If the devs admit that PvP sucks with grinding for gear: why is PvE different?

[Aleksej89]

To make it clearer: the burden of proof goes to those who make the extraordinary (rare/uncommon) claim. When you were younger and achieved something in an outdoor game, did you not care if others did the same thing better?

This may strike you as odd but not all people are the same.
I personally never gave a damn how well others did.
I take a look at statistics to get a feel of where I am in the playerbase, so that i better understand my current skill level and likely fields for improvement.
But all of that is in the context of "how do i improve myself" and expand my knowledge, assuming i care about improving in that particular field.

But competing with others for the sake of competition, measuring up, doing FOTM rerolls or gathering something just because its rare?
Could not care less... i dont need validation to enjoy something, and i especially do not look for validation in games.
If i have something i do not care how many other people have it - i simply do not care that those other people even exist.

People who are competition-oriented could never understand how someone could simply not give a f*ck about their ranking, their epeen, the measuring contest or w/e.
Apples to oranges...

[epigramx]

This may strike you as odd but not all people are the same.
I personally never gave a damn how well others did.
I take a look at statistics to get a feel of where I am in the playerbase, so that i better understand my current skill level and likely fields for improvement.
But all of that is in the context of "how do i improve myself" and expand my knowledge, assuming i care about improving in that particular field.

But competing with others for the sake of competition, measuring up, doing FOTM rerolls or gathering something just because its rare?
Could not care less... i dont need validation to enjoy something, and i especially do not look for validation in games.
If i have something i do not care how many other people have it - i simply do not care that those other people even exist.

People who are competition-oriented could never understand how someone could simply not give a f*ck about their ranking, their epeen, the measuring contest or w/e.
Apples to oranges...

You only told us you personally didn't feel bad when you compared to other people (possibly because you were rarely worse than them in ability). You still compare to other people as you described (and you see specific benefits at doing so).
I'm arguing with people who claim they never compare at all (which is pretty uncommon and unbelievable the majority would be that way).

[Lathspell]

You only told us you personally didn't feel bad when you compared to other people (possibly because you were rarely worse than them in ability). You still compare to other people as you described (and you see specific benefits at doing so).
I'm arguing with people who claim they never compare at all (which is pretty uncommon and unbelievable the majority would be that way).

Do you really think an average guild that just raids heroic or even normal even knows their world rank let alone cares about it? Rising from world 50k to world 49,999 is hardly cause for celebration. Removing gear from PVE would remove most of the incentive to even play the game, which is to gear up your character. In PVP it's different, because you directly compete against others, and being at a disadvantage means you lose much more often.

[epigramx]

Do you really think an average guild that just raids heroic or even normal even knows their world rank let alone cares about it? Rising from world 50k to world 49,999 is hardly cause for celebration. Removing gear from PVE would remove most of the incentive to even play the game, which is to gear up your character. In PVP it's different, because you directly compete against others, and being at a disadvantage means you lose much more often.

I've been in many casual raiding guilds. They can claim they don't care all they want; they still like to realm-rank better once they kill something hard (for them) and it's not "just selfishness" either because it helps them at recruitment; also inside-the-guild competition on meters (or other gameplay ability) is extremely common.

Also: if you hate the gameplay of PvE if it doesn't have grinding for gear: why do you play?

[Thunderball]

I think you're just pretending to be dumb. The biggest point of PvE is gear progression: if you can access the best gear right away you will either faceroll any content that doesnt scale (so all of PvE outside of M+) or if the content is tuned for the best gear you just instantly make any gear obsolete. Obviously devs dont want either of those.

Add: oh yeah there's actually a way to make PvE not be affected by gear that much: make it about instawipe mechanics. But for some reason most people dont enjoy them very much, probably because they cant actually perform those mechanics consistently.

[epigramx]

The biggest point of PvE is gear progression

Why? That's just a mantra that was never proven. If you hate the PvE gameplay that much if you didn't grind for its gear: why would you even play?

[Thunderball]

Why? That's just a mantra that was never proven. If you hate the PvE gameplay that much if you didn't grind for its gear: why would you even play?

I love hard PvE content, but I also recognize that it would be extremely unpopular if there was no other option and no reward.

[Squigglyo]

Science fiction. I've been in multiple casual raiding guilds and they ALWAYS LOVE IT if they raise rank after they down a boss; why wouldn't they; all humans love feeling better compared to others.

The vast majority of 'casual' guilds care about killing bosses and getting loot. They couldnt give a hoot about any other guild.
Any casual guild that even knows what its rank is... isnt a casual guild.

Ive been in normal guilds, heroic guilds and mythic guilds, all of which had no interest in ranks. Never mentioned once.

Easily flipped argument: if you hate the PvP gameplay on its own: why would you even play?

...you wouldnt?

[Archy]

PvE in practice is still people competing with other people; even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they beat in realm-ranking other guilds which is explicitly them VS other people in other guilds; even inside the same guild people compete with each other about who is best.

It goes without saying that PvP is just the same with even fewer steps; why is PvE suddenly so much different; it appears the main reason they gate min-maxing for end-game is to prolong subscription money because there is absolutely no sense if "PvP sucks to grind" but PvE not.

It is a grind in both content forms, it's just a deterministic grind in PvP. I don't know which dev or blue post you're referring to, but I'm guessing it's about the Shadowlands PvP gear grind. It just took way too long.

The main reason why gearing in PvP is different is that your "encounter" is also gearing. The combat itself feels worse if you're playing against someone massively overgeared. That's not the case in PvE. You have to use third party software and compare AFTER the fight to even get a feeling how well you're doing compared to other players (that are not in your raid).

You also have to consider the role of gear in PvE and PvP. In PvE combat gets easier as you get more gear, so the raid basically gets nerfed every reset. Getting full PvP gear doesn't make anything easier, it just allows people to compete on an even playing field. So getting full PvP gear is rather the start of competitive PvP whereas getting full BiS gear is the end of the gameplay for PvE'rs.

Also only a few guilds actually care about their ranking, but I know that you're just going to ignore this argument.

[epigramx]

I love hard PvE content, but I also recognize that it would be extremely unpopular if there was no other option and no reward.

I don't, because I've never seen it tried and I only hear about it. Even if it drops some players in the short term who only care about loot: it may gain long-term players that hate grinding for no reason other than sub prolongation.

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The vast majority of 'casual' guilds care about killing bosses and getting loot. They couldnt give a hoot about any other guild.

That'd make them bad at their strategy of even getting loot, because if they raise rank: it's easy for them to recruit better players.
It is why even casual guilds like to see their rank high (it's not just 'selfishness' or something).

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...you wouldnt?

So if you wouldn't play PvP if you don't like it's gameplay, why would you play PvE, just because you get loot and don't like PvE gameplay itself?

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gearing in PvP is different is that your "encounter" is also gearing.

only a few guilds actually care about their ranking, but I know that you're just going to ignore this

It's the same in PvE with extra steps, because your achievements in it are always relative to other people (even inside your own group) and those people may gear more than you and don't allow a level playground before you equalize gear.

Even casual guilds care about their ranking because it's the smart thing to do because it helps their recruitment (PS I don't ignore any argument here because I care about the truth and not to "win" with ignorance).

[Cracked]

Why? That's just a mantra that was never proven. If you hate the PvE gameplay that much if you didn't grind for its gear: why would you even play?

Because that's the whole point of the game? From the moment you log in as a level 1 naked character?

[epigramx]

Because that's the whole point of the game? From the moment you log in as a level 1 naked character?

It's absolutely not the point of the game. Pet battles could have an obscene amount of grind to get an entry to them; I wouldn't see you playing them more than PvE.
You play PvE because you like the gameplay (not because you grind for loot).

[Archy]

It's the same in PvE with extra steps, because your achievements in it are always relative to other people (even inside your own group) and those people may gear more than you and don't allow a level playground before you equalize gear.

Even casual guilds care about their ranking because it's the smart thing to do because it helps their recruitment (PS I don't ignore any argument here because I care about the truth and not to "win" with ignorance).

The extra steps are very important though. Comparing yourself with others isn't a part of the gameplay as it is in PvP. It's done after the fact. Doesn't influence actual combat at all.

Yeah it would help out casual guilds with recruitment a ton. Witthout the totally unfair RNG, they would be rank 12,378 and not only 12,401. The flood gates for better players would be open.

In all seriousness, things like dynamic raid sizes and raid compositions (class related) outweigh RNG by far. "Fixing" RNG would do nothing to make things more balanced.

[epigramx]

isn't a part of the gameplay as it is in PvP. It's done after the fact. Doesn't influence actual combat at all.

That's still same with "extra steps". In PvP you will wipe immediately if you're undergeared (with higher probability). In PvE you will wipe immediately when you're undergeared (with higher probability).

[Mojo03]

When did they admit it? Just wondering. It's clear as day to me, but they usually give bullshit answers from what I've seen.

It's atrocious that there is gear level differences in PVP and always has been. It's very clearly a way to waste peoples time and reward people willing to waste the time to grind the gear every season.

PVE is a bit different, in that I see gear ilvl as just a ticket to do content assigned for that gear lvl. And you continue to push it to see how far you can get. Does it also waste your time? 100%.

Where it's different is that there "should" be power progression in PVE, which shouldn't be the case in balanced PVP.

[Archy]

That's still same with "extra steps". In PvP you will wipe immediately if you're undergeared (with higher probability). In PvE you will wipe immediately when you're undergeared (with higher probability).

You'll also wipe if you're a lvl 10 in a lvl 50 area. Questing and high end lvl PvP/PvE are the same! What point are you even trying to make here?

Obviously playing against your opponent and playing a game and comparing afterwards are two very different scenarios. You can get all rewards from PvE without ever comparing yourself with others. You can't do that in PvP because it's literally the whole point of it. Everything is based on how well you do compared to others. It isn't in PvE. That's just something you decide to add after the fact.

The role of gear in PvE is to reduce the difficulty of the encounter. "Grinding" it is a way to gradually reduce it instead of being just hit with a hard "skill wall" you can't climb. In competitive PvP gear has no role. That's the reason why it is so despised to grind it out.

[Lathspell]

It's the same in PvE with extra steps, because your achievements in it are always relative to other people (even inside your own group) and those people may gear more than you and don't allow a level playground before you equalize gear.

The difference is that in PVE the other people in your group are working with you against the encounter, so even if they have better gear it only helps the whole group. If I get some 311 gigablaster in my M+ Key or Raid I don't feel bad that I can't compete with them, I'm happy that it makes the key easier for everyone.

[epigramx]

PVE is a bit different, in that I see gear ilvl as just a ticket to do content assigned for that gear lvl. And you continue to push it to see how far you can get.

It's the same under a layer of artificial extra steps. The true purpose of PvE players is to feel more powerful than other players at actually playing PvE.

Anyone that truly enjoys the highest levels of PvE knows their highest enjoyment is actually playing PvE and doing it well and efficiently.

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playing against your opponent and playing a game and comparing afterwards are two very different scenarios

Just a minor delay of time to check. The true purpose under the hood was to see who is better.
Inside-the-guild competition doesn't even have that delay since they immediately compare.

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in PVE the other people in your group are working with you

It's still competitive in reality. The DPSes are in constant competition for example and it's very similar with the healers and occasionally with the tanks.
And if they don't feel that way initially: the raid leader will help them see it that way (because it helps the guild performance to see the truth).

[Squigglyo]

That'd make them bad at their strategy of even getting loot, because if they raise rank: it's easy for them to recruit better players.
It is why even casual guilds like to see their rank high (it's not just 'selfishness' or something).

You are so detached from reality that its just getting sad at this point.

[Archy]

Just a minor delay of time to check. The true purpose under the hood was to see who is better.
Inside-the-guild competition doesn't even have that delay since they immediately compare.

No. The purpose was defeating the boss. Now it's not about guild ranks and team effort, now you're in the stupid region of competitive parsing.
You can only compare yourself to the same exact spec. The other guy is maybe doing a boss mechanic and you are blowing your cooldowns at the wrong time just because you can get more dps in the add phase. Are you better now? Maybe the guild even helps you with stupid strategies so you can get more dps. Do you feel that's a good competition to have?

You're even thinking that healers are in constant competition over numbers? It's all about raid cooldowns in HPS and you don't choose where to use them, your raidleader does. You get assigned a lower dmg phase than the other guy? Or you can press your cooldown twice and he only once? You won beforehand. What a thrilling competition.