Tank power in DF M+

[Lochton]

You shouldn't really base anything on stats and balancing in legion, and wait for the balancing patch in BFA

You shouldn't really base anything on stats and balancing in BFA, and wait for the balancing patch in SL

you always have someone assuming blizz will fix what is broken in alpha, beta, and PTR in first weeks, months, first major patch, etc

Eh, yes, and no, except, numbers are almost 90% off in the pre-patch period. Pre-patch season is the last moment you need to run by the numbers, just like at launch of an expansion, instead you need to report in if it seems off, so it can be balanced.

[pinkz]

well we are past PTR and now in prepatch., so i suspect some will say "we are in prepatch" and when game goes live "its the start of expac" and will continue just like expacs before making excuses for blizzard. same that praised blizzard for pulling a ripcord in SL over 1 year too late

i did Korrack AV last year and dpomg alot of them now in 2022. tanks are insane. seeing the top ten healers at the end of a fast KAV with a tank #1 healer with more healing than 3 of the top healers combined. of the top ten healers only 4 were healers. rest are tanks and some DPS specs which imo that should not be happening.

now some will say that's PVP, the KAV BG is PVE and PVP. it is also known blizzard does not balance predominately for PVP. a prime example is arena solo shuffle. prot paladin are seriously imbalancing the system, sure otherblem tank by now are too, rather than adjust, fis, nerf the problem, blizzard announces they are going to que prot pals as healers. whats next havoc DH qued as tanks? Hpal qued as DPS.

[sponge5307]

I think its bit over tuned at the moment but they are making a complete design shift regarding tanks. Making us a lot more self sustainable and less healer dependant while making the tank roll easier overall. They have gone on record saying tank and to some extent healer roles have way to much responseability compared to other roles, have to know each mobs/packs, what routes to take and so on, i'm sure all of you know the burden that comes with tanks.

And they want to remove that and their way seems to make tanking as a whole A LOT easier so the extra burden evens out the role overall.
They have also increased the skill ceiling quite heavily which means someone like myself, who has tanked for almost 20 years straight? We appear to be overpowered as fuck... The average player? Not so much.

I can't answer how this will turn out in the end... I would rather have seen the mechanical aspects of m+, such as routing being less of a thing or just outright removing the seasonal affix on tanks (Which they've lessen the burden, we do get it but we get it less than half the time compared to dps).

All in all though? I'm hyped beyond belief and been loving beta for the past months. Can't recall an expansion i've been this excited for except cataclysm.
Maybe it's getting beta first time but I like a lot about DF. zones are amazing, talent trees are amazing (if you play the right spec ), dragon riding is beyond amazing, raids look solid as always and so on

With all that said, except bear tanks, everyone look super solid and and there's no real OP winner atm. People think its pwarr but it's not, not even close.

- - - Updated - - -



None of that actually matters until you reach the very top 1% of highest keys being done. Its just a community perception that holds no ground. All tanks are viable up to the highest level, just not the last 0.1% cutoff title viable.

Nah playing a bear tank in DF we are OP even if you don't play well. LoS pulls pop CD. I think I only wipe once in Brackenhide Hollow. Hate that place. Too many mobs with fears and the unavoidable AoE attack if you are fear into it. Then you use your interupt once and no one else does it so you are fear into another mob and another and another.

[Relapses]

Nah playing a bear tank in DF we are OP even if you don't play well. LoS pulls pop CD. I think I only wipe once in Brackenhide Hollow. Hate that place. Too many mobs with fears and the unavoidable AoE attack if you are fear into it. Then you use your interupt once and no one else does it so you are fear into another mob and another and another.

Important to note the guy you quoted made that assessment prior to the 50% damage buff Bear received shortly before DF launch. This was the largest aura buff any single spec has ever received and the fact that they received this and are still just-about-even with other tanks shows how unrelentingly awful this spec was for almost all of DF Alpha/Beta.

[Loveliest]

Sigh... what M+. Season has not even started. Push keys to the level where tank needs healing. Jesus, SL kiting tank at the start was a miserable experience but here we are whining bearly a week in the expansion.

[sponge5307]

Sigh... what M+. Season has not even started. Push keys to the level where tank needs healing. Jesus, SL kiting tank at the start was a miserable experience but here we are whining bearly a week in the expansion.

Doesn't matter stuff like this should not have happened
https://youtu.be/z3QImwiDg7g

I still remember at the start of SL no tanks can do this, not even in normal dungeons. So tanks are way too OP this time around. Blizzard need to do something about it. Maybe neft of active and passive def, nerf to self healing.

[Subrias]

From Tank streams, it seems even with downscaled ilevel (where dps and heals are often one shot due to how low their ilvl is compared to mobs), most tanks barely need healer intervention and at times even outheal the damage they take.

If this isn't a tuning issue, which i don't think it is seeing as prepatch is live by now, I'm curious about the design goals.

Its very fun to mitigate damage as tanks, but i thought the mitigation levels we had in most of Legion, BFA and SL were great. You had cds and active mitigation to feel like a king during very high damage, but you still needed some healer attention, and at times a lot of it.

The only exceptions are DKs who dominate current m+ meta by being nigh invincible and almost entirely self sustaining. I hope blizzard's solution wasn't to turn everyone into DK levels. This leaves tanks with much less risk, and leaves healers rather bored as they only get to heal the party rather than use strong single target kit.

Spells like Druid's Lifebloom and Shaman's Earth Shield, for example, become much less satisfying when there isn't a target taking big and sustained damage. It'd be a shame if that's the case, and i wonder what the community feels about it.

They probably just feel threatened by ffxiv and want healers to do more damage and therefore have yo focus on the tanks less. In ffxiv healers usually do damage a good amount of the time and just keep everyone up with instant heals and whatnot.

[Tech614]

I still remember at the start of SL no tanks can do this

Ah yes cause the kite meta of early shadowlands M+ was so fun. /s

Shadowlands first season is the least powerful tanks have ever been, it was bad and you should feel bad for thinking that was good game design. If you think current tanks in DF are OP you definitely didn't play MoP because tanks will never be as powerful as MoP again. DF is not even close to out of place like MoP was.

[ONCHEhap]

Ah yes cause the kite meta of early shadowlands M+ was so fun. /s

Shadowlands first season is the least powerful tanks have ever been, it was bad and you should feel bad for thinking that was good game design. If you think current tanks in DF are OP you definitely didn't play MoP because tanks will never be as powerful as MoP again. DF is not even close to out of place like MoP was.

Yeah, We're still quite a ways away from 250% mastery blood DKs being top DPS while no boss could ever break their blood shield lmao

[sponge5307]

Ah yes cause the kite meta of early shadowlands M+ was so fun. /s

Shadowlands first season is the least powerful tanks have ever been, it was bad and you should feel bad for thinking that was good game design. If you think current tanks in DF are OP you definitely didn't play MoP because tanks will never be as powerful as MoP again. DF is not even close to out of place like MoP was.

You still made no comment on the video I posted literally Asmongold is soloing the boss all alone no dps and no heals and didn't die. My bear druid is not gear well even then I was doing w2w pull and I didn't use my major def CD at all. Tanks should be this powerful.

[MatthewOU2015]

prot warriors hardly need heals Unless they get another nerf prot will be OP season 1. No heals needed

[Tech614]

You still made no comment on the video I posted literally Asmongold is soloing the boss all alone no dps and no heals and didn't die. My bear druid is not gear well even then I was doing w2w pull and I didn't use my major def CD at all. Tanks should be this powerful.

Tanks soloing stuff in easy content is hardly new or exclusive to dragonflight I hate to break it to you. Even in lame ass Shadowlands season 1 VDH could do the same in mythic 0s so your video means nothing to me or anyone. You made the mistake of thinking the game was tuned around mythic 0 when in reality if tanks had any remote danger in mythic 0s at all the tuning would be absolutely trash for tanking actual difficult content.

Kiting isn't fun to play as a tank, isn't fun to play as a dps, isn't even fun to play as a healer. Literally nobody important wants Shadowlands season 1 tuning for tanks. Sorry to break it to you. You somehow want it even worse than that since you expect tanks to be in danger tanking Mythic 0s lol.

[iperson]

You still made no comment on the video I posted literally Asmongold is soloing the boss all alone no dps and no heals and didn't die. My bear druid is not gear well even then I was doing w2w pull and I didn't use my major def CD at all. Tanks should be this powerful.

Post back when you have a timed +20. M0 is easily outgeared already by anyone who’s tried even a little. Asmon literally had a raid feeding him drops from bugged rares that were dropping raid level gear.

[tomten]

Doesn't matter stuff like this should not have happened
https://youtu.be/z3QImwiDg7g

I still remember at the start of SL no tanks can do this, not even in normal dungeons. So tanks are way too OP this time around. Blizzard need to do something about it. Maybe neft of active and passive def, nerf to self healing.

Funny thing he sucks at it. I do triple his dps in that pull while he complains "pwarr does so low dps" xD
Tanks are not OP.. Tanks are tanks again. And DPS have to stop standing in shit. That's why they die. Avoidable high damage.
You also have a shift in tanking where they're making it far far easier including healers. To make more people want to play it.
This is them solving the tank/healer shortage. You should be happy, not complain.
And if you get outdps'ed by a tank? You either have very low ilvl vs him or you're just bad. The good dps i've played with double or triple my dps every pack. So its not tanks doing high dps either...
And if you die as dps? Stop taking avoidable damage.

[erifwodahs]

You can tell that most people don't know how tanks work and how they respond to different amounts of mob damage. There will be outliers, ofc, but judging tanks on ton of small incoming hits is like judging safety of a car on amount of bugs smashing into it. Maybe wait for an actual crash test?

Trust me, you don't want a season where tank is a bottle neck - dps won't have fun, tanks won't have fun and healers will get heart attack by healing tanks going 100 to 10 to 100 to dead based on timing of some mob abilities.

[Nymrohd]

As a prot paladin, I'd say my dps is relatively low compared to the past few expansions; with better dps I usually did about 60% of their damage. Cannot really judge how good we are defensively because after the first dungeon I did (in which I DID die to one boss but that's cause I did not see an AoE that was obscured inside its hitbox) I pretty much outgeared the content. The trash seems very busy though and at high keys and the wrong affixes they will be very deadly.

[ifrah]

I certainly want the SL S1 kite dogshit back, spiced up with the BDK 200dps from any pre-tier set times. Sure as hell want that again.
Don't worry, once the season is under way, tanks can die in high enough keys, as will they be well out-dps'd by actual dps classes. Besides, when was m0/equivalent needing any attention from literally any player in the first place?
I'm not saying things are going to be as balanced as they ever can be straight off the bat in any key between +1 and +30, but honestly, who the hell wants tanks, or healers to boot, be their vanilla or so equivalents where they do barely auto attack damage, or need to soak heals like there's good ol' hateful strikes coming down on your face?

[sponge5307]

Tanks soloing stuff in easy content is hardly new or exclusive to dragonflight I hate to break it to you. Even in lame ass Shadowlands season 1 VDH could do the same in mythic 0s so your video means nothing to me or anyone. You made the mistake of thinking the game was tuned around mythic 0 when in reality if tanks had any remote danger in mythic 0s at all the tuning would be absolutely trash for tanking actual difficult content.

Kiting isn't fun to play as a tank, isn't fun to play as a dps, isn't even fun to play as a healer. Literally nobody important wants Shadowlands season 1 tuning for tanks. Sorry to break it to you. You somehow want it even worse than that since you expect tanks to be in danger tanking Mythic 0s lol.

Post back when you have a timed +20. M0 is easily outgeared already by anyone who’s tried even a little. Asmon literally had a raid feeding him drops from bugged rares that were dropping raid level gear.

Funny thing he sucks at it. I do triple his dps in that pull while he complains "pwarr does so low dps" xD
Tanks are not OP.. Tanks are tanks again. And DPS have to stop standing in shit. That's why they die. Avoidable high damage.
You also have a shift in tanking where they're making it far far easier including healers. To make more people want to play it.
This is them solving the tank/healer shortage. You should be happy, not complain.
And if you get outdps'ed by a tank? You either have very low ilvl vs him or you're just bad. The good dps i've played with double or triple my dps every pack. So its not tanks doing high dps either...
And if you die as dps? Stop taking avoidable damage.

Look I play a tank in BC and in WoLK AND in Cata and also legion. And no there was not a time right at the start of an expansion that a tank can literally tank a bunch of dungeon mobs with no heels and survive. You just can't. Heck even with the decent gear you still need your heels on some of the mobs. So don't tell me people are doing triple pulls right at the start of an expansion coz it didn't happen. Tanks not dying now is a big issue. you are going to run into issue (well is already happening) tanks just keeps pulling and pulling and dps and heals don't have any chance to catch up. Yea it will be fun alright at +20 when no one learn a god damm thing about a dungeon or what to interrupt since everyone is just trying to catch to the tanks who never slow down.

Making tanks op is not the answer to get them to play. It creates toxic environment for both dps and healers since they have nothing to do but just catches up the tank. They aren't playing the game. Not to mention it creates tanks who thinks too highly of themselves and become the person that's the toxic one in the group. People don't tank in the first place is because of the responsibility it came with and the group expected them to know every route, which mob to kill, which mob to interrupt and if someone is even a bit too slow they call out for.

You solve the tank issue by making sure that toxic environment is gone when a new player wants to try tanking or when a tank make a mistake no one is leashing or harassing them. You start giving out warnings or even banning people who are just toxic in chat to people who wanted to learn to tank. You start moving some of that responsibility away from tanks to other roles. Making them way too OP isn't the answer.

[erifwodahs]

Look I play a tank in BC and in WoLK AND in Cata and also legion. And no there was not a time right at the start of an expansion that a tank can literally tank a bunch of dungeon mobs with no heels and survive. You just can't.

Quite a strong opinion here about something you clearly don't do.

You tanking doesn't mean you were any good at it, trust me, comparing tbc, wotlk and cata tanks to current tanks is meaningless in the first place because it's a different game and different kits.

You clearly have no clue how tanks actually work either if you think that m0 has any reflection on how keys will run or how damage mitigation works currently.

I would love to see how DPS can't catch up to a Paladin or BDK, are they RP walking? You probably start blasting CDs as soon as tank starts pulling, not even thinking that it's just half a pull and there will be LoS to join them with one or two other packs - your fault at, nothing do with tanks "just going".

Like, no offense mate, but coming in with your ideas and talking about how to fix something where you have no competence in is cringe. "creates toxic environment for dps and healers" - lol what? I have yet to see a dps say "hey pull less, I don't like blasting" and you clearly haven't read the tooltips of mechanics if you think healers won't have anything to heal in upcoming dungeons. Maybe look it up, because you will end up dead every other pull without knowing how and blame others for it when you go into a m+

[jeezusisacasual]

Since i do not want to conform to a Meta pick i am going to raid as a Windwalker and pug my own keys as a Brewmaster with the opening mythic dungeons have been very solid and fun honestly. As a bewmaster i have felt weaker then in previous seasons but that is sort of to be expected in the expansions opening season with more output needed from the healer which there are a few things i could change or improve upon to make that a bit better also. Plus the dungeons are all fairly new and once figured out in a month from now we will see threads talking about how easy everything is.