"new talents" are just conduits and former baseline abilities.

[Triceron]

And yeah they really did break a lot of classes in the name of a "new" talent system.
But hey if youre okay with it, thats fine by me!
Keep on chugging the copium.

It's also copium to think that classes wouldn't break if they didn't add a new talent system either.

Classes break EVERY expansion no matter what they change or keep the same. This complaint is completely bonkers to think that the classes wouldn't be complained about every time a new expansion rolls around.

[Donald Hellscream]

Yes, and its way better than the talent system we've had for several expansions now, moreover it does allows specs to have abilities that they previously couldn't, because they belonged in a different spec tree, like empower rune weapon as blood, where it was previously a frost dk cd exclusively.

[Al Gorefiend]

Priests get both feathers and body n soul. We are now like the zoomiest class in the game its wonderful

[Imnotadentist]

It's also copium to think that classes wouldn't break if they didn't add a new talent system either.

Classes break EVERY expansion no matter what they change or keep the same. This complaint is completely bonkers to think that the classes wouldn't be complained about every time a new expansion rolls around.

Its copium to think blizzard wouldnt break their own game...
aight.. and no they do not. BFA to Shadowlands, nothing was really taken other than 1 ability and some passives, and we got passives and abilities in their place.
So hate to say you are 100% wrong, but you are 100% wrong.

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Yes, and its way better than the talent system we've had for several expansions now, moreover it does allows specs to have abilities that they previously couldn't, because they belonged in a different spec tree, like empower rune weapon as blood, where it was previously a frost dk cd exclusively.

I agree that it allows some abilites to be taken in tandem with previous others that couldnt,BUT there are massive negatives to that as well.
For example (hate using my shammy as a reference for everything now but hey) Resto has to talent into chain fricken lightning now, and theyve also lost quite a few abilites that aren't even on the talent tree anymore.
I do not think Blizzard, who couldnt balance a 7 row talent system has ANY hope of balancing out this new talent system.
But hey if you like it thats cool too!
I for one am not a huge fan of these changes.

[FelPlague]

Resto shammies lost Earth elemental, cloudburst totem, and wellspring.
That is a LOT of hps down the drain AND their usefulness in M+ will go down considerably

No they didnt.



if you gunna cry about something, maybe spend all of 2 seconds going to the talent tree and typing the abilities in the search bar?
All 3 of those abilities still exist, with earth elemental literally the VERY FIRST POINT in the restoration focused section of the class tree, and wellspring and cloudburst both on the same side of the resto tree.

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So hate to say you are 100% wrong, but you are 100% wrong.

Cause mate, the only one who has been 100% wrong here is you.

[Ielenia]

this expansion is low budget in every way:
1- new ugly race using human and belf assets
2- new talent tree is basically gathering legendary , sets , etc from the past
3- worst cinematic ever made (stone guy pov)
4- uninspiring login screen
5- new class with worst gameplay possible
6- the only new feature is copy paste form gw2 and will be forgotten when flying unlocked.
7- 4 new m+ dung at start and using dungs from the past

It's fine if you don't like the expansion, there's plenty of reasons to not like it, but...

To say it's "low budget" while citing reasons that have zero to do with actual quality and all boil down to "I don't like it" opinions is just wrong, at best.

[Triceron]

So hate to say you are 100% wrong, but you are 100% wrong.

Sorry, but no one here would ever agree with what you're saying here lol.

Like, has anyone actually agreed with you on anything so far? It seems this entire thread is a 'tell Imnotadentist his idea and opinions are completely ridiculous' thread.

[bloodmoth13]

I suppose you're right. More interesting interactions would be neater, but at the same time it gets really incredibly stale when some classes haven't essentially changed from how they have been playing for 2-3 expansions. Sometimes, in moments like that, a new ability of sorts is needed.

Not talking about adding 3 new abilities per expansion or anything, but what I meant to say was like between vanilla, tbc, and wrath they really changed how the classes played - it felt new each time.

I think the feeling of newness is my hope for the trees going forward as right now some don't give a feeling of newness it's just the past 3 expansions outlaid into talents. Which is fine as I said it's a good foundation, just hope classes don't feel stale again going forward.

If there are players who enjoy the current playstyles then it's on Blizzard to ensure they maintain that while adding new playstyle options to those who want something new from their spec/class.

Newness (novelty) isnt entirely sustainable either. If blizz makes a very well designed spec it shouldnt be changed for the sake of change. There are good optional talents that allow players to preserve what is good and try something novel.

Bringing shadow priest back into the discussion, in legion they were given the insanity mechanic that took them from a dot spec into this frantic burst mode spec that completely changed how they played. It was new but a lot of players understandably hated it. They changed it to a 1.5min CD which players still didnt like because it changed how the spec flowed.
Now they made it optional but added in a bunch of other things that arent optional and the spec has become this bloated mess where you have a bunch of incredibly niche keybinds that should be core abilities whose functionality has been usurped by new skills that mostly replace the skills but dont entirely.

Its nice playing with new tools and i think each spec has a bunch, you cant realistically expect blizz to add in 50 new skills across 34 specs its just too much, shuffling old things around is the best way to introduce a new system, take familiar things and rebuild it into the new system. If every talent was something new it would be overwhelming and disconnect players from their specs, it would be incredibly difficult to get a feel for your spec.

Reusing things is a great way to introduce a new system, in the future they stated they want to be able to add new things to classes which is a good direction.

There will be some growing pains though, shadow priest is my go to for this, they added a lot of things but didnt quite get the design right for release, a lot of specs will be like that while some specs will feel like the designers got it right.

[FelPlague]

Not talking about adding 3 new abilities per expansion or anything, but what I meant to say was like between vanilla, tbc, and wrath they really changed how the classes played - it felt new each time.

???? Talent trees from vanilal to tbc to wotlk were literally almost the exact same with just new stuff added to the bottom.

Like literally the whole point of back then was the trees stayed mostly the same, with new stuff added to the bottom, and a COUPLE alterations.

[FlubberPuddy]

Newness (novelty) isnt entirely sustainable either. If blizz makes a very well designed spec it shouldnt be changed for the sake of change. There are good optional talents that allow players to preserve what is good and try something novel.

I already stated that they should allow new playstyles to emerge while keeping the same gameplay for those that enjoy it (I am imagining say wider tree roots the further down they expand - affording newer playstyles or enhancing the favorites). I already agreed that they can't simply keep adding on like they did in the past.

I think it's a bit faulty to use Shadowpriest as an example as that's the most extreme example of how all over the place a spec can be, but SP is not what the vast majority of trees look like with this newest iteration.

It would be like me using Ret's tree which didn't change it's gameplay that it's had since Legion at all, as an example for every single classes' talent trees, when that's quickly not true if one looks at say Fury Warrior, Assassin Rogue, Arcane Mage, etc.

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???? Talent trees from vanilal to tbc to wotlk were literally almost the exact same with just new stuff added to the bottom.

Like literally the whole point of back then was the trees stayed mostly the same, with new stuff added to the bottom, and a COUPLE alterations.

I mean maybe Warlock played the same exact way or something, but if you take the Paladin trees for example you will notice a lot of changes between expansions that also changed the way each spec played as well and within the trees themselves they had added new talents that had new interactions with abilities or consolidated talents together or even completely merged talents into something new that had a bit of both.

Like I told bloodmoth13, it's faulty to pick one example and act as if that fits every single one. It would be like me using the Ret Paladin tree in DF as an example of how nothing changed in terms of gameplay or there's barely any meaningful new interactions between the talents that didn't come with a loss. But that isn't true for the vast majority of trees in DF and so I don't go around saying that.

My point was, at this new baseline, I hope they don't take away anymore to where the gameplay just feels the same and it doesn't feel like the spec itself is actually gaining anything new - without having to pick and choose.

An easier example would be Artifact Weapons with their own tree that gave us interesting new abilities or interesting new interactions of abilities, we were able to have it all. Then come BFA most of it was taken away, scarce few were made baseline, and a lot of it was made into a talent where now you had to choose what you wanted when before you had access to all of it.

That doesn't feel great.

But if this is their new baseline then I can understand the growing pains as long as going forward it feels like we actually gain things, whether it's passively - not always a new button to press - or new types of interactions between abilities that we have.

Other examples to think of now: Not every class that previously could remove curse/poison will always have it. Not every Paladin will have access to Devo Aura (as it's not a required ability that is chosen for all specs).

Those are a few more perception changes that the playerbase will have to work around, but again it will just be a period of adapting to those changes.

[FelPlague]

I already stated that they should allow new playstyles to emerge while keeping the same gameplay for those that enjoy it (I am imagining say wider tree roots the further down they expand - affording newer playstyles or enhancing the favorites). I already agreed that they can't simply keep adding on like they did in the past.

I think it's a bit faulty to use Shadowpriest as an example as that's the most extreme example of how all over the place a spec can be, but SP is not what the vast majority of trees look like with this newest iteration.

It would be like me using Ret's tree which didn't change it's gameplay that it's had since Legion at all, as an example for every single classes' talent trees, when that's quickly not true if one looks at say Fury Warrior, Assassin Rogue, Arcane Mage, etc.

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I mean maybe Warlock played the same exact way or something, but if you take the Paladin trees for example you will notice a lot of changes between expansions that also changed the way each spec played as well and within the trees themselves they had added new talents that had new interactions with abilities or consolidated talents together or even completely merged talents into something new that had a bit of both.

Like I told bloodmoth13, it's faulty to pick one example and act as if that fits every single one. It would be like me using the Ret Paladin tree in DF as an example of how nothing changed in terms of gameplay or there's barely any meaningful new interactions between the talents that didn't come with a loss. But that isn't true for the vast majority of trees in DF and so I don't go around saying that.

My point was, at this new baseline, I hope they don't take away anymore to where the gameplay just feels the same and it doesn't feel like the spec itself is actually gaining anything new - without having to pick and choose.

An easier example would be Artifact Weapons with their own tree that gave us interesting new abilities or interesting new interactions of abilities, we were able to have it all. Then come BFA most of it was taken away, scarce few were made baseline, and a lot of it was made into a talent where now you had to choose what you wanted when before you had access to all of it.

That doesn't feel great.

But if this is their new baseline then I can understand the growing pains as long as going forward it feels like we actually gain things, whether it's passively - not always a new button to press - or new types of interactions between abilities that we have.

Other examples to think of now: Not every class that previously could remove curse/poison will always have it. Not every Paladin will have access to Devo Aura (as it's not a required ability that is chosen for all specs).

Those are a few more perception changes that the playerbase will have to work around, but again it will just be a period of adapting to those changes.

I used warlock cause its what i know
and paladin only got changed cause it was literally deemed broken from the start, they purposfully broke it for hybrid tax and took a fair while to fix it, and arnt you also doing the same by just using the paladin as example?

Every class has had their expacs were nothing changes, and others where everything changes, every expansion does it.
hell demonolgy has been overhauled almost every expansion since wotlk, with shadowlands being the first and only time since it has not had a big change.

[Celement]

I am sure that tier sets are going to once again influence how people play.

[FlubberPuddy]

I used warlock cause its what i know
and paladin only got changed cause it was literally deemed broken from the start, they purposfully broke it for hybrid tax and took a fair while to fix it, and arnt you also doing the same by just using the paladin as example?

Every class has had their expacs were nothing changes, and others where everything changes, every expansion does it.
hell demonolgy has been overhauled almost every expansion since wotlk, with shadowlands being the first and only time since it has not had a big change.

Warlock is actually the first class I mained back when I started in Wrath but haven’t played them since though I did keep up with how they changed going into Cata (having an actual Demon Metamorphosis form with MoP being the epitome of that).

But yeah I picked Paladin because I played them since Legion and then picked them up again with Classic WoW so noticed the changes. They ended up with the reverse in that since Legion they have been stale.

But no, I was simply trying to say with my Paladin if I were to go around and say “these trees are all stale they don’t change gameplay” just because of Ret that would be a folly. Since it’s clear that’s not the case for most trees.

Ret has just drawn the short end of the stick in terms of changing up gameplay.

But yeah you’re right, every class does have their lulls, Arcane Mage was another for a very long while in static gameplay but DF finally has them changing it up in a good way.

And I have been enjoying the new trees even on my Paladin.

I was simply trying to say that I hope going forward I don’t want to see them simply removing things and adding in something else with these trees to the point where it doesn’t feel like our classes are actually growing.

That’s what remains to be seen.

For now I am taking a more laid back approach to Dragonflight and am going to play it more like I did back in Wrath - not being concerned with min-maxing.

[Lahis]

5k when in raid? lol what?
will do FAR more then that.

Well we can try to make complete shit build that avoids all throughput and offensivw spells andnsee how well that fares.

[ifrah]

But we're still casting those fireballs, sinister strikes, shield slams and shadow bolts? Having core class abilities behind arduous grind, e.g. artefact powers and such was not the end of the world for me per se, but made switching from spec/covenant/legendary to another an ordeal or just a complete forget it case. At least in theory there's vastly better customisation and options available now, be it that there's not really that much brand spanking new abilities on the table.

[Hobbidaggy]

Okay so I cannot be the first to realize this right?
there is absolutely nothing new about these talents, theyre all just conduits or abilities that use to be baseline that require talent points now.

It was kind of sold as that exact thing…..they never tried to hide it and never said they were making something new that we hadn’t ever seen before in regards to talents and abilities…..sure some new stuff is there but not a lot and that’s not a bad thing. Stop trying to cause outrage for no reason it’s ridiculous

[Imnotadentist]

It was kind of sold as that exact thing…..they never tried to hide it and never said they were making something new that we hadn’t ever seen before in regards to talents and abilities…..sure some new stuff is there but not a lot and that’s not a bad thing. Stop trying to cause outrage for no reason it’s ridiculous

Not trying to cause an outrage, just making it more common knowledge. I mean heck I had no idea that this is what they meant by making a new talent system.
And there are a lot of positives and negatives with this system, some classes being way more effected than others (i mean they took windfury totem from enh, then slapped a 25% flat damage nerf on them)
Sorry if it seemed like I was sparking outrage! I just thought theyd be delivering more than this.

[hulkgor]

Well, not really.

There are a lot of previous stuff, like former set bonus, old abilities and the like, but there's also a lot of new stuff.

Personally love Syzygy as something new for boomkins.

[AlmightyGerkin]

No they didnt.



if you gunna cry about something, maybe spend all of 2 seconds going to the talent tree and typing the abilities in the search bar?
All 3 of those abilities still exist, with earth elemental literally the VERY FIRST POINT in the restoration focused section of the class tree, and wellspring and cloudburst both on the same side of the resto tree.

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Cause mate, the only one who has been 100% wrong here is you.

I find it funny how you proved that person didn't fully read the talent tree.

[Hobbidaggy]

Not trying to cause an outrage, just making it more common knowledge. I mean heck I had no idea that this is what they meant by making a new talent system.
And there are a lot of positives and negatives with this system, some classes being way more effected than others (i mean they took windfury totem from enh, then slapped a 25% flat damage nerf on them)
Sorry if it seemed like I was sparking outrage! I just thought theyd be delivering more than this.

No they didn’t lol
Have you read the talent trees at all before you are making these claims?

All but the Hot Hand build here has Windfury Totem….
https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/enhanc...builds-talents

You’re making stuff up to make it look like they have done horrible things and to spark (again) outrage. If you did the tiniest bit of prior reading you would know that they announced from the very start that it would include some tier abilities and some conduit things as well as other stuff.

Your lack of paying the slightest bit of attention and not even reading about the class you keep saying they took so much from is your own fault not blizzards.