bored if they don't work for their rewards", I would invite you to speak to investment bankers in NYC or London. They grew up pampered with wealthy parents, went to Ivy league schools, and had every advantage. Now they're incredibly highly paid. If you ask them whether they deserve these things, whether they work for them, they will ABSOLUTELY say they did, and mean it, with every atom of their being. They work 80 hour weeks at Goldman Sachs or whatever, and sure they make $150k plus a $200k bonus, but they earned that. And they believe it. Because there's a lot of truth to it; they started with advantages but if they didn't put in the effort they wouldn't have that job and that money.

Now could a mere mortal get that job without those advantages? In theory, sure. It would just be vastly harder.

I derailed a bit there but my point is that everybody thinks they work hard, and most of us do. Sure you have some people living on trust funds and "working" 10 hours a week tending bar while DJing for soundcloud, but they're pretty rare outside of major global cities.

Seems like its more about how random rewards rile animals, and people, up because we crave predictability. Which makes them put in more effort.

Psych 101 was a long-ass time ago, but I recall that as being one theory about why skinner boxes work. That wasn't proven though, lots of psych is near-impossible to prove, that's why it's a soft science.

[epigramx]

I've never seen or even heard about a little kid bored about receiving a gift.

I don't believe you've never heard of spoiled kids. E.g. they keep getting better and better gifts. Then when you give them a gift that is not even better they may whine on top.

[Schizoide]

That isn't bored though, they still care about getting gifts very much.

Even a non-spoiled kid, you give them a pair of socks for Christmas, they're going to be unimpressed.

[Niwes]

Then why does even the most casual guild in the world, celebrate when they raise in realm rank after they down a boss even if it took them a year compared to the best guilds?
It's easy to say "nobody cares about it being hard"; it's not about being extremely hard; people are hardwired to like rewards only if they worked for it even if it was easy.

to me this seems a bit like comparing apples with oranges.

a counter-question here: do you jump up in the air and go like „hooray! i/we did it!!!“ every month, after getting your paycheck for your daily work, at the end of the month?

[John1220]

they give tier bonuses from raids inside 5mans, and at the highest level.

[Caprias]

Honestly I am more concerned about the way you “earn” your gift than the nature of the gift itself.

It’s basically “group or gtfo” and this has made a lot of people say goodbye to the game during the years.

One month ago I picked up my fresh 60 warrior because I will probably use it as my first char in DF and wanted to raise its ilvl a bit. In one month of 101% chill I “finished” ZM and all I can do now to improve my ilvl at turtle speed is open chests to find cyphers to improve my cypher level and get slightly better gear from ZM dailies. The end.

I stopped playing when I was done with this with my enha shaman 7-8 months ago and NOTHING has changed power progression side for solo players in the meantime.

I guess DF will as bad as SL with this, since there have been ZERO blue posts about open world gear progress at the moment, will finish the story and then quit + resub at any major patch to just continue the story.

So much potential wasted. Luckily enough D4 is not so far.

This has been the case for over 16 years with this game now, endgame reward loop was always group centric.

If you want to "max out" solo gaming there are games for that, no reason to destroy the mmo niche for that.

I honestly have a hard time comprehending your expectations towards an mmorpg.

[chiddie]

This has been the case for over 16 years with this game now, endgame reward loop was always group centric.

If you want to "max out" solo gaming there are games for that, no reason to destroy the mmo niche for that.

I honestly have a hard time comprehending your expectations towards an mmorpg.

I have yet to understand why ADDING something for solos (adding = “the grouped things that already exist are staying the same”) would “destroy the MMO niche”.

[WowIsDead64]

I have yet to understand why ADDING something for solos (adding = “the grouped things that already exist are staying the same”) would “destroy the MMO niche”.

I guess, that because MMO should be about "encouraging" group playing. Solo content can exist in such games, but it shouldn't be enjoyable and should always be about "suffering" some way in order to show, that group playing is always "better" option. MMO is job/sport simulator. You can do simple things solo, yeah, but complex tasks are always about teamwork.

This is common problem. It's called "Forced love syndrome". Players claim, that others actually "love" group content, but would choose solo content, if it would be viable enough, because it's path of least resistance. My opinion - if you choose solo content, then may be you don't actually love group content so much. Forcing other players to play your way - is about being selfish. It's mostly about fear, that majority of playerbase would love solo content and group content would die as result. But options are always better. They widen game's auditory. Just do, what you like. Don't think about others.

[MoanaLisa]

My opinion - if you choose solo content, then may be you don't actually love group content so much.

It's not the content that's really the problem. It's the group of often randomly thrown together players who often don't say anything unless someone makes a tiny error at which point it's enough for someone to become abusive. That's the bigger problem. It doesn't need to happen all that often but for a lot of people if it happens a few times in a short while that's enough to cause them to turn against the content.