If the devs admit that PvP sucks with grinding for gear: why is PvE different?

[Alvito]

It's the same with extra steps. It never gets easier to rank in PvE because the competition is 100% humans (including inside-the-guild competition).
It's just an annoying grind that delays the actual competition because the entire competition has to grind to compete.

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No. Even the most casual guild in the world celebrate if they raise rank in their realm (even if they claim they don't care before they do it).
And for the hard core people: it goes without saying PvE for them is purely competition for rankings and absolutely nothing else.

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And I could flip the argument against itself. PvP can be also fun. Why is PvP only competition?

I raided at the highest level of raid difficulty from BC to BfA most of that time as a raid lead and I can say I never gave a shit about what others were doing unless we were in some situation where one group was trying to poach from others. At most with some.people it would come up in recruiting. Smart groups that don't want to restructure constantly or keep finding new groups realize it is a marathon not a sprint and curating a good group with longevity is what you focus on. I saw a few hundred of these, we are going to be the best guild fizzle out or never come to be. Another reminder of focusing on what strangers are doing instead of what you are doing is a broken mindset.

[epigramx]

I raided at the highest level of raid difficulty from BC to BfA most of that time as a raid lead and I can say I never gave a shit about what others were doing unless we were in some situation where one group was trying to poach from others. At most with some.people it would come up in recruiting. Smart groups that don't want to restructure constantly or keep finding new groups realize it is a marathon not a sprint and curating a good group with longevity is what you focus on. I saw a few hundred of these, we are going to be the best guild fizzle out or never come to be. Another reminder of focusing on what strangers are doing instead of what you are doing is a broken mindset.

Even if what you say was true for PvE, why would it be different for PvP when they admit PvP sucks to grind for gear and supposedly PvE doesn't?
Is PvP just torture and "competition" and never fun?

[Alvito]

Even if what you say was true for PvE, why would it be different for PvP when they admit PvP sucks to grind for gear and supposedly PvE doesn't?
Is PvP just torture and "competition" and never fun?

If it was torture nobody would do it, they certainly would pay to do it. As many have pointed out some of the gear issue in pvp is others are also getting stronger in gear while you are also facing better players if you win. You also hit a point in many seasons where all you are facing is people who have gotten their pvp weapons and you are facing them to try to get to the rating to get those much better items. You also drop in rating as you lose. In pve if you wipe you don't lower your chance to get gear the same way.

[epigramx]

If it was torture nobody would do it, they certainly would pay to do it. As many have pointed out some of the gear issue in pvp is others are also getting stronger in gear while you are also facing better players if you win. You also hit a point in many seasons where all you are facing is people who have gotten their pvp weapons and you are facing them to try to get to the rating to get those much better items. You also drop in rating as you lose. In pve if you wipe you don't lower your chance to get gear the same way.

It's the same with extra steps. If you don't gear up fast enough for PvE: the boss stays stronger than you; you will wipe more on it; just like you will wipe more against actual humans in PvP.
The overarching concept here is that you trust the word of devs who have never tried anything different; why do you know it's better; it might be better to not grind for gear for PvE.

[Amariw]

It's the same with extra steps. If you don't gear up fast enough for PvE: the boss stays stronger than you; you will wipe more on it; just like you will wipe more against actual humans in PvP.
The overarching concept here is that you trust the word of devs who have never tried anything different; why do you know it's better; it might be better to not grind for gear for PvE.

Maybe you feel different. Personally i don't want gear in pvp, but i do want it in pve. The climb is enjoyable. Maybe some other game will do without it and you'd like it more, but personally i'm happy wow keeps it (for pve).

[epigramx]

Maybe you feel different. Personally i don't want gear in pvp, but i do want it in pve. The climb is enjoyable. Maybe some other game will do without it and you'd like it more, but personally i'm happy wow keeps it (for pve).

It's a total waste of time before the fun of actually playing PvE. Also it's impossible to buy that PvE is not for competition, when the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise in ranks against other humans (even if they claim they don't care before it happens) and when there is a world-first race that almost all PvE players follow and when people compete with each other inside their own team.

[Alvito]

It's the same with extra steps. If you don't gear up fast enough for PvE: the boss stays stronger than you; you will wipe more on it; just like you will wipe more against actual humans in PvP.
The overarching concept here is that you trust the word of devs who have never tried anything different; why do you know it's better; it might be better to not grind for gear for PvE.

The word of devs has nothing to do with why or when pve is difficult or pvp.

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It's a total waste of time before the fun of actually playing PvE. Also it's impossible to buy that PvE is not for competition, when the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise in ranks against other humans (even if they claim they don't care before it happens) and when there is a world-first race that almost all PvE players follow and when people compete with each other inside their own team.

World first is a different thing than others following their own rankings. Race for world first are doing it for a job as well as fun. Not anything close most people playing at home. I watch basketball and football championship games that doesn't mean when I play those games with friends I or we are doing it just for strangers praise or to win. You do it for the love of the game for some, others for exercise. It seems you may not realize people do things for reasons you don't understand or consider.

[Accendor]

It's the same with extra steps. Nobody would care to rank in PvE if it was only them and NPCs; they explictly want to rank against other people; also inside the same team they constantly compete with each other and not with NPCs.

The argument can be reversed on top too (partly): "you don't exactly fight a human in PvP but the SPELLS the devs gave that human to play with".

Dude, honestly, you base assumption is flawed.
PVE in its core is not about competing against other players, it's about overcoming challenges together. If you finish that +28, for most people I know the reward comes from the fact that YOU made it, not from the fact, that others didn't.
If you see PVE content mainly as another form of PVP, that's a cognition that most likely is only shared by a minority and at least in my personal opinion I think the feeling that you always compete with somebody, no matter what you do, is very unhealthy.

[Nalam the Venom]

It's the same with extra steps. Nobody would care to rank in PvE if it was only them and NPCs; they explictly want to rank against other people; also inside the same team they constantly compete with each other and not with NPCs.

The argument can be reversed on top too (partly): "you don't exactly fight a human in PvP but the SPELLS the devs gave that human to play with".

PvE is about the carrot on a stick.

While i have atleast one item to chase i am super excited to play and hunt these items constantly.

But once you finally get them there is this dread of ”What now?” And the motivation to login to that character anymore is just gone.

That’s when you make an alt and start the cycle anew.

Getting all the items instantly or faster would kill any drive to play for me.

[epigramx]

If you finish that +28, for most people I know the reward comes from the fact that YOU made it, not from the fact, that others didn't

That's a fallacy, because nobody cares if you got +999 if everyone else gets it easily.
You ONLY care that you did something hard compared to other people.

[Aleksej89]

Competition in PvE is extremely niche imho, most players just wanna beat the bosses on ever higher difficulties.
There might be some natural competition on the DPS meters but this whole "guild vs guild" or "server vs server" thing is ultra rare as far as i have seen.

[Squigglyo]

How do you explain there is a world-first race in PvE (teams VS teams of actual real players) that most people either play in or follow it if there is "no competition"?

There being a World First race for the new raid is different from PVP.
For one, a ridiculously small minority compete in it, and slightly larger, but still small minority of players actually care about it.

Secondly, the race is over once its won. PVP is a new 'race' every single battleground, with the rating being the meta for the actual 'race'.
PVE is over the second someone gets to the finish line. PVP is a constant 'race' for the entire season. With 1000s of mini races along the way.

How do you explain that even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise ranking against other guilds (even if they thought they don't care)?

I explain it by disagreeing? Next to nobody, outside of the top 100 guilds care about their rank. The rest of the players, the 99.99%, literally dont care.
Certainly 'the most casual guild in the world' wouldnt even know their rank, let alone care even slightly about how they rank compared to other guilds.



PVP is all about your rank. Knowing how you compare to everyone else. Competing with everyone else and against everyone else.
Trying to pretend PVP is in any way similair to PVE is just stupid. Gearing is different, gameplay is different, requirements are different, team dynamics are different. There is nothing that PVE and PVP share in any way when it comes to the 'race' or 'progression'

[epigramx]

Competition in PvE is extremely niche imho

It's the only thing they care about. If they couldn't compare themselves to other people and say "I am better than them in PvE": they wouldn't even play (beyond running the instances once like a single-player game) even if they got 999 ilevel gear.

It's why even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise rank in their realm even if they claim all they want they don't care before it happens.

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99.99%, literally dont care.

Science fiction. I've been in multiple casual raiding guilds and they ALWAYS LOVE IT if they raise rank after they down a boss; why wouldn't they; all humans love feeling better compared to others.

PVP is all about your rank.

Easily flipped argument: if you hate the PvP gameplay on its own: why would you even play?

[Lolites]

How do you explain there is a world-first race in PvE (teams VS teams of actual real players) that most people either play in or follow it if there is "no competition"?

https://streamscharts.com/news/wow-r...her-first-ones

less than 80k average viewers, 250k peak, if wow is even at single milion (most pesimistic guesses put it around 1.3-1.5) and only people with wow sub watch it (which i doubt), its still MINORITY of people...
maybe start considering that your opinion and reality are two EXTREMELY DIFFERENT things...

and i dont even adress the ridiculous notion that most people play it...

[Aleksej89]

It's the only thing they care about. If they couldn't compare themselves to other people and say "I am better than them in PvE": they wouldn't even play (beyond running the instances once like a single-player game) even if they got 999 ilevel gear.
It's why even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise rank in their realm even if they claim all they want they don't care before it happens.

I cant say i ever encountered such PVE raiding players in game, except on the forums.
I am sure you can find them if you look hard enough but none of the people i played with ever mentioned some "rank realm" of the guild.
No one outside-of-blizzard has actual statistics about this topic, but a vocal group should not be interpreted as a majority of the playerbase.

[epigramx]

less than 80k average viewers

Before being sarcastic against people (again), at least try to form an argument that's not a fallacy.
Most of us never watch streams of other guilds but we always care about the ranks.

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I cant say i ever encountered such PVE raiding players

Even the nicest people I've ever met in this game do it. They never speak about it of course if their guild fails but once they down a boss after a lot of hard work: they celebrate if they notice their guild raises rank in their realm.

It's perfectly natural too; it helps them in practical ways too; they can recruit more easily now.

[Accendor]

That's a fallacy, because nobody cares if you got +999 if everyone else gets it easily.
You ONLY care that you did something hard compared to other people.

No, not really. I care about beating hard content, not about beating other people.
Making the logical jump from "I like to beat hard content" to "... because other people can't do it", is something that exist solemnly in your mindset - not in mine.

[epigramx]

No, not really. I care about beating hard content, not about beating other people.
Making the logical jump from "I like to beat hard content" to "... because other people can't do it", is something that exist solemnly in your mindset - not in mine.

The burden of proof is on you, because the most natural thing in the world is to feel an improved person after doing something hard,
and the uncommon thing is for those feelings of improvement to be unaffected by the level of improvement of others.

[Accendor]

The burden of proof is on you, because the most natural thing in the world is to feel an improved person after doing something hard,
and the uncommon thing is for those feelings of improvement to be unaffected by the level of improvement of others.

... and the burden of proof for that is on you. You are not turning the burden of proof around, simply by stating it.

... but after checking your other answers in this thread it became pretty clear that you are just trolling at this point anyway, so I'll see myself out ;-)

[epigramx]

... and the burden of proof for that is on you.

To make it clearer: the burden of proof goes to those who make the extraordinary (rare/uncommon) claim. When you were younger and achieved something in an outdoor game, did you not care if others did the same thing better?