Do you think that the Defias Brotherhood's actions against Stormwind were justified?

[OwenBurton]

Some recently mentioned in another thread that the Defias Brotherhood wasn't evil, "they just got screwed hard and tried to do something about it. Poor vs Rich situation, so of course the rich won."

And this got me thinking a bit, and made me wonder whether they had a point. The Defias Brotherhood was formed after all from a dispute between the Stonemasons Guild and the House of Nobles, when the builders were hired to rebuild the capital city after the First War's devastation. However, Onyxia's manipulations and the nobles' greed led to rioting by the workers, which led to Queen Tiffin's death, and which THEN led to them fleeing to Westfall and establishing the Defias Brotherhood as an anti-establishment group against what they saw as a corrupt and elitist monarchy. And then during the Cataclysm, the Defias grew popular once again after lots of returning soldiers from Northrend couldn't find meaningful employment.

They were portrayed as the antagonists in-game, of course, and many of their actions were undoubtedly very radical and extreme. But in hindsight...were they at all justified? They at least probably saw themselves as heroic revolutionaries fighting on behalf of the ordinary working class, trying to improve their livelihoods and standards of living against an outdated tyrannical and exploitative system.

I mean, at least, it's hard to argue that they were completely bad, and the Stormwind nobles were good, given everything that we've learned about them since. Now that Anduin is gone, and Turalyon is ruling Stormwind with the nobles' backing, this presents another opportunity for the Defias to resurface in the future. It's one of those more complex "grey" debates in World of Warcraft that we don't see that often these days. What do you guys think?

[Yetanothernewbie]

The only mistake the Defias made was throwing the rock at the wrong Wrynn.

[Ardenaso]

the Defias were harassing the villagers, if anything they're like the Khmer Rouge of Warcraft

[MsSideEye]

I always felt that the Defais Brotherhood were a perfect example of doing the whole 'Grey' thing that was buzzworded about: A group of people who were rightfully screwed over out of what they were do and tried to fight back against it... but ended up going WAY beyond the pale and ended up hurting those who never really wronged them to try and get at the ones who did.

Perfect example would actually be Vanessa VanCleef herself. It didn't matter what had happened or why it did: Her father was killed by adventurers representing Stormwind and she felt justified in doing anything or making deals with anyone to strike back at the people she saw as responsible. It goes even further with how little she actually cares about those who work along side her, with at least a number of them there because she blackmailed them.

[BaumanKing]

Killing innocent people can NEVER be justified. The Defias Brotherhood has crossed the line and became a criminal organization. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

[sam86]

yes, in fact it was why i couldn't continue play alliance and changed to horde early tbc, back when blizz gave a fuck about good solid story, i never stomached feeling the wrong here
of course with blizz making orcs EBIL in wod all along and shitting on their own wc3 lore my comment is a joke more than serious, but in classic i never liked idea of playing alliance with defias story
BTW I LOVED many of classic stories, even tbc ones

- - - Updated - - -

Killing innocent people can NEVER be justified. The Defias Brotherhood has crossed the line and became a criminal organization. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

so if shove someone from the roof of empire state, and he fell on an innocent passerby on floor and killed him, it is his fault because he can't defy gravity?
u do know that (at start at least, before onyxia/nobles corruption) it was either kill innocents or die?

[Varodoc]

Obviously Not.

The Defias Brotherhood were nothing more than a band of terrorists. They had a problem with the government of Stormwind, but like all terrorists, they robbed, kidnapped, and killed innocent civilians. They set fields ablaze, evicted innocents from their homes, and were planning to use a weapon of mass destruction to pulverize Stormwind the capital, the largest human city left on Azeroth. Which, as you can imagine, would cause civilian casualties of untold and catastrophic proportions.

They very blatantly tried to stage a coup by having a violent riot break out in the heart of the capital, which resulted in the horrible death of Queen Tiffin Wrynn.

The Defias are literally terrorists who were planning to pulverize Stormwind City. Terrorists deserve no sympathy ever.

Their actions against the innocent civilians of Stormwind, as well as the dark genocide plans they had in store for the capital, are in no way "Justified".

[Aucald]

I think the Defias had a justifiable cause to seek restitution from Stormwind, yes. But in the end, I think they went well and truly beyond that and embraced terrorism and violence for its own sake, losing sight of their original grievances in an outpouring of directionless rage. The fact that they were present in an unrelated region beating down on the downtrodden people of the Westfall goes to show that whatever their original guiding light was, it went out some time ago.

[Soon-TM]

The Defias storyline is fairly enjoyable, first and foremost because the villains had an actual reason (in the beginning, anyway) to do what they did. I found them a little too similar to the Sons of Korhal from Starcraft for my taste, but with substantially less story focus - which was a shame.

The Defias would have been a great way to introduce the Alliance (especially Human) player to the widespread corruption and embezzlement that were eating the kingdom away. But as Blizzard has so often done, they went the cheesy way and turned them into a sort of Sendero Luminoso clone, whitewashing all the House of Nobles' funky stuff with the meme "they were just being manipulated!" cop-out.

[Myradin]

Looking at how sloppy the stonework of stormwind looks, I wouldn't have paid them either.

[Ameonna]

the Defias were harassing the villagers, if anything they're like the Khmer Rouge of Warcraft

I would say that this is the problem with any revolution movement that want to last a bit and cant take over fast enough, the problem is that since they are not a gouvernement/actual state they cant really provide a stable system that work with taxes and other reliable ways to work/get ressources etc, and so they have to gather the ressources somehow, this include having to pillage/harass/renson the people around

Any revolution ended up doing this at some points, i dont say its justified or good or bad or whatever i just say that it is how it is.

The Defias storyline is fairly enjoyable, first and foremost because the villains had an actual reason (in the beginning, anyway) to do what they did. I found them a little too similar to the Sons of Korhal from Starcraft for my taste, but with substantially less story focus - which was a shame.

The Defias would have been a great way to introduce the Alliance (especially Human) player to the widespread corruption and embezzlement that were eating the kingdom away. But as Blizzard has so often done, they went the cheesy way and turned them into a sort of Sendero Luminoso clone, whitewashing all the House of Nobles' funky stuff with the meme "they were just being manipulated!" cop-out.

This dosent really remove the fact that the house of nobles are greedy lazy people thought...i would add that yes in vanilla this was a cheap excuses, but in cata however you should take note that the defias is back and actually the homeless people rejoining them have good reasons to do so and if they are homeless its not because of manipulation but really because Varian is not that great as a king.

[FelPlague]

I would say that this is the problem with any revolution movement that want to last a bit and cant take over fast enough, the problem is that since they are not a gouvernement/actual state they cant really provide a stable system that work with taxes and other reliable ways to work/get ressources etc, and so they have to gather the ressources somehow, this include having to pillage/harass/renson the people around

Any revolution ended up doing this at some points, i dont say its justified or good or bad or whatever i just say that it is how it is.



This dosent really remove the fact that the house of nobles are greedy lazy people thought...i would add that yes in vanilla this was a cheap excuses, but in cata however you should take note that the defias is back and actually the homeless people rejoining them have good reasons to do so and if they are homeless its not because of manipulation but really because Varian is not that great as a king.

The cata homelessness is because many came back from or fell duringo the war in northend and now had nothing, the cataclysm having destroyed a lot of land, and ruined many farms and homesteads. And war runs all resources dry, it makes good money for those selling, but not for the community.

[Varodoc]

I would say that this is the problem with any revolution movement that want to last a bit and cant take over fast enough, the problem is that since they are not a gouvernement/actual state they cant really provide a stable system that work with taxes and other reliable ways to work/get ressources etc, and so they have to gather the ressources somehow, this include having to pillage/harass/renson the people around

Any revolution ended up doing this at some points, i dont say its justified or good or bad or whatever i just say that it is how it is.



This dosent really remove the fact that the house of nobles are greedy lazy people thought...i would add that yes in vanilla this was a cheap excuses, but in cata however you should take note that the defias is back and actually the homeless people rejoining them have good reasons to do so and if they are homeless its not because of manipulation but really because Varian is not that great as a king.

On the contrary, Stormwind under King Varian Canonically led the Alliance to victory in the apocalyptic war against the Lich King. But since the war proved very costly, many Stormwind citizens were evicted from their homes and took refuge in the lawless and desperate Westfall.

You can't blame Varian for this. The Lich King was going to kill everyone on Azeroth, war was inevitable, a war was going to be fought no matter what, Varian was the defensive side. And the war was going to be costly, simply because the Lich King's army was virtually infinite, replenishing itself with every battle. The war against the undead was a war of attrition and they tend to be very costly.

Accusing Varian of being a "bad" king is disingenuous, don't you think? The Lich King was trying to conquer the entire world, Varian actually led the Alliance to victory against him and helped save the world. The war resulted in mass poverty and the economy being shattered but it wasn't a war Varian started in the first place.

Those refugees had their reasons for despising Varian; but we, as irl people with meta knowledge of the events, can objectively understand that Varian did not make any mistakes. It was not a mistake to oppose Arthas in a costly, yet necessary, war.

[cuafpr]

once they crossed over to civvy targets they crossed the line and became the bad guys, so no not justified.

[Xaviaton]

Accusing Varian of being a "bad" king is disingenuous, don't you think? The Lich King was trying to conquer the entire world, Varian actually led the Alliance to victory against him and helped save the world. The war resulted in mass poverty and the economy being shattered but it wasn't a war Varian started in the first place.

It depends how you see it IMO. While the war against the Lich King was unavoidable, Varian has had a tendency to prioritize (personally) going into war over governing his kingdom, and caring for his people's needs. This was, as far as I can tell, mostly left to the nobles who had already proven how capable they were by lobbying Stormwind into not paying the Stonemasons' Guild in the first place. I think most of the additional material also focused on Varian's warrior tendencies to be a weakness as a king, even if it served the alliance well with him as a general.

[loras]

Some recently mentioned in another thread that the Defias Brotherhood wasn't evil, "they just got screwed hard and tried to do something about it. Poor vs Rich situation, so of course the rich won."

And this got me thinking a bit, and made me wonder whether they had a point. The Defias Brotherhood was formed after all from a dispute between the Stonemasons Guild and the House of Nobles, when the builders were hired to rebuild the capital city after the First War's devastation. However, Onyxia's manipulations and the nobles' greed led to rioting by the workers, which led to Queen Tiffin's death, and which THEN led to them fleeing to Westfall and establishing the Defias Brotherhood as an anti-establishment group against what they saw as a corrupt and elitist monarchy. And then during the Cataclysm, the Defias grew popular once again after lots of returning soldiers from Northrend couldn't find meaningful employment.

They were portrayed as the antagonists in-game, of course, and many of their actions were undoubtedly very radical and extreme. But in hindsight...were they at all justified? They at least probably saw themselves as heroic revolutionaries fighting on behalf of the ordinary working class, trying to improve their livelihoods and standards of living against an outdated tyrannical and exploitative system.

I mean, at least, it's hard to argue that they were completely bad, and the Stormwind nobles were good, given everything that we've learned about them since. Now that Anduin is gone, and Turalyon is ruling Stormwind with the nobles' backing, this presents another opportunity for the Defias to resurface in the future. It's one of those more complex "grey" debates in World of Warcraft that we don't see that often these days. What do you guys think?

I think it's a good question.
It's too simple to paint them as either robin hoods or radicalized rebels turning ambitiously criminal.

I'd divide it into several scales of responsibility: Systemic, group-based and personal. Additionally we will have to take into account the shifting reality that results as a consequence of their actions.
Now as we are discussing the consequences of developments on a system level regarding quite complex interplay between various groups and situations i'd argue that the personal level of responsibility is best left limited to the specific individuals, rather than trying to conflate and confuse matters by zooming in too much we should focus on the systemic and distinct-group levels.

Systemic:
At this level the highest responsibility for managing the whole lies with the king as ultimate arbiter amongst the nobles (granted i'm making some assumptions here about the specific workings of the system). And frankly it's less about employment (which is frankly a lot less relevant than our present zeitgeist wants to make it seem; it's important to sustain oneself but employment is merely one of many means to an end) but more about sustenance (food, drink, housing) and "perspective" i.e. something to work towards. The latter is of course dependant on the former to no small extent.

Given that the many vagrants and beggars we see in Westfall imply that the system already failed to provide at the most basic level the Systemic Responsibility ultimately lies with the king, and to a lesser extent with his nobles. Frankly this not only justifies doing whatever is needed to survive (honestly that is always justified in my eyes; if you are next to a starving one and do not help it is no fault of the starving one if it turns you into food, but i digress) but it also justifies actions aimed against those bearing final responsibility and the system itself. [B]However[\B] in doing so onr usurps responsibility within the system; either by effectively promoting the nobles by capturing the king, or by exerting direct influence.

Thpugh their responsibility thus grows as their power and influence does i cannot say that it ever reaches the point where they can be blamed of the state of the system, especially given Onyxia's manipulation of them in turn.


The distinct group level analysis is a bit more difficulty since we know very little of the noble houses and their interactions, nor their actions and policies, so i don't think it's useful to spend time on this.


But i think it is best summarised with a .gif:

"When injustice is law, rebellion is duty"


Though keep in mind it may have been a very different story had they succeeded.

[Varodoc]

It depends how you see it IMO. While the war against the Lich King was unavoidable, Varian has had a tendency to prioritize (personally) going into war over governing his kingdom, and caring for his people's needs. This was, as far as I can tell, mostly left to the nobles who had already proven how capable they were by lobbying Stormwind into not paying the Stonemasons' Guild in the first place. I think most of the additional material also focused on Varian's warrior tendencies to be a weakness as a king, even if it served the alliance well with him as a general.

It's actually mentioned that, during his first years of reign, Varian left the capital under the control of the House of Nobles while he toured his kingdom, protecting the people from orc raiding parties and overall directing the restoration of the realm.

Varian was at least wise enough to understand that, being a warrior and a man of action, he could best serve his country on the battlefield rather than in a palace. He was humble enough to trust the House of Nobles with stewardship of the capital while he was gone.

At most you can accuse him of being oblivious to the corruption in the House of Nobles; but after Classic, Onyxia was defeated (and she was the main corruptive influence in Stormwind) and most of the corrupt nobles were taken care of. Besides, the House of Nobles was not behind the poverty and misery in the Westfall, the Lich King and the war he started are the main factors that caused Stormwind's economy to crumble, which led to many citizens losing their homes.

Notice how VanCleef's daughter only told the poor in Westfall only half the picture. It was true that Varian failed to save the economy and it was true that he sat on his throne in Stormwind, detached from Westfall, while the people of Westfall suffered; but she conveniently left out the part where... you know... Varian led the Alliance final assault against the Lich King and played a major role in saving the living world from destruction.

You know it's funny, it's exactly how the Cataclysm Human cutscene opens up. With the narrator stating that, under the leadership of King Varian Wrynn, Stormwind led the Alliance to victory in the terrible war against the dreaded Lich King.

Conveniently, VanCleef left this crucial part out, and also didn't mention how the economy shattered because Varian was fighting a war to save the planet from undead servitude.

It's not like Varian was a Robert Baratheon-type of king who depleted the treasury by organizing lavish tournaments and feasting. The economy was depleted because Varian was leading the war efforts against a literal Demigod of Death. I'd say you can easily excuse Varian for mishandling the economy, given the circumstances.

And, for the record, VanCleef and the Defias are complete hypocrites, because they are very much responsible for the awful state Westfall is in at the start of Classic, with all their terrorists acts of crime, they ruined the fields and terrorized the population. In Cataclysm, VanCleef even ordered the execution of the very family of innocents who adopted and raised her.

It's funny how these people in this thread claim that the Defias were "fighting for the downtrodden, the poor", but then they had no problem literally slaughtering innocents and taking over their homes if it suited their needs.

[Aleksej89]

So defias are doing the same moronic thing as most modern protesters, that is they are harassing the common man instead of the richest & politicians.
Go gut a few of the richest/nobles and you gonna make more progress than decades of any other protest.

By societies design the common man has too many distractions and problems, protests targeting the common man only screw up their own agenda.

[Varodoc]

I also just noted this part:

Now that Anduin is gone, and Turalyon is ruling Stormwind with the nobles' backing, this presents another opportunity for the Defias to resurface in the future. It's one of those more complex "grey" debates in World of Warcraft that we don't see that often these days. What do you guys think?

Good luck pulling all that terrorist shit when the current rulers of Stormwind are:

- An immortal, Lightforged champion of the Light with a spaceship at his command;

- The first mortal in the Cosmos to defy the whispers of the Shadow, can teleport instantly wherever she wants, and has the power of a Void Naaru (WoD already proved that a Void Naaru is an apocalyptic entity, with the Alliance Shadowmoon questline centred around the Dark Star).

Something tells me that, if we were to see another resurgence by the Defias, Turalyon would simply order the Vindicaar to incinerate their hideout without too many problems. Thieves and cut-throats can only get so far when they're up against a literal spaceship.

And since Canonically Turalyon ushered in a period of peace that lasted for several years (timeskip between Shadowlands and Dragonflight, and the relative peace continues in 10.0), it will be even harder to rally the peasants against the monarchy...

[Linkedblade]

There story iirc, is that they were the masons in charge of building Azeroth/Stormwind and then weren't paid because of the orcish invasions. Both sides make sense. The Defias never got their pay. The current denizens of Stormwind aren't the ones indebted to them.

What doesn't make sense is why the Defias would be attacking the grounds by Northshire Abbey. That's where you first come into contact with them as a human anyway.

Recently, a new group of thieves has been hanging around Northshire. They call themselves the Defias Brotherhood, and have been seen across the river to the east.

I don't know what they're up to, but I'm sure it's not good! Bring me the bandanas they wear, and I'll reward you with a weapon.