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  1. #1

    Question Restrict Mythic Loot for Use in Mythic Content - Save Traditional Gearing?

    The problem:

    While in theory, a player should be ready for Normal Raids when geared in Dungeon Heroic Loot, this is often not accepted by other players.

    This means the gearing player must use additional stepping stones such as LFR for a minor upgrade, or more likely the M+ grind and Vault, which ultimately Out-Gears Normal Raids quickly.


    Solutions:

    Make Normal raids require M0 ilvl gear instead? Further nullifying the Norm/Heroic dungeon progression, but ensuring this already 'necessary' step is not over-productive?

    Or
    Restrict Mythic Item Drops for use in Mythic level content.

    This way Mythic-aspirant players can keep to their own dedicated player type, and non-Mythic-aspirant players aren't encouraged to dip into that form of content.


    You want to climb the ranks of Mythic raiding? Well chances are you're already the type to run Mythic+ dungeons,

    But if I want to run Normal Raid content, I'm being encouraged into the M+ grinder with all of these players that have a much much higher bar for their goals, and therefore attitudes/expectations. This bleeds into Normal Raid pug culture as well.

    So ideally instead, funnel the Mythic players into Mythic content, and remove M+ as the disruptive Gearing Stepstone it has become for non-Mythic-aspirant players.

    It's not that the M+ content is hard, it's just also not objectively desirable gameplay. Quite repetitive in fact
    .

    Would this not breathe life back into the familiar Normal ---> Heroic gearing path?

    N Dungeons, H Dungeons, N Raids, H Raids.
    Simple baselines undisturbed by the ever-growing intensity of the Key pushing culture.

    In this case, Mythic Raiders, like any other raiders, can work through N/H Raids for Tier while also having the bonus of their hard-earned M+ loot for when they tackle the M Raids.
    Normal and Heroic Raiding is kept a traditional, unmuddied progression path of its own.

    You may ask, why not then restrict PvP gear to PvP content, and PvE to PvE?
    Well I argue because PvP is not a bonus difficulty like M+/Mythic Raiding, but another traditional core progression option, along with Professions.

    tldr
    The main idea is make it realistically possible to earn Normal and Heroic Tier without having to touch M+ , but what are the consequences of this idea?

    Just want to see thoughts on this.
    Last edited by elderu; 2022-10-07 at 01:06 AM.

  2. #2
    adding extra steps to gearing is a bad idea

    a lot of people use mythic plus to supplement their gear because their group as a whole is just heroic level because jimmy and timmy are slackers

  3. #3
    I don't see the issue here to fix... surely all the people who couldn't join a one shot farm group would simply male their own raids and invite everyone else denied no?

  4. #4
    From a game design standpoint, you want players to have lots of ways to get their dopamine fix every week. That's what keeps people logging in. Easiest way to give shots of dopamine is gear upgrades. Transmogs count. Nevermind that it's all a hamster wheel. Changing anything to make this harder is a no-go.

    To Infinity and Beyond!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by elderu View Post
    The problem:

    While in theory, a player should be ready for Normal Raids when geared in Dungeon Heroic Loot, this is often not accepted by other players.

    This means the gearing player must use additional stepping stones such as LFR for a minor upgrade, or more likely the M+ grind and Vault, which ultimately Out-Gears Normal Raids quickly.


    Solutions:

    Make Normal raids require M0 ilvl gear instead? Further nullifying the Norm/Heroic dungeon progression, but ensuring this already 'necessary' step is not over-productive?

    Or
    Restrict Mythic Item Drops for use in Mythic level content.

    This way Mythic-aspirant players can keep to their own dedicated player type, and non-Mythic-aspirant players aren't encouraged to dip into that form of content.


    You want to climb the ranks of Mythic raiding? Well chances are you're already the type to run Mythic+ dungeons,

    But if I want to run Normal Raid content, I'm being encouraged into the M+ grinder with all of these players that have a much much higher bar for their goals, and therefore attitudes/expectations. This bleeds into Normal Raid pug culture as well.

    So ideally instead, funnel the Mythic players into Mythic content, and remove M+ as the disruptive Gearing Stepstone it has become for non-Mythic-aspirant players.

    It's not that the M+ content is hard, it's just also not objectively desirable gameplay. Quite repetitive in fact
    .


    Would this not breathe life back into the familiar Normal ---> Heroic gearing path?

    N Dungeons, H Dungeons, N Raids, H Raids.
    Simple baselines undisturbed by the ever-growing intensity of the Key pushing culture.

    In this case, Mythic Raiders, like any other raiders, can work through N/H Raids for Tier while also having the bonus of their hard-earned M+ loot for when they tackle the M Raids.

    Normal and Heroic Raiding is kept a traditional, unmuddied progression path of its own.

    You may ask, why not then restrict PvP gear to PvP content, and PvE to PvE?
    Well I argue because PvP is not a bonus difficulty like M+/Mythic Raiding, but another traditional core progression option, along with Professions.

    tldr
    The main idea is make it realistically possible to earn Normal and Heroic Tier without having to touch M+ , but what are the consequences of this idea?

    Just want to see thoughts on this.
    Bolded for truth (though isn't the same true for raiding? Only pvp features changing enemies).

    But honestly: They should either keep everything in a designated lane (raid gear only works best in raids, pvp gear only works best in pvp, m+ gear only works best in m+, and in all others and the overworld it is equal-ish) or just allow everything to be used everywhere.

    But this retarded mix-up system we have at present?
    Please just end its suffering and the nuisance it causes, because all it does is make people hate raiders and raiding. And for good reason, so long as the system persists.
    Last edited by loras; 2022-10-07 at 01:12 AM.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  6. #6
    Realistically they should just make it so that mythic+ gear is increased in ilvl in mythic+ dungeons by 15-30 ilvl or so so that mythic+ gear is the best for mythic+s and so that it can be lower level than raid gear in raids. People who don't want to do mythic+ wouldn't have to and people who don't want to raid wouldn't have to.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by elderu View Post
    It's not that the M+ content is hard, it's just also not objectively desirable gameplay. Quite repetitive in fact
    This seems to be the core of your problem, and that invalidates your whole post. A metric fuck-ton of people enjoy M+, and have no problem running it repeatedly for gear. Claiming it's "not objectively desirable gameplay" is just an absolute fallacy backed by nothing but ignorance.

  8. #8
    Good work inventing a problem nobody has ever had then providing a solution that nobody wants.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2022-10-07 at 02:40 AM. Reason: a words

  9. #9
    I really think you're on to something.

    Literally just cap all ilvls at the current difficulty's ilvl, maybe just as a toggle with achievements or cosmetics or something to encourage it.

  10. #10
    Stop trying to gimp and devalue parts of the game YOU don't like.

  11. #11
    How about this crazy idea. Everything awards valor from raids to callings to dungeons and you use that valor to buy Heroic Item level gear from a vender so that way normal raiders have a progression path, heroic raids have a progression path and mythic plus players have a progression path. Since Mythic raids cant be balanced around having higher itemlevel then whats available in heroic and since keys go to 18 they have to balanced around gear from 16s and 17s. Make a shopping list and be done with it and no there is no interesting choices when everything is figured out before it is even released so stop with that nonsense unless blizzard removes the ability to datamine or log or whatever to increase freedom.

    Just copy a good endgame deterministic system from FF14 its not very hard here. https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...gan_Tomestones
    Last edited by jeezusisacasual; 2022-10-07 at 02:03 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    Realistically they should just make it so that mythic+ gear is increased in ilvl in mythic+ dungeons by 15-30 ilvl or so so that mythic+ gear is the best for mythic+s and so that it can be lower level than raid gear in raids. People who don't want to do mythic+ wouldn't have to and people who don't want to raid wouldn't have to.
    Heyy, Bingo! It's about as genius as it is obvious. Thanks.

    Mythic loot could simply be Heroic loot with a Mythic-Required enabling passive effect that boosts Stat/iLvl within Mythic content.

    An item example:

    Outside of Mythic content:

    [Helm of the Vigorous]
    Item Level 200 (220)
    Soulbound
    64 Armor (84)
    +32 Agility (+52)
    +61 Stamina (+81)
    +26 Critical Strike (+46)
    +21 Haste (+41)
    Durability 85/85


    Inside of Mythic content:

    [Helm of the Vigorous]
    Item Level 200 (220)
    Soulbound
    64 Armor (84)
    +32 Agility (+52)
    +61 Stamina (+81)
    +26 Critical Strike (+46)
    +21 Haste (+41)
    Durability 85/85


    but yknow, more realistic stat changes. I'm no math wiz.

  13. #13
    *** OR ***

    We could agree that Mythic raid difficulty is 1000000000% "overkill".
    Instead of that, we should make both normal and hc considerably harder.

    In fact, heroic raid difficulty should be hard AF. And instead of nerfing boss fights 7213947123 times in 1 patch, we should get 5, 10, 15, 20.... (up to 30% cap) % dmg/healing done buff. Just as we did back in ICC and DS.

    We REALLY dont need that many difficulties and 50+ ilvls per 1 raid tier.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    Realistically they should just make it so that mythic+ gear is increased in ilvl in mythic+ dungeons by 15-30 ilvl or so so that mythic+ gear is the best for mythic+s and so that it can be lower level than raid gear in raids. People who don't want to do mythic+ wouldn't have to and people who don't want to raid wouldn't have to.
    No thanks, I'm definitely not on board with that idea, PvE gear should be the same for all content not scaling like the PvP does, to my knowledge the PvP gear scales to try and combat PvErs wrecking PvPers with raiding/m+ items and allows PvP to serve as a viable gearing path for people who want to pvp and only pvp. I can't see your suggestion going well with the M+ community at large.

  15. #15
    I don't think there should be multiple iLevels of raid gear. Make harder difficulties be about tackling harder versions of the same content instead of yet another version of the same treadmill. Have them award cooler and cooler cosmetics for the bragging rights instead of higher quality gear. Progressing through the same raid multiple times as a part of the gearing process is pretty damned exhausting anyway.

  16. #16
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    Sounds bad just horrible. No tnx.

  17. #17
    Sounds like what you really want is an automated M+ tool where you can queue up instead of having to negotiate group invites on LFD. And that's more of a "you" problem than it is a systemic problem, though I suppose that M0 getting an auto queue is not an unreasonable ask.

  18. #18
    i Like the idea of sets for different content, we already have this with pvp gear/pve gear, but it would be cool if m+ gear would scale up in m+ like arena gear. They could also add world gear, they always have a faction or rep every main patch, why not add gear tied to that faction/rep that massively buffs your stats when wearing it for open world quests etc, they could add really cool speed or movement affects then too that would only work in open world and add a bit of fun back into that part of the game. You could even have a set related to old raid farming that make speed clearing old raids easier

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by elderu View Post
    It's not that the M+ content is hard, it's just also not objectively desirable gameplay.
    nope, not objectively at all, its YOUR OPINION, thats subjective, use the words with their respective meaning properly...
    there is plenty of normal pugs that accesp people in low gear, or you can join guild or you can make your own group, stop trying to solve "problem" that doesnt exist by making the game worse for others...

    also making argument that something in mmorpg is repetitive is rich, like if the raid is completely different every week... the whole genre is based on repetition of the same few things...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Good work inventing a problem nobody has ever had then providing a solution that nobody wants.
    yeah, pretty much this

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    (though isn't the same true for raiding? Only pvp features changing enemies).
    That's not really even true.. If you're up against, say, a rogue in PvP, you'll know generally how they'll play. If you're up against a priest, you'll know how they'll play. You know what CC they have, when they're likely to use it, what kind of healing / damage they'll do, etc.
    Same with m+ and raids, you know what mechanics they have, but where void zones are placed, who gets targeted etc is still "random"
    But honestly: They should either keep everything in a designated lane (raid gear only works best in raids, pvp gear only works best in pvp, m+ gear only works best in m+, and in all others and the overworld it is equal-ish)
    This however, is true.
    PvP gear is currently best in pvp (in most cases), but M+ and raid gear is completely interchangeable, except raid offers higher ilvl gear, and more often than you have any chance of getting from m+, while m+ offers mid-tier farmable gear.
    They should just make it so that m+ gear is 311-equivalent in m+, and 298-equivalent in other content, raid gear is 311 in raids and 298 in other content, and pvp gear can stay as it is, because it already works like that.
    You'll still have some outliers where you want gear from other content, but it's not as required as it is now.
    Also open catalyst at the start, it's stupid that non-raiders have to wait 10 weeks to get their full tier set.

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