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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's not the content that's really the problem. It's the group of often randomly thrown together players who often don't say anything unless someone makes a tiny error at which point it's enough for someone to become abusive. That's the bigger problem. It doesn't need to happen all that often but for a lot of people if it happens a few times in a short while that's enough to cause them to turn against the content.
    I don't think you can fix that... not only is it human nature but the most toxic people tend to be the ones that live on the bottom of the totem pole. A mistake in a 25 for example that kills the key is usually treated as a " whatever let's reset and do the 24"

    A mistake in a 7 were you could wipe 8-9 times that only kills one or two people usually has people abandoning the key. The easier content is the less forgiving people are to mistakes.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Solo content can exist in such games, but it shouldn't be enjoyable and should always be about "suffering" some way in order to show, that group playing is always "better" option. MMO is job/sport simulator. You can do simple things solo, yeah, but complex tasks are always about teamwork.
    That sort of thing is what WoW was explicitly built to destroy from day one.

    You may well prefer Everquest's approach, but it'll never happen in WoW-- and EQ is still available to play, if you're interested, although my guess is it retreated at least somewhat from forced dependency to foster solo play too, just due to reality being that's what players want.

    That sort of MMO fell out of favor so long ago that I really question whether many of you guys played it in its prime. It's true that forced dependency combined with small non-phased populations controlled toxicity because your server reputation truly mattered, but the tradeoff was horribly grindy solo gameplay, to such an extent that even modern Asian MMO players wouldn't accept it.

    Coming back to reality, it's pretty simple. Lots of people enjoy playing MMOs solo, like single-player games with other people running around in the background. That doesn't mean they never participate in group or raid content, they do when they feel like it, but solo stuff is relaxing, less stressful, and they enjoy that. It's a popular playstyle so games will support it, simple as that.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2022-10-18 at 01:09 PM.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    its quite funny - i took a break from wow till DF launch and i started to play into stupid active passive base building / pvp mobile game - one of those cash grab ones (only hting i spend was 15 euro on robot collecting resources automaticly since im lazy ) and god i have a blast when my base slowly rises and when i obliterate fresh non-allied players :0

    is there any chalenge there ? 0. is it fun - oh god yes it is

    you opinion doesnt represent majority of current age players.

    one DF launches i will be back - but i do enjoy random GV rewards in wow - will be supper sad about mission table and passive gold income gone - but dont really care - worst case i will just buy 10-20 tokens .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2022-10-18 at 01:11 PM.

  4. #84
    I'm extremely happy about the mission table being removed. I was OK with its implementation in BFA because it didn't give much gold, but Shadowlands' table is worse than WoD. Not worse than Legion, though, far from it.

  5. #85
    I was sold on WoW 17yrs ago on two things; soloability, and fun factor. Prior to that I'd been playing EQ which was very unfriendly to the solo player to say the least. Leveling in EQ took an amazing amount of time...hell, doing anything took time in that. Dying, corpse runs, and odds were good you would de-level...

    WoW was such a breath of fresh air back then for my solo self.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You know when a movie plays pompous music when nothing important happens (that's unearned) or when they hail a leader that did nothing important (that's unearned) or when they start spamming cliche phrases of triumph when nothing important was achieved (that's unearned)?

    Something similar happens when a game has things like follower systems to get passive rewards (it feels unearned); or when they give extremely important items from easy small dungeons (it is unearned); or when RNG plays the most important role (randomness is de facto unearned).

    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    Who wants their entertainment to be "hard work"? Genuine question.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I have yet to understand why ADDING something for solos (adding = “the grouped things that already exist are staying the same”) would “destroy the MMO niche”.
    There have arguably been more solo/solo friendly additions to the game in the last 5 years than ever before, but what I've quoted from you is clearly about gear/power progression and I just doubt that will ever fundamentally change.

    Power/gear reward structure should make logical sense and take effort and investment into consideration, the game has largely operated on that premise since its inception on the grounds of adding an incentive to group play, a pure solo play structured progression would have to take the PvE endgame paths into account to not completely derail those.

    So for example, I wouldn't mind a solo play path to gearing even into mythic level items, but if your ""average"" cutting edge guild takes 3-4 months to get people mostly mythic-near BiS equipped while putting in quite a bit of effort and hours how long and grindy would that parallel solo gearing path look? Would that even be used by most casual players? I doubt it.

  8. #88
    If you want to play Chess, you need to win at least 50 competitive matches against ranked opponents before you're allowed to use the Queen. Rooks and Knights are random unlocks that the Chess federation will grant you after every match you win at a 1% chance. Solo players that only play against computers are only allowed to use pawns.

    Because fun must be earned, right?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I don't think you can fix that... not only is it human nature but the most toxic people tend to be the ones that live on the bottom of the totem pole. A mistake in a 25 for example that kills the key is usually treated as a " whatever let's reset and do the 24"

    A mistake in a 7 were you could wipe 8-9 times that only kills one or two people usually has people abandoning the key. The easier content is the less forgiving people are to mistakes.
    Why so called toxic players are usually blamed for problems in random group content? My own experience: toxic players - are usually more hardcore or elitist players, who demand too much from casual players. Like playing leveling dungeons as if they would be M+. And problems in random group content usually happen because it's impossible to do hard group content without coordination. Players, you play with in random dungeon content - are always different. Therefore it's pointless to teach them. They should learn by themselves. That's why back in WotLK/Cata times it was about "Haven't read guide? Don't go to dungeon/raid.". But it's not possible to force everybody to learn. It's not possible to force players to follow proper progress curve, i.e. prevent them from going to dungeons/raids, when they aren't ready. And silently leaving dungeon in case of fail - is normal reaction. I also was doing it back in Cata times, when dungeons were overtuned. It happens because players don't want to waste their time. Yeah, first they try to deal with it, but then they realize, that it's pointless. If RNG God doesn't like them, then it's better to get deserter debuff and play something else, than just play corpse run simulator. And yeah. If it happens for long enough time - players turn against content. Trying to force casuals to git gut, adapt, improve and do hard content - is counter productive. This is real reason, why Cata's design failed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    That sort of thing is what WoW was explicitly built to destroy from day one.

    You may well prefer Everquest's approach, but it'll never happen in WoW-- and EQ is still available to play, if you're interested, although my guess is it retreated at least somewhat from forced dependency to foster solo play too, just due to reality being that's what players want.

    That sort of MMO fell out of favor so long ago that I really question whether many of you guys played it in its prime. It's true that forced dependency combined with small non-phased populations controlled toxicity because your server reputation truly mattered, but the tradeoff was horribly grindy solo gameplay, to such an extent that even modern Asian MMO players wouldn't accept it.

    Coming back to reality, it's pretty simple. Lots of people enjoy playing MMOs solo, like single-player games with other people running around in the background. That doesn't mean they never participate in group or raid content, they do when they feel like it, but solo stuff is relaxing, less stressful, and they enjoy that. It's a popular playstyle so games will support it, simple as that.
    Yeah, initially Wow was designed to beat grindy MMOs. But today Blizzard seem to want to return to so called "MMO roots". Because solo content is usually badly designed and doesn't get enough attention, so it's easier to do M+, than deal with it. Or buy gold for $$$ and then buy boost to M+.
    Last edited by WowIsDead64; 2022-10-19 at 05:50 AM.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I guess, that because MMO should be about "encouraging" group playing. Solo content can exist in such games, but it shouldn't be enjoyable and should always be about "suffering" some way in order to show, that group playing is always "better" option. MMO is job/sport simulator. You can do simple things solo, yeah, but complex tasks are always about teamwork.

    This is common problem. It's called "Forced love syndrome". Players claim, that others actually "love" group content, but would choose solo content, if it would be viable enough, because it's path of least resistance. My opinion - if you choose solo content, then may be you don't actually love group content so much. Forcing other players to play your way - is about being selfish. It's mostly about fear, that majority of playerbase would love solo content and group content would die as result. But options are always better. They widen game's auditory. Just do, what you like. Don't think about others.
    Yep, the over emphasis on "group content" and the social aspects in games is annoying.
    It's not everyone's preference. I have social anxiety, for instance. It doesn't mean that I don't like to be with, or do things with other pople, but it does mean that for me it's not relaxing.

    In a game like wow i like short term, no strings attached group gameplay, like battlegrounds. Anything that requires long term commitment towards a group, be it being part of a guild or of an arena team is a non starter. I've tried to make these things work multiple times and for me it doesn't.
    I simply need the freedom to play when I want but also to not play when I don't want to, and that doesn't work if a group of people counts on your attendance.

    Which is, of course, why game companies are so fixated on cooperative content and social aspects. They know that it creates attachments to their games that pulls people back. When they say shit like "everything is better with friends" what they really mean is that it's better for them because social ties are a huge factor in keeping players in their games.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    Yep, the over emphasis on "group content" and the social aspects in games is annoying.
    It's not everyone's preference. I have social anxiety, for instance. It doesn't mean that I don't like to be with, or do things with other pople, but it does mean that for me it's not relaxing.

    In a game like wow i like short term, no strings attached group gameplay, like battlegrounds. Anything that requires long term commitment towards a group, be it being part of a guild or of an arena team is a non starter. I've tried to make these things work multiple times and for me it doesn't.
    I simply need the freedom to play when I want but also to not play when I don't want to, and that doesn't work if a group of people counts on your attendance.

    Which is, of course, why game companies are so fixated on cooperative content and social aspects. They know that it creates attachments to their games that pulls people back. When they say shit like "everything is better with friends" what they really mean is that it's better for them because social ties are a huge factor in keeping players in their games.
    Yeah. For me it's also about freedom. Freedom to play early in a morning for example. Relying on other players means I JUST CAN'T play, when I want. I log into game, can't do anything, log out and have to play something else.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, initially Wow was designed to beat grindy MMOs. But today Blizzard seem to want to return to so called "MMO roots". Because solo content is usually badly designed and doesn't get enough attention, so it's easier to do M+, than deal with it. Or buy gold for $$$ and then buy boost to M+.
    I don't think that's why.

    Historically the WoW team has been HEAVILY influenced by other titles being developed at Blizzard. The transformative positive changes in the Diablo 3 expansion came to WoW. Adventure mode became world quests. Greater rifts became mythic+. Smart loot became personal loot.

    Classic released and was extremely successful. The live WoW team saw that and decided to revert much of the QoL in what was at the time live WoW, leading to some changes I (personally) hate like shaman totems being party-wide, unpruning abilities that make no sense in service to "play the class not the spec", reverting Legion changes like giving Fire mages frostbolt, and so on. Some changes I'm ambivalent about too, like the new talent trees in Dragonflight, we'll need to see how they turn out.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I don't think that's why.

    Historically the WoW team has been HEAVILY influenced by other titles being developed at Blizzard. The transformative positive changes in the Diablo 3 expansion came to WoW. Adventure mode became world quests. Greater rifts became mythic+. Smart loot became personal loot.
    It wasn't Diablo. These ideas were taken from other MMOs, like GW2.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  14. #94
    WoW is heavily influenced by other Blizzard games either in development or recently released. The timing fits, these features always come in the next WoW expansion a year or two later. D3: Reaper of Souls is a particularly close match.

    That doesn't mean Blizzard invented those design choices, of course. Warhammer Online had public quests way before GW2's implementation or WoW world quests.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    WoW is heavily influenced by other Blizzard games either in development or recently released. The timing fits, these features always come in the next WoW expansion a year or two later. D3: Reaper of Souls is a particularly close match.

    That doesn't mean Blizzard invented those design choices, of course. Warhammer Online had public quests way before GW2's implementation or WoW world quests.
    I just don't think, that it's fair to call Blizzard so genius, that all ideas in their games - are unique ideas, invented by themselves. So called dynamic events - had already been well known feature by that time and was used in many games, like GW2 and Firefall (may be others, but I didn't play them). Almost everything post-WOD had already been implemented in some other MMOs. Transmogs, difficulty scaling, CRZ, etc.

    What's wrong with direction of development? Inclusivity is priceless - race change for free!

  16. #96
    Oh for sure. Blizzard has never invented much of anything of consequence. Mythic+ is similar to GW2 fractals too. Blizzard's "thing" is (or perhaps was) taking the best pieces from other games, polishing them to a blinding shine, and putting them in their own titles. Sometimes this works like Overwatch 1, and sometimes it doesn't, like Herpes of the Storm.

    Speaking of which, I'm still to this day shocked Overwatch 2 doesn't have a battle royale mode.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Blizzard has never invented much of anything of consequence.
    Blizzard invented competitive RTS. They invented the game and engine that inspired the entire MOBA genre. They invented the 'casual' MMO that became the biggest game in the social zeitgeist for years, a game that had peak subscriber numbers the size of many countries. They invented the modern ARPG with Diablo 2/LOD. Claiming they never 'invented' anything is moronic because it can only be true if you also don't believe any eminent musician past Beethoven or writer since Shakespeare 'invented' anything.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzx View Post
    Blizzard invented competitive RTS. They invented the game and engine that inspired the entire MOBA genre. They invented the 'casual' MMO that became the biggest game in the social zeitgeist for years, a game that had peak subscriber numbers the size of many countries. They invented the modern ARPG with Diablo 2/LOD. Claiming they never 'invented' anything is moronic because it can only be true if you also don't believe any eminent musician past Beethoven or writer since Shakespeare 'invented' anything.
    Blizzard didn't a Korean tv station did. Blizzard has tried for a successful competitive esport for over 20 years now trying to replicate it.

    Blizzard doesn't create. They used to refine but that broke a while ago now they just poorly mimic .

  19. #99
    Right, other people created the gamestyles then Blizzard built support in. That's what they do (did?) best, they refine and polish.

    Diablo 1 (not 2, that was a weird thing to say) was a true invention, creating a new genre. Roguelikes existed before, but not with action gameplay and not graphically presented. That was a different studio, though-- Blizzard North. Similar name but separate.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2022-10-24 at 02:54 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    They should reward hard work above else; anything passive should be for pure artistic enjoyment and not unearned rewards; randomness should be kept to a minimum and not be used for excessively powerful rewards (unearned).
    Define "Hard work", is grinding a reputation over the course of months "hard work"?

    Or is this what i suspect it is, a thinly-veiled "Raid or GTFO!"-thread?

    IMO playing the game, even easier content, over a long period of time is as much "Hard work" (Weird term for a game, which is supposed to be entertainment, but i digress) as raidlogging is.

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