Is the sub-based monthly model outdated?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Played GW2 for abit when it released but have no clue how it works nowadays - I am just curious on how it works, feel free to enlighten me.
You say you need to drop 200$ to get all the content, utilities etc - is that a one time cost? What about when new content releases, or utilities?

• $50 for all three expansions

• $52 for all patch content (which is sold separately and does not automatically come with the expansions even though you need the expansions as a prerequisite). If you log in you get the latest patch content for free, so assuming you log in once every couple months after you buy the game you should never have to buy a patch again.

• The Griffon flying mount requires vendor materials that cost a total of 250 gold, or $15. You can legally buy gold with IRL money in GW2, and working a minimum wage job is 50x more efficient than the best gold farms in the game.

• The Skyscale flying mount similarly requires materials that cost about 50 gold ($2) altogether.

• 5x bag slot expansions cost a total of 2,000 gems, or $25. You will also want about 4x bank tab expansions, which also cost 2,000 gems or $25. Inventory management is an absolute nightmare before you have 200 inventory slots. You acquire loot at an obscene rate in GW2. If you don't have the extra 5x bag slots then you're going to have to stop every couple hours and spend 15 minutes opening up your bags of loot and unidentified gear coffers, watching your inventory fill to full, salvage everything, and rinse repeat for several minutes. You also need bank space to store extra gear sets and weapons, mats for ascended equipment (you will get dozens and dozens of stacks of these), your mats for legendary armor and weapons, and unrecoverable lore items.

• The copper fed Salvage O'matic costs 800 gems ($10). Without this, your inventory micromanagement will take a lot longer because you will constantly have to buy a dozen or so salvage kits with only 25 uses each that sit in your inventory, reducing the rate at which you can open up your bags of loot and salvage them, as well as being tedious to go to a vendor and constantly having to buy salvage kits.

• Unbreakable gathering tools for 2,400 gems ($30). Again, a humongous time saver. Gathering isn't optional because you have gather thousands of times to complete the achievement that gives you the legendary Aurene amulet. The free gathering tools you can buy from vendors ingame only have 30-50 uses each, so you would have to buy dozens of gathering tools to not run out, and remember each item you have sitting in your inventory means that it takes longer to open up your bags of loot to salvage them and clean out the inventory.

• A build slot expansion costs 500 gems ($6.25). The game only gives you three build slots for free, which simply isn't enough.

So the total comes out to $215.25. This does not include cosmetics. Staring at a good looking character for thousands of hours is going to give you a far better experience than staring at an ugly looking one. You do not unlock all character customization options for free in GW2. You have to drop $5 for a Total Makeover Kit to access options that were not visible at character creation. You do not get any mount skins for free in GW2, and a mount skin costs $20. The most commonly used mounts are the raptor, the griffon, and the skyscale, so you're looking at dropping at least $60 to get skins for them. Also, if you play a big character like a Charr or a Norn male, you'll absolutely want to buy the Dreadnaught Raptor and Broad-Horned-Bull skyscale skin because the default raptor and Skyscale mounts look silly when a big character is riding them. Also, the best armor cosmetics are sold through the cash shop. Even if you're able to throw together a decent looking outfit using free ingame items like I did, you cannot obtain a cloak for free in GW2. You have to buy the Forest Archer's Cape for 600 gems ($7.50). If you include cosmetics than the cost of the game can easily reach $300.

Once everything is all said and done, you get to keep everything you bought until the day Anet decides to pull the plug on the servers (or bans you). Contrast that with a sub game where you have to keep paying to access the stuff you paid for. A sub game costs $15 a month, and you have to buy a boxed expansion for $50 every 2 years. So playing a sub game averages to $205 per year. In a year and a half of playing a sub game, you will have spent more than you would have on GW2. And that doesn't include services like race change, transferring off of dead servers because Blizzard is too proud to merge servers for the sensationalist headlines that would cause, or buying a WoW token so you can afford to buy stuff ingame. And then you have cosmetics like cash shop mounts and pets and helmets. WoD was pretty egregious in that mounts that should have been reputation mounts (the Fey Dragon, the Grinning Reaver, the Iron Skyreaver, etc) were waved in your face but were cash shop exclusives. If you wanted to RP a Draenei or an AU Draenor orc, you had to drop at least $25.

FFXIV is worse than WoW, because that game also has an inventory management problem like GW2. Unlike GW2, where the solution is sold to you for a one time purchase, FF14 sells you increased bank space by raising your subscription fee for $2 per retainer, which substantially increases the amount of money spent on FFXIV over the years.

[Googles]

Josh Strife Hays made a video about this exact topic.

TL;DR: What do you think happens if they remove the monthly sub? The game quality will either drastically drop because of lower funding or there will be an incredibly obnoxious in-game store as a new means to make revenue. You can't just simply remove the monthly sub with no consequences.

[Amariw]

The sub is pricy and annoying cuzz sometimes you just wanna play a week or 2 of m+ and be gone, and that's one thing, but i can tolerate it if box price is gone. If you have to pay a big price upfront each expo AND pay sub its definitely too much.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The concept of a sub is pretty outdated. That much is out of the question. The server costs ceased to be a realistic factor long ago, especially when they started to aim for yearly releases of their product. On top of that they already milk you for disproportionate amounts of money for minor cosmetic items (no mount is worth 20-25 bucks, ever) and trivial automated services like character transferns. While it may be easy to rationalize such purchases in some manner (for some), considering the cost of the actual game and the monthly access cost, somewhere along the line you got kinda fleeced. It pretty much only exists for games because of tradition in the genre, but new entries barely have a chance to get away with one. That being said, subscriptions aren't entirely without merit, as the f2p model has proven to be difficult to apply moderately. GW2 is probably the most fair game on the market in that regard, while wow is quadruple dipping with the box, the sub, the cosmetics and ludicrious prices for effectively free services. The gate-keeping of a subscription is also not entirely bad, but the discussion about the pros and cons of that are an entire discussion in and of itself. GC is definitely not wrong with his statement, and it will be interesting to see if his game's community will indeed be even more toxic than the shite munchers over here, especially given the baggage his game inherits from LoL. It will be impossible to attribute it entirely and with certainty to missing subscription costs though, even if it ends up the most heinous mire of scum, as there are other factors as well.

[Itisamuh]

Personally I think it is outdated, but I would have no problem with it if there was some benefit to being subbed. Expansions included for free, free or at least discounted character services, etc. But the fact that you have to be subbed, plus buy the expansions at full game price, plus any extra character services, is just ridiculous.

[Flame6]

I'm not gonna be happy paying for a sub in any game. I will do it, but it's going to be a serious decision in weather or not to play a game. So many other games have found ways to do live service without a sub that it seems unecessary. I actually like battlepasses and a cosmetic only MTX store.

[Celement]

Well, WoW's store ain't really that aggressive. WoW's store is just there, with no advertisement except outside the game, and a minimal amount of products compared to other MMORPGs,

I mean, there are MMOs that literally have their intro players use the store as an introduction tool. "Here, take X free currency, you can buy more to get more from the store, now, go buy this one item, this is how you do it. You will have to fill out details to use this store in the future but we will send you an invoice". Some have store advertisements as well in-game, and some even implement their store into their in-game currency system, "You earned this currency, you can sell it for gold, or use it to boost your store purchase".

I feel like we are arguing degrees here and not terribly large ones given the token and launcher ads.

[Lordofbelbol]

I’m surprised the game still hasn’t dropped the sub by now. Its one thing that keeps a lot of people from playing and even trying the game, these people could be spending way more money on MTX and would keep the game more alive. They once said it’s to cover up for server costs which IMO should be cut down by a lot aswell.

most players are 25+
15USD a month isn't stopping them from playing

[FAILoZOFF]

Have you seen how bat shit crazy people go when Blizzard add a cosmetic to the store? imagine if wow goes f2p and all the cool shit costs 10 bucks a pop. Either way, it's 15 a month which is not much different to any form of monthly subscription so if the cost of the sub alone is a worry for anyone maybe playing video games isn't for them.

Perhaps its not because of cash shop but it is cash shop and sub aaaaand box price?
Like, I personally don't quite mind cash shops, but usually prices there are just absurd, because yeah- an item worth of an entire AA sometimes AAA game or even more is just absurd imo.
It would also perhaps make them beautiful items instead of wasting time on a trash nobody wants to look at.

[Spiffums]

What is this old people mentality around here all the time lol...
MMO-C users are truly 40+ years.

Spending 15$ on WoW a month gives you more for your money than the majority of 60$ games you can play out there.

If your argument is that you only play 1-2 hours in a month then why do you even play an MMO?
It's like saying that playing LoL is bullshit, because a game takes 30-40 minutes but you can only play 10 minutes and it's somehow the fckin games fault.

The fact that WoW is sub-based is very good for the game.
It eliminates all the F2P monetization schemes, imagine being given only 10 M+ run slots a week and you need to buy more, and also keeps away the 10y old kid crowd mentality where F2P players give zero fuck about anything and just troll queues.
It's a gate that needs to be gate-kept.

On top of buying the unlock for the next set of 5 key levels. If they went F2P all the way you'd see that for each bracket in M+/raid/pvp for each season.

[Ealyssa]

Nah WoW is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment out there. A 90 minute movie at the theater is 15 bucks, while a sub lasts a whole month.

This, any other take is just superbly dumb. Especially seeing how predatory any F2P games became.
F2P isn't for the gamers, it just maximise the profit for the editors. Covering this with "entry barrier" bullshit gravy doesn't change anything.

[Relapses]

It's a byproduct of the era WoW came from but I don't think that WoW can feasibly operate outside of it at this point. I don't think anybody really wants F2P stuff in WoW and it's bad enough the game has a store on top of a monthly subscription.

I will, however, say that Greg's outlook on WoW's sub model is pretty unique since he is in the extremely enviable position of being able to develop his MMO from the ground up around a F2P model. If WoW were to be re-released today as a from-scratch MMO, I'm almost positive it, too, would use a divergent F2P model. It's simply a way more effective way to fleece a playerbase. (I think the term 'fleece' might be a bit harsh but let's be real... it's not like Blizzard is doing us any favors with the subscription fee.)

[Celement]

It's a byproduct of the era WoW came from but I don't think that WoW can feasibly operate outside of it at this point. I don't think anybody really wants F2P stuff in WoW and it's bad enough the game has a store on top of a monthly subscription.

I will, however, say that Greg's outlook on WoW's sub model is pretty unique since he is in the extremely enviable position of being able to develop his MMO from the ground up around a F2P model. If WoW were to be re-released today as a from-scratch MMO, I'm almost positive it, too, would use a divergent F2P model. It's simply a way more effective way to fleece a playerbase. (I think the term 'fleece' might be a bit harsh but let's be real... it's not like Blizzard is doing us any favors with the subscription fee.)

I think it also helps riot has the league of legends playerbase.

It's one that hasn't just embraced the f2p model but adores it.

I'm rather torn on wow as I said earlier. I don't think blizzard has the man power to deal with f2p. They would need to essentially remove all forms of economy from the game or be overrun by bots. It's bad now with bots being banned roughly once every 2-÷3 days in prime spots going off my server it would be multitudes worse if wow went f2p

[Kyphael]

The subscription pay model isn't the issue. The issue is when the game has become creatively bankrupt, and after anyone has played two or three expansions of the same thing; quest > level > gear up > instance > repeat, it loses its shine. For me the nail in the coffin to this day was the level squish in Shadowlands and no new race/new combo. Then Dragonflight threw dirt on top by introducing both, but with the least desirable, least asked-for, totally out-of-nowhere class AND race, and one is pigeonholed into the other. Not to mention rehashing dragon lore which had a conclusion at the end of Cataclysm to cheaply lure people back in with "dragons!" was just about the most uninspired expansion story idea possible, short of resurrecting Garrosh.

Would I pay $15 for WoW if it was good? In a heartbeat. But for what people are playing now, with the decisions they have made, and continue to make? I'm good. It's outdated ideas, not outdated model.

[Lochton]

I feel like we are arguing degrees here and not terribly large ones given the token and launcher ads.

When I think aggressive store, I think of massive loads on the store, in-game recognition/connection to the store (I believe we have Johnny Awesome and his dead sparkle pony as the only connection to the store?), and advertisement. The launcher does what it is made for but is hardly aggressive, it is advertisement though but what store doesn't do that?

[Celement]

When I think aggressive store, I think of massive loads on the store, in-game recognition/connection to the store (I believe we have Johnny Awesome and his dead sparkle pony as the only connection to the store?), and advertisement. The launcher does what it is made for but is hardly aggressive, it is advertisement though but what store doesn't do that?

I mean you have a dozen or so models used as forced flight paths or ripped from factions in wod like the grinning reaver and rainbow dragon.

Cata had the store mount kill deathwing... they used the wing guardian cub as a way to buy gold and then added the token.

I would argue the frequency is less then most other mmos but I would argue it's more destructive then final fantasy at the very least.

[Lochton]

I would argue the frequency is less then most other mmos but I would argue it's more destructive then final fantasy at the very least.

More destructive.. how? What WoW is doing is fragments of what FFXIV is doing?

[Celement]

More destructive.. how? What WoW is doing is fragments of what FFXIV is doing?

Final fantasy hasn't fucked with its economy yet.

While it would of existed without the token a lot of the boosting boom in popularity arrived with the token. Final fantasy sells more items of course but it's less impactful to the game proper then wow.

[Xilurm]

Game companies can't be trusted with the F2P model. It always ends up being more expensive than a B2P or Sub based model.

[Lochton]

Final fantasy hasn't fucked with its economy yet.

While it would of existed without the token a lot of the boosting boom in popularity arrived with the token. Final fantasy sells more items of course but it's less impactful to the game proper then wow.

They already have their boosting, and their fucked economy and botting with hacks. They already sell currency, and many get it when they have a sale in the store for boosts. Their items aren't of less impact, heck, their store items are displayed in every zone in one way or the other as well.

But now we are going Game vs. Game, so, yeah..

- - - Updated - - -

Game companies can't be trusted with the F2P model. It always ends up being more expensive than a B2P or Sub based model.

Yeah, I can believe so.