Do you think that the Defias Brotherhood's actions against Stormwind were justified?

[Le Conceptuel]

This and the orcs clans got completly abandonned with WoW...(and i dont talk about the joke wod did with the orcish clans) but i can also mention the tauren tribes who are simply not existing in wow too...

Frankly, I think the Orcish tribes were done justice in WoD. Although WoD was a bit of a lark storywise, its worldbuilding was generally quite good and gave the different clans a good bit of flavor and their own traditions and culture. I could easily differentiate the architectural styles, aesthetics, and personalities of every given Orc clan. In a similar connection, BfA did Kul Tiras justice even in spite of its awkward overall story—not every kingdom can be given that much content, obviously, but it does set a comparative bar for identity and aesthetic uniqueness.

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They could but don't really want to.

Golden is a serviceable writer by modern Blizzard standards, but she's definitely not good at writing politics or war. She's far too preoccupied with shipping and aesthetics and the like. Not to say that either are bad, of course – Trollope, for instance, had plenty of time dedicated to aesthetics and seemed himself somewhat concerned with shipping - but there's a certain excess about it.

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It's not exactly headcanon though, perhaps mildly speculatory, but Shaw's Report explicitly stated the "corrupt officials" were indeed responsible for the fallout between Edwin and the city that he spent years helping to rebuild:
https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=1353/shaws-report

That counts more or less as blatant exploitation and injustice to me. So not only did the House of Nobles take money which rightfully belonged to the workers, exploiting them in a sense, taking their hard hours of labor without recompense, they went even FURTHER and tried to use that money on military ventures which possibly exploited other peoples well beyond Stormwind - something the ordinary people likely did NOT support. [B]TWO huge injustices from the Stormwind nobles, in fact, piled on top of each other, which even Shaw did not seem to approve of. If that doesn't make them the "bad guys", I don't know what does.

You said "they are terrorist so yeah they are mad" which is narrowed as terrorist is a word that is used to bascially call any group that try to overthrow the ruling system, by means of terrors, sometimes the civilians do sympathize with invaders and with corrupt people, withtout the civilians the corrupted gouvernement cant work properly anymore, thats why you disturb it, its just how it work...the gouvernement can be legit or not it will be the same its why your generalization here is narrowed i dont say they are good in this case i just say your message was so generalizing that it is narrowed..

I really don't understand the black-and-white rhetoric employed by many posters on this thread. The point is that they're still villains, albeit sympathetic ones. They're a political organization that has long overstepped their right to revolution and been reduced to banditry, murder, and piracy, much like a good number of historical revolutions in our world. The Defias are somewhat comparable to the Red Army or the like, a revolutionary force entirely justified in its sentiment yet unjustified in its methodology.

This can exist in the instance of either heroes or villains—there's some subjective judgements to be made and normative analysis to be undertaken in regards to the Defias. However, this particular narrative broadly suggests that Stormwind is the lesser of all evils in this particular case, especially accounting for their relative diminished responsibility due to Onyxia's influence. Personally, I think they have long since overstepped the boundaries of the ends justifying the means due to their relative decay in motivation over time—this is a good thing on a Doylist level, because it makes for a very nuanced and interesting group of villains that you can't just slaughter wholesale without having to wonder if you are no less of villains for doing so. It's the same for me as the Red Army or whathaveyou, villains who are potentially justifiable in their ends and unjustified in their means. They're still bad guys, but nobody is inclined to defend the Tsar, either.

I will say that I think it's very silly and a little bit objectionable to reduce the definition of terrorism to any kind of violent resistance to the government. There is a particular definition of what constitutes real terrorism as opposed to revolutionary activity, and I think the Defias long since crossed that line—their banditry seems to extend beyond what is necessary to fund their organization, and their terrorism seems to be more for the purpose of acquiring personal justice rather than to better the lives of other citizens of Stormwind. They also never really seem to progress towards the goal of being compensated for rebuilding the city or the like at this point, and the fact that they're maintaining a Juggernaut for the purposes of inflicting destruction rather than to exert for power projection for the sake of eventual negotiation suggests that their goal has become more vindictive than constructive. Even assuming that Vanessa's Defias is different from its predecessors and sincerely wants to better Stormwind, not much good comes of firing indiscriminately at random people in the way of your perceived revolutionary ends—sort of proceeding from that, I'd imagine that her leadership may not be too pleasant if she actually takes power. Usually, purging the bad tyrants sounds like a nice idea until you realize that such an undertaking frequently devolves into rampant scapegoating, political infighting and eventual violence between subfactions, outright classicide regardless of fault, and eventually nigh-indiscriminate murder in the interest of consolidating power, eradicating perceived political enemies in certain classes, including those which all societies need to function (i.e. intellectuals, clergy, etc.)

One thing I will add as an addendum is that modern WoW villains probably couldn't spawn this degree of discussion. This group of revolutionary bandits and pirates living in a cave can spark more intelligent and nuanced discussion than a character whose supposed profundity and depth was supposed to carry the last expansion.

[Varodoc]

You said "they are terrorist so yeah they are mad" which is narrowed as terrorist is a word that is used to bascially call any group that try to overthrow the ruling system, by means of terrors

You acknowledged that they use means of terror. Terrorists by definition seek to spread terror through illicit acts of violence, making them morally wretched.

but its the rightful King!!!"

I never said Varian did nothing wrong (although one could easily argue about it if they wanted to) so I don't know why you're attributing that claim to me.

Your personal feelings about Varian don't change the fact that he was the rightful King of Stormwind, and thus all the Stonemasons/Defias were nothing more than traitors to the Crown.

you really need me to expalin you why this is a dictatorship?

Stormwind is literally your generic English-styled parliamentary monarchy with a King (Varian/Anduin/Turalyon) accompanied by a bureaucratic body (House of Nobles) that handles the actual day-to-day affairs of the country.

It's not a coincidence that Stormwind's banner is a lion, just like England's

when Kings have absolute powers!

The problem with the Defias literally started because Varian was not an absolute monarch and was easily outplayed by Lady Katrana Prestor and her corrupted nobles...

Your rhetoric about the Defias being rebels that try to topple the Evil Empire is touching and sentimental, but disproven by reality. The Defias had at least one ally in the Royal court, Katrana Prestor, who was literally the most important noble at the time and was secretly pulling the strings behind Anduin/Bolvar.

You can't accuse the Stormwind Monarchy of being corrupted while simultaneously praising the Defias for rising up against it, because the Defias were allied with the very source of corruption inside the Monarchy (Lady Prestor).

And then i can give you an real life example of how human beings work in time of crisis which was the recent outbreak that happened in the world, and you could clearly see that many many people did not give a dam about keeping the world safe by not spreading it further and listening to restrictive consign that the government gave, and they just did not give a dam and they did what they wanted, humans dont give a dam about the world, or some kind of grand design...they dont see the bigger picture thats what i try to explain to you, they see their own little life and prioritize it and will go against the ones who make it harder not caring of the bigger outcomes

Yeah, so the peasants who only care about their petty small lives should care about the fact that the Defias are the main culprits for the desolation of Westfall, as I proved amply with direct statements from the source material.

And many of them DO care. That's why the People's Militia was formed, a large organization comprised of all those who were tired of the Defias' reign of terror.

Everyone in this thread is for some reason ignoring the fact that so many people were fed up with the Defias' reign of terror that they formed a large militia group to fight them. Said militia group was not only resisting their attacks in Classic, but even helped the fight against the Lich King in Northrend, and was eventually reinforced by the official Stormwind Army in Cataclysm.

Regardless, the idea that Westfall resented Varian is a misunderstanding of the story. Some parts of Westfall (mostly the thugs and peasants in Moonbrook) despised Varian; simultaneously, the People's Militia and the civilians of Sentinel's Hill as well as at least one farm (Saldean family) outside its walls remained loyal to Varian.

You and others here are proven wrong by the Story, because you keep having this headcanon that everyone in Westfall loved the Defias and they all agreed like buddies to rise up against the Monarchy, while in reality the Defias and their sympathizers were probably outnumbered by the King's forces, at least in Cataclysm (People's Militia + Stormwind Army + Sentinel Hill).

And even in Classic, when Stormwind Army had abandoned Westfall (due to the machinations of the Defias' ally, Katrana Prestor), the People's Militia was still large enough to hold out against the Defias.

This should already tell you that quite a lot of Westfall citizens were fed up with the Defias and would rather not see their zone fall in their hands.

because if he was so good then her revolt would not have worked so easily,

... That's literally what happened. Vanessa's revolt was crushed shortly after her attack on Sentinel's Hill. Her "successes" didn't go beyond setting fire to Sentinel's Hill.

f there is a revolt it means that a part of the people did lose faith in their King thus that he is not as good as you think, no matter the reasons.

You accused me of having a "narrowed view", then say this... Following your logic, Terenas Menethil, a ruler who was beloved by the people (like Varian) and went down to history as one of the wisest kings, was not a good ruler because the peasants revolted once in Tyr's Hand...

No King is perfect, regardless a King isn't "bad" just because of two revolts (in Varian's case) that were relatively easily put down.

Varian Wrynn was ultimately one of the leading figures in defending Azeroth against several world-ending threats and even gave his life to cover the escape of his men; he left behind a beloved legacy, with the people of Stormwind mourning his death and erecting a beautiful monument in honour of their king.

You claim he was a "bad" ruler but Blizzard clearly disagrees with you.

[DatToffer]

Golden is a serviceable writer by modern Blizzard standards, but she's definitely not good at writing politics or war. She's far too preoccupied with shipping and aesthetics and the like. Not to say that either are bad, of course – Trollope, for instance, had plenty of time dedicated to aesthetics and seemed himself somewhat concerned with shipping - but there's a certain excess about it.

I'm not sure I read a good Warcraft romance since Thrall-Taretha from Lord of the Clans. And Thrall-Taretha was not even a romance. But I thought that relationship ran deeply, was full of meaning and was challenged all the way. Most of the other romances seem so mundane, gratuitous and pointless or devoid of sense to me.

I also think the problem lies in failure to make the world live in game. When they describe the world changing in books and stories, we end up disappointed because these changes don't appear ingame. At some point, it seems they just gave up on trying to grow their fat baby even bigger and just turn to vaguely satisfying, vaguely relevant and inconsequential stories.

Which brings me to your other point :

One thing I will add as an addendum is that modern WoW villains probably couldn't spawn this degree of discussion. This group of revolutionary bandits and pirates living in a cave can spark more intelligent and nuanced discussion than a character whose supposed profundity and depth was supposed to carry the last expansion.

Similarly, failure to write nuanced antagonists seems to lead them to write pure villain against pure heroes. Although it's a bit too soon to say.

Sometimes I think there is a sad mentality at Blizzard stating that if something gets negative feedback, it needs to be put to the trash instead of improved upon. Like when the negative feedback on Vash'jir underwater lvl design led to the nonsensical plan of Azshara to take the water out of her domain in Nazjatar.

[OwenBurton]

Golden is a serviceable writer by modern Blizzard standards, but she's definitely not good at writing politics or war. She's far too preoccupied with shipping and aesthetics and the like.

I think Golden is quite good actually at fairly detailed "worldbuilding", some of her novels are genuinely engaging and very immersive in that regard. I've read almost all of the Warcraft novels, and most of the other authors, including Knaak, are not nearly as skilled as she is in that regard; they make decent efforts, but I say she is still probably the most proficient of them all, if we had to be completely objective. I also kind of like the dialogue for most of her characters at least, such as between Jaina and Thrall in The Shattering, they personally resonate with me in a way that playing the game felt also.

I remember reading her best-selling novel, "Rise of the Lich King" from a library when I was very young, I think in middle school, and while I'd never played Warcraft before, and knew little about the game or its characters, I felt overwhelmed by the graphic scenes between Arthas and Sylvanas, and the fall of Quel'Thalas in particular, it felt both real and emotionally gripping in a way that still leaves an impression on me today.

It's the same for me as the Red Army or whathaveyou, villains who are potentially justifiable in their ends and unjustified in their means. They're still bad guys, but nobody is inclined to defend the Tsar, either.

Yes, I think most reasonable people would agree for example, that both the Russian Communists and the Russian Tsar were "bad" in different ways, although they both also helped the Russian people in different ways either. In some ways, dismantling the Russian monarchy made things better, and in others, it made them far worse. Was it necessary, or inevitable, for their society to move forward, given all the millions which perished afterwards? There seems to be no consensus, even to this day. I think "change" is necessarily in any world or universe...but I also acknowledge change can be both positive and negative, and even that depends heavily on your personal perspective.

That's why people defend the Stormwind monarchy like it was some sacred institution which MUST be preserved, or else the entire world (or at least the Alliance) will end. It actually won't.

If the Wrynn bloodline loses power forever, then it could easily transition into a republic, or adopt democratic principles like Gnomeregan, for example, "The Free Republic of Stormwind" doesn't sound too bad, with the nobility and aristocracy got permanently abolished. They could have an elected representative from Elywnn, from Westfall, from Lakeshire, from Duskwood. They could even keep the old Stormwind flag if they really want, and Anduin could serve as the ceremonial head of state with certain symbolic powers if he still wanted to, perhaps even the new President if the people still wanted him (although from some of the quests, his popularity also seems to have fluctuated back and forth).

For example, in India, for example, after independence, many princely states didn't want to join the Republic of India and relinquish their long-held territories and sovereignties, but they eventually got convinced to do so by this guy, which was HOW India became the world's largest democracy. It was an older system of government slowly transforming and remaking itself into a much newer one.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vallabhbhai-Patel

[Myradin]

That's why people defend the Stormwind monarchy like it was some sacred institution which MUST be preserved, or else the entire world (or at least the Alliance) will end. It actually won't.

While I do agree settings need to change and evolve, i don't think abolishing all kingdoms in favor of a more modern democratic system is a good idea. While it has plenty of sci-fi elements, warcraft is a medieval fantasy setting at its core.

If the Wyrnn bloodline loses power forever, then it could easily transition into a republic, or adopt democratic principles like Gnomeregan, for example, "The Free Republic of Stormwind" doesn't sound too bad, with the nobility and aristocracy got permanently abolished. They could have an elected representative from Elywnn, from Westfall, from Darkshire They could even keep the old Stormwind flag if they really want. For example, in India, for example, after independence, many princely states didn't want to join the Republic of India and relinquish their long-held territories and sovereignties, but they eventually got convinced to do so by this guy:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vallabhbhai-Patel

It doesn't mean the Defias were right or justified though, and given that the whole situation was drudged up by a black dragon, I can't imagine anything resulting from the Defias would be for the net benefit of all.

[Le Conceptuel]

I think Golden is quite good actually at fairly detailed "worldbuilding", some of her novels are genuinely engaging and very immersive in that regard. I've read almost all of the Warcraft novels, and most of the other authors, including Knaak, are not nearly as skilled as she is in that regard; they make decent efforts, but I say she is still probably the most proficient of them all, if we had to be completely objective. I also kind of like the dialogue for most of her characters at least, such as between Jaina and Thrall in The Shattering, they personally resonate with me in a way that playing the game felt also.

I remember reading her best-selling novel, "Rise of the Lich King" from a library when I was very young, I think in middle school, and while I'd never played Warcraft before, and knew little about the game or its characters, I felt overwhelmed by the graphic scenes between Arthas and Sylvanas, and the fall of Quel'Thalas in particular, it felt both real and emotionally gripping in a way that still leaves an impression me today.

Honestly, I always felt like her character development stank of melodrama and her worldbuilding was generally a litlte bland. She definitely makes more of an effort than other writers in establishing cultures and traditions, but it's still pretty bland. Warcraft has never kept a high bar in that regard. As for her political writing, it's usually a little bland to me and lacks much depth or complexity. It always seems to take a backseat to interpersonal drama. Normally, this would be perfectly fine in a fantasy setting, but the nature of the game as an MMO and the degree to which the characters have bloated and become a little too busy in terms of their personalities and raw power has left it difficult to write a compelling political story.

I generally prefer Warcraft III's characters for having more distinct personalities and more complex moral leanings than Golden's portrayal of them. She has a habit of oversimplifying characters in some capacities and making them too busy in others.

For an example of good cultural worldbuilding, I'd point towards Elder Scrolls first and foremost. That's always been a very complex and interesting setting (or, at least, it has been in everything but the last two main installments). In that setting, you have a very good idea of the belief systems, architectural styles, customs and social hierarchies of the major races. I'd say the only races in WoW that really have a developed set of cultures are the Orcs (and even then that's only really the case with the Mag'har) and the Pandaren, two races that effectively had their own expansions.

That's why people defend the Stormwind monarchy like it was some sacred institution which MUST be preserved, or else the entire world (or at least the Alliance) will end. It actually won't.

If the Wrynn bloodline loses power forever, then it could easily transition into a republic, or adopt democratic principles like Gnomeregan, for example, "The Free Republic of Stormwind" doesn't sound too bad, with the nobility and aristocracy got permanently abolished. They could have an elected representative from Elywnn, from Westfall, from Lakeshire, from Duskwood. They could even keep the old Stormwind flag if they really want, and Anduin could serve as the ceremonial head of state with certain symbolic powers if he still wanted to, perhaps even the new President if the people still wanted him (although from some of the quests, his popularity also seems to have fluctuated back and forth).

Yes, but transitions to stable democracies rarely follow from banditry and terrorism. The Defias and their ilk would probably establish something more reminiscent of a communist dictatorship (or, worse, subject Stormwind to mob rule) than the representative liberal republic you're thinking of. Either way, though, it's a fantasy setting so it's unlikely that there will be a transition due to the tropes and conventions of fantasy in general.

Even if a transition did occur, though, I highly doubt the ideal way of inducing it would be terrorism sponsored by what is effectively a violent anarcho-syndicalist bandit group. Although it is true that a number of liberal representative republics were established in the aftermath of violent revolutions, either as an outcome of the revolution per se or simply as a response to it designed to placate the people and restore stability, Azeroth is frankly in a position to eventually have the monarchy dislodged or at least constitutionally-limited by a mercantile middle class due to the gradual industrialization of the setting eventually rendering the mercantilist aristocratic system they live under outmoded and introducing Kezan-style free market liberalism. A quasi-socialist uprising by a violent terrorist group seems unnecessary when the evolving demands of the market and the introduction of class mobility under capitalism would do well enough in effectively eradicating the need for a feudal system. Alternatively, Turalyon is also in a position to effectively abolish the feudal system and introduce either a modern military dictatorship (which is still an autocracy, but a more modern one with the potential for social mobility) or a de-facto theocracy.

[OwenBurton]

While I do agree settings need to change and evolve, i don't think abolishing all kingdoms in favor of a more modern democratic system is a good idea. While it has plenty of sci-fi elements, warcraft is a medieval fantasy setting at its core.



It doesn't mean the Defias were right or justified though, and given that the whole situation was drudged up by a black dragon, I can't imagine anything resulting from the Defias would be for the net benefit of all.

Perhaps, and perhaps not, there are too many factors to be considered. If Vanessa wanted to harm civilians with her juggernaut plot, then it is definitely NOT okay. But if she for example, wanted to target specifically and solely the wealthy and privileged noble class in Stormwind - perhaps symbolically destroying the Stormwind Keep that Edwin rebuilt as a gesture of defiance - then I think it's a more grey area.

Perhaps then the Defias declare themselves "liberating" 95% of Stormwind's civilian population in their successful revolution against Stormwind - I have no idea if the continue to remain part of the Alliance in this scenario, perhaps they go independent, or the other members break relations with the new Stormwind, but after a while are reluctantly recognized and re-accepted into the Alliance by the other members.

I mean, the Defias's distinctive colors, their red bandanas and banners, they were also designed carefully and meaningfully.

The hardened outlaws of the Defias Brotherhood, defiant against corrupt nobility, wear red bandanas in order to symbolize the blood shed by the oppressed.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Cla...ollowers#Rogue

In real life, radical revolutions can sometimes lead to moderate and more stable governments over time; the most obvious examples might be China, Vietnam and Cuba - while they still call themselves "revolutionary", they no longer try to actively export their political ideals abroad to the rest of the world, and are essentially capitalist systems which have unofficially renounced their founding purposes; Cuba and Vietnam are very closely engaged with America today, and most Cuban and Vietnamese people in America are among its most patriotic immigrants. Or something less recent, such as the French Revolution - as bloody as the entire process undoubtedly was, did it not still lead to France becoming one of Europe's most successful democracies and leading economies?

Perhaps the Defias might have similarly transitioned and softened, and after establishing a more democratic form of government with the monarchy's collapse, truly went back to their roots, fighting for "freedom and justice", as Edwin originally might have intended, truly standing and fighting for the voiceless and the poor, which comprise the bulk of Stormwind's populace, and vowing to "never again" allow them to be exploited or oppressed, not even by their own people.

[baskev]

Some recently mentioned in another thread that the Defias Brotherhood wasn't evil, "they just got screwed hard and tried to do something about it. Poor vs Rich situation, so of course the rich won."

And this got me thinking a bit, and made me wonder whether they had a point. The Defias Brotherhood was formed after all from a dispute between the Stonemasons Guild and the House of Nobles, when the builders were hired to rebuild the capital city after the First War's devastation. However, Onyxia's manipulations and the nobles' greed led to rioting by the workers, which led to Queen Tiffin's death, and which THEN led to them fleeing to Westfall and establishing the Defias Brotherhood as an anti-establishment group against what they saw as a corrupt and elitist monarchy. And then during the Cataclysm, the Defias grew popular once again after lots of returning soldiers from Northrend couldn't find meaningful employment.

They were portrayed as the antagonists in-game, of course, and many of their actions were undoubtedly very radical and extreme. But in hindsight...were they at all justified? They at least probably saw themselves as heroic revolutionaries fighting on behalf of the ordinary working class, trying to improve their livelihoods and standards of living against an outdated tyrannical and exploitative system.

I mean, at least, it's hard to argue that they were completely bad, and the Stormwind nobles were good, given everything that we've learned about them since. Now that Anduin is gone, and Turalyon is ruling Stormwind with the nobles' backing, this presents another opportunity for the Defias to resurface in the future. It's one of those more complex "grey" debates in World of Warcraft that we don't see that often these days. What do you guys think?

if you live long enough, you become the villian.

While their origins might be good/not evil.

The later killings etc made the evil.

Like with elon musk, kanye, trump, republicans etc. They might started out nice. But became something else.

[Le Conceptuel]

Perhaps, and perhaps not, there are too factors to be considered. If Vanessa wanted to harm civilians with her juggernaut plot, then it definitely not okay. But if she for example, wanted to target specifically and solely the noble class in Stormwind - perhaps symbolically destroying the Stormwind Keep that Edwin rebuilt as a gesture of defiance - then I think it's a more grey area.

The intentions of the Defias with the Juggernaut are kind of unclear. It seems like they probably just want to mount an attack on Stormwind and dethrone the monarchy, something which would probably lead to substantial civilian casualties and unprecedented economic damage.

If they wanted to enforce change reasonably, why not just issue an ultimatum to the monarchy by using the Juggernaut as a tool for power projection? That's entirely within their capacity, given that a single Juggernaut is apparently seen as something which could cause substantial damage to Stormwind. I suppose it is possible that Prestor had some role in the Defias not trying to just power project into Stormwind, but it generally seems like they were perfectly willing to use extraordinary violence to accomplish their goals, and I also don't know exactly how much they were really thinking about the society they'd establish after deposing the monarchy.

On top of all that, there's also the question of what to do with people that may not like being effectively ruled by bandits, especially given that the Wrynn dynasty seems to be pretty overwhelmingly popular. I highly doubt the people would just take it lying down.

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Perhaps the Defias might have similarly transitioned and softened, and after establishing a more democratic form of government with the monarchy's collapse, truly went back to their roots, fighting for "freedom and justice", as Edwin originally might have intended, truly standing and fighting for the voiceless and the poor, which comprise the bulk of Stormwind's populace, and vowing to "never again" allow them to be exploited or oppressed, not even by their own people.

That's a big "perhaps", and not really something that happens as often or as smoothly as you may think. Most of the transitions you mentioned occurred as a result of substantial social and economic unrest, and I would also add that the factors which allowed them to occur only really exist in the environment of 20th century geopolitics. If the Defias deposed the monarchy, they'd likely just establish their own bandit dictatorship until they either collapse on their own due to infighting or are invaded successfully by a foreign power (i.e. Khaz Modan). Although the idea of a bandit kingdom is very interesting and I do think this hypothetical has been really tickling my brain about the idea of a Stormwind run by bandits, it certainly wouldn't be much better than the monarchy.

[OwenBurton]

The intentions of the Defias with the Juggernaut are kind of unclear. It seems like they probably just want to mount an attack on Stormwind and dethrone the monarchy, something which would probably lead to substantial civilian casualties and unprecedented economic damage.

If they wanted to enforce change reasonably, why not just issue an ultimatum to the monarchy by using the Juggernaut as a tool for power projection? That's entirely within their capacity, given that a single Juggernaut is apparently seen as something which could cause substantial damage to Stormwind. I suppose it is possible that Prestor had some role in the Defias not trying to just power project into Stormwind, but it generally seems like they were perfectly willing to use extraordinary violence to accomplish their goals, and I also don't know exactly how much they were really thinking about the society they'd establish after deposing the monarchy.

On top of all that, there's also the question of what to do with people that may not like being effectively ruled by bandits, especially given that the Wrynn dynasty seems to be pretty overwhelmingly popular. I highly doubt the people would just take it lying down.

That's a big "perhaps", and not really something that happens as often or as smoothly as you may think. Most of the transitions you mentioned occurred as a result of substantial social and economic unrest, and I would also add that the factors which allowed them to occur only really exist in the environment of 20th century geopolitics. If the Defias deposed the monarchy, they'd likely just establish their own bandit dictatorship until they either collapse on their own due to infighting or are invaded successfully by a foreign power (i.e. Khaz Modan). Although the idea of a bandit kingdom is very interesting and I do think this hypothetical has been really tickling my brain about the idea of a Stormwind run by bandits, it certainly wouldn't be much better than the monarchy.

But then again, that rests on the assumption, that 99% of the Defias members WANT to remain bandits indefinitely after the Stormwind monarchy is finally dismantled somehow. They would have access to all of Stormwind and Elwynn's vast natural and economic resources, and from what Vanessa did in Westfall, I think she would at least make a decent effort to redistribute those resources more fairly, perhaps even favoring the stonemasons in this scenario.

I assume they also have wives and families, Edwin certainly did, and other personal interests and hobbies. After they return to Stormwind (the city THEY rebuilt and lived in after all), they could moderate their activities considerably. Perhaps lots of them could simply live in the Trade Quarter and go back to stonebuilding, serving as reserves in the new Defias-dominated Stormwind military. They could even reconnect with old friends and acquaintances once their access to Stormwind was properly restored, and they would renounce violence mostly because they had no NEED to continue to perpetrate it against their own people once their grievances were finally AND completely addressed. Doesn't that sound like a much better and more meaningful ending to this long story than simply, "Let's kill them all and hope none of them survive"?

Nor am I certain that the Wrynns were "overwhelmingly" popular either - the people of Westfall certainly had a very poor opinion of Varian, and lots of those refugees also came from other Stormwind-controlled areas. (And as we know, Stormwind's people felt Anduin while very kind, was not nearly as competent a ruler as his father was.) Have you not considered the possibility that while Varian was fairly popular inside the metropolis of Stormwind City, he was much less so among the other populations in more distant rural areas?

We have no idea whether most people in most other Stormwind-governed lands for example, strongly support his sovereignty, or they were at best lukewarm and just kept their heads down because they were "used to" the status quo. (That was the case in China after WW2, I think, the old government was very popular in the cities among intellectuals and businessmen, who did indeed have lead very comfortable and satisfying lives, but much less so among farmers and laborers, which was what led to the Communists taking over there).

Where is the help that we requested from Stormwind?
My spouse has gone missing! Please help!
Please help me! I'm the last member of my family left. Everyone else has been kidnapped!
It's time to wake up, magistrate! These aren't ordinary gnoll attacks!
You can forget about re-election, magistrate!
How long must we stand here before our pleas are heard?
The gnolls have never been this aggressive. What's going on, Solomon? Tell us!
What are we paying our taxes for if your guards can't even keep gnolls out?
You're good for nothing, Solomon.
Townspeople are disappearing, Solomon. What are you going to do about it?
You'd better do something quick or you'll have a riot on your hands, Solomon!
If you don't do something about these gnolls, we will!
Get this damned line moving!
No justice, no peace!
My children were kidnapped while they slept! I WANT ANSWERS, SOLOMON!
Forget you, Solomon. I'll find my family by myself.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Redridge_Citizen

These Lakeshire citizens hardly seem patriotic or pro-government, or supporters of Varian Wrynn's policies - they seem extremely angry and frustrated with their heavy taxes, and dissatisfied that despite Stormwind's promises to protect them from outside threats, their families are still being attacked, and Magistrate Solomon seems to be a very feeble and failed leader. And RIGHT next to Redridge, Westfall's people are also suffering, in a state of heavy famine and disenfranchisement. Again, that is very much reflective of the Stormwind monarchy, protecting them and caring for their needs is its greatest responsibility, and yet, once again, it seems that they failed to do so.

And there is something else to remember - whatever his later crimes, the common working people of Stormwind originally CHOSE Edwin to be their elected representative and leader, just as the Defias later likely chose Vanessa to lead them anew. Just like they CHOSE to join in his protest and CHOSE to flee with him. Because he was still THEIR chosen leader and representative, just in a different way. They personally chose to share in his "defiance", regardless of the considerable risks and consequences. The same unfortunately cannot be said for the Stormwind monarchy or the nobles that it has enabled for centuries.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rep...as_Brotherhood

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where the brotherhood does win and take over Stormwind. Since they are ruthless and dangerousky. Basically a army made out of scumbags, thieves, bandits, kingpins, crime lords etc. I don't see it going well for the other factions. They'll probably conquer all of the upper portion of Eastern Kingdom.

I can see holding their own against the Burning Crusade, Scourge Necropolis attack, and elementals. Could probably hunt down Deathwing, Doom lord Kazzard, and even bring down a Necropolis. But they would die when the Legion invades.

[Ameonna]

Frankly, I think the Orcish tribes were done justice in WoD. Although WoD was a bit of a lark storywise, its worldbuilding was generally quite good and gave the different clans a good bit of flavor and their own traditions and culture. I could easily differentiate the architectural styles, aesthetics, and personalities of every given Orc clan. In a similar connection, BfA did Kul Tiras justice even in spite of its awkward overall story—not every kingdom can be given that much content, obviously, but it does set a comparative bar for identity and aesthetic uniqueness.

You think this because you did not go deeper into it, i will explain to you why 99% of wod "world building" is either a retcon of war1/2 either making no sense in wod own world building...and i will explain it with how every single clans got "improved" in wod.

Before i talk about some clans in details to explain the problems WoD brought, i will instantly counter the "alternative timeline" arguement because i know someone will eventually bring it up like "Ho but its normal if its different because its alternative!!!" Thing is, this excuse was used by the devs in many many interview during WoD as a trump card to avoid issues during wod, BUT then during Legion they releassed chronnicle V2 which talk about OUR timeline and use 90% of wod lore on the orcish clans...and all i will say here is in chronnicles v2 as well as in wod which means its in both timeline so you cant use the alternative turmp card here. Note that we still see the harm being done by this even to these days like for example when Draka in SL says to Thrall that she recognize the blue eyes of her husband, while Durotan had brown eyes BEFORE wod, but wod chose to give him blue eyes, while the blue eyes of Thrall in the Leader of the Rebellion novel was his unique physical trait...

Blackrock clan : Ha Blackrock clan, lets start with the one that got the most scaming issue in wod, the blackrock orcs, what do we knew about them in war1/2? Not much, we just knw that they were the clan with the highest military strenght (something they kept in wod) and they used big black wolves in battle (yup they were the wolf riders not the warsong and also black wolves were the only wolves in draenor there was no other colors of wolves but lets not linger on this fact yet) their colors was red, now is this color used in wod? NOPE dont care, they use black armor and have fire eyes, also they were green skinned, they had no specific colors of skin they were just green, but in vanilla they explained their skin went dark because they lingered in blackrock mountains...now in wod? Ha yes they are dark skiined too because they lingered in gorgrond...

Now keep this up because you will understand that Vanilla blackrock are in reality the inspiration the devs used for them and not war1/2 because, when you look at the blackrock in wod, how they look like? What weapons do they use? (Hammer) What is their eyes colors? (red) What is their special skills? (Blacksmith), Now that you listed all this what is the race that use all these as their watermark? If you know blackorck mountains you will come up with something called DARK IRON DWARVES!!!!!!! YES Blackrock orcs in wod are just dark iron orcs, they stole literally everything from the dark iron dwarves, and proof is, if you use blackrock mogs on dark iron dwarves it fits just very well...

But so you will ask me, but what are the blackrock orcs looking like? Well, Grunts, they are the strongest, the most numerous clans, in all the horde, you have a lot of blackrock orcs in Thrall's horde actually, the regular guards are supposed to be blackrock, and you will say "ho but how can you know its not said anywhere" and you will be right, but in war1/2 the grunts are from any clans on paper, but since the blackrock are the ones with the biggest army, then its logicial most of the grunts are blackrock.

PS : What wod will also add (and will be also in chronnicles v2) is that the Blackrock are completly shaved, even their hair, thats why all famous blackrock are bold...like Orgrim in wod, like Eitrigg, like Saurfang...ho wait they are not!!!!

Warsong Clans : What do we knew about the Warsong in war2/3 (since they are not in war1) they were very savages, their color was red in war2 and purple in war3 (what is their color in wod? ha yes brown...) they were very firce warriors and thats IT!!!

Now in wod, they got the whole wolf riding thing, the mongolian culture style which was btw THE CULTURE FOR ALL THE CLANS in war1/2/3 and not just them, you can clearly see it in the "Last Guardian" cover, from before war3 you see orcs emerging from the dark portal, and its the events of war1 and in the first war there is no Warsong evolved so they are mainly from Blackrock clan.

Bleeding Hollow : The bleeding hollows in war1/2 are described has having 2 colors, Green and Orange, these were not much used in wod either they will be brown like other clans...what els do we know from these times, that the Bleeding Hollow were the 2nd biggest clan in Draenor, (so just after the Blackrock) and they were the war veterans of the Horde, the thing is, you did not have all the visions stuff in original canon, Bleeding Hollow were described as very shamanistic and all, but not very savages (these will be more for the Warsong and the Shaterred Hand) the fact Kilrogg had one missing eye was not because of ritual but because he lost it in battle and it was a triat of him being a war veteran and this was why he was so respected.

Now in wod, what did they do with the Bleeding Hollow? Like the Blackorkc they stole another culture from Azeroth, they have blood rituals that turn them into berzerker, they have pyramide buildings....now what culture do you know on Azeroth with such things yes! Gurubashi Trolls and just like Blackorkc who became just dark iron dwarves but with orcs, Bleeding Hollow became Gurubashi trolls but orcs...

Shattered Hands : What we know from them in war2, their color is white, (wow wod respected that color but a bit too much you will see why) they are very savage and like to mutilate themselves.

In WoD this will be retaken, but wrongly, because in wod, their skin is white, and you will tell me "Ho but why is that an issue?" It would not be an issue if this was explained, like they could say they have their skin turned white by putting ashes on it, (Kratos style) or stuff, but no, they are just white, now this is an issue when it comes to the 2nd addition from WoD to their lore which is that their main theme is that they are made up of orcs from ANY origins, now explain to me, if they come from various clans and zones, why are they all the same skin colors? Well devs will never answer to that quesiton!!! =p

Frostwolf : We know very few about them before wow, most of it is said in the Leader of the Rebellion novel, and it dont really mention their origin, in BC however it is explained that they came from Nagrand, and that they take their names from the frostwolves living in Draenor...

Now in Wod its a big mess, they tell you that they live in Frostfire Ridge (a zone added witrh wod) and that they migrate to Nagrand when its winter (even if Frostfire is always in winter so it makes no sense...) but also how can they travel in Nagrand while there is a dam sea in between and also there is other livable zone less far...no idea!!!

Burning Blade: What we know from them in war2/3 and Vanilla is that they were very very very savages, the most unrully of the clans, so savages and unrully THAT THEY HAD NO LEADER it was their unique trait compared to other clans, and what wod did with this? Yup they added them a leader...

Shadowmoon : What do we know from war2 about them is that they are the main shmanistic clan of the Horde, their color is the BLACK (not purple sorry wod) they are the ones who pactice all of the rites accodring to spirits, to the deads etc, by burning them....yes; ho yes you did not know this point? That orcs culturally burn the bodies of their deads, they dont burry them, but yeah wow forgot this, wod forgot this too with dungeon shadowmoon burial grounds when you fight tons of orcs skeletons...

And i will end the tour of the clans for now, but i surely forgot some points, there is so many that i surely forgot some, i advice you to get your own infos on the topics, i saw there is very good videos on the subject on your own language (you are French from what i understood)

But to make a conclusion if we would give the WoD treatment to the Humans Kingdomes, then it would as if you had blue skinned humans in Lordaeron, red skinned ones in Stromguard etc and also steal culture from other races just like they did wiht the orcs in wod...so yeah i really hope humans Kingdomes dont get such things

[Nymrohd]

*snip

So your issue is that the original clan lore was very underdeveloped and that WoD in the process of defining each clan, giving it unique cultural elements, expanding their tools, practices and magic retconned a few colors that did not really fit the existing environments?

[Cynical Asshole]

I get they were swindled and cheated. I get they made sacrifices for which they weren't reimbursed. But the way they chose to get back at the nobles of SW is not the right way. The people are not at fault for what the nobles did, nor should they be collateral victims of revenge.

So no, the Defias Brotherhood were not justified in their plan.

[Thundering]

The Defias brotherhood basically attacked farmers, due they where not payed for helping rebuilding Stormwind.
But the King already stated they would be repaid and it was only "lady prestor"/Onyxia that rallied some nobles to support her to deny this.
That the king got kidnapped something the defias had a hand in, and thereby making it impossible to pay the Defias for their help.....
As a result i Believe what they did was entirely wrong if something they could have helped to figure out who this prestor was.

[Ameonna]

So your issue is that the original clan lore was very underdeveloped and that WoD in the process of defining each clan, giving it unique cultural elements, expanding their tools, practices and magic retconned a few colors that did not really fit the existing environments?

Ok so, you either trolling, not reading what i said, or have understanding issues, because the simple fact you say the orcish clans got unique cultures in wod means you did not read the part when i said they stole culture from other races...also your point make not much sense, the bleeding colors were green/orange, they are in green jungle, but they are all brown...so i have no idea in which way the originale colours would not fit the "existing envrionnement"

I mean, you really want we talk about the "existing environments" of Draenor? Ok lets talk about it, in Draenor in war2/3 (since we dont see the orcish world in war1, there is a clear desciption of it as being a Fungal world, with NO TREES, the waters were green and all kind of flore was of fungal origins, mushroom mostly and was how it was describbed before it got destroyed, but in TBC we lost completly this aspect and it became no logner a unique fungal world but some regular world with tree and only one zone with mushrooms...so nope you dont know the "existing environments" it seems.

But i want to also point out is that even in the elements they added in WoD they managed to not make sense with their own things (see my point in the shaterred hands) and thats just an achievement.

Also about the "cultural" aspect of the clans, i can also mention that it makes no sense for an army like the Iron Horde to have only one clan with guns, jetpacks, canons, etc and not equipping other clans with the same weaponery as you still have Bleeding Hollow and Warsong running around half naked and using stick...you will be like "but culture!!!" and i will say that it dont matter if you can have a more efficient weapon you take it!

So yeah, i think you troll but if you dont you need to review your thoughts

[OwenBurton]

And yet he went to war in Northrend, risking his own life at the very doorstep of Death, to defend Stormwind and all of Azeroth from servitude to the Lich King. While the Defias cut-throats hid in a shadowy hideout like cowards and harassed peasants.

Well, Varian actually didn't "personally" participate in the final fight against the Lich King, he kind of stayed out of the conflict...his only real fight scene in Northrend I think was clashing with Garrosh at Dalaran, openly refusing to cooperate with the Horde or Rhonin, and then contemptuously declaring, "May this death god take you all!" before teleporting away. And the Defias were already dismantled by then (their leader had been killed by Alliance mercenaries via Stormwind's orders), I think it was only after Deathwing returned that they also resurfaced.


There are ALWAYS two sides to every story, life is very complicated. For example, Captain Alpert, sent by Stormwind, coolly refers to the Westfall refugees as "natives", objects of suspicion and mistrust, not people he wanted to personally help and assist in their personal lives.

The natives are restless, <name>. I don't know what's going on, but homeless activity in this area has quadrupled in the past two days. If I didn't know any better I'd say they were planning something...

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/To_Moonbrook!

Give a man a tabard and he will pledge his undying loyalty to your cause. These men are now government sheep who care not for your hardships. They wear the tabard of their leader and care only for what he desires.
-V

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Informational_Pamphlet

I can hardly believe it. We've endured this torment for four long years. The Brotherhood will be reborn and we will then wash across this land as a flood to cleanse it of its filth and corruption.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Secret_Journal

Those are propaganda pamphlets, but there is truth in some of what they say. Westfall was indeed a corrupt place, and I think Varian was indeed partly responsible due to his incompetence or negligence. And what Vanessa says about the Stormwind soldiers seem fairly spot on, they are extremely loyal to the monarchy to the point of fanaticism, saluting him and obeying him in everything, they do whatever Varian says and orders without the slightest hesitation, as far as we know.

Witnesses state that the four men killed at the Furlbrow's farm were on their way to delivering dirt pies to a shelter on the east coast when attacked. Jimb "Candles" McHannigan, an eyewitness on the scene, had this to say, "Yep, I saw the whole thing go down with my own two eyes. Was a <male/female> <class>. <He/She> looked like <he/she> may have been on something. <He/She> slaughtered the poor bums in broad daylight while shouting obscenities and proclaiming <his/her> love for Stormwind and King Varian Wrynn. I think <he/she> may have killed Lou immediately afterward. I was too shaken up to see."

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Iss...oonbrook_Times

I mean, I just think some people might have a blind spot. If Varian for example, had pardoned and recruited the Defias during the Cataclysm, perhaps sending them to fight Garrosh's incursions in Ashenvale as rogue operatives, or used that massive juggernaut against Orgrimmar after Theramore...would most Alliance players have judged them quite to harshly and labeled them as evil radicals? If the Defias had participated in the Faction Assaults, for example, would they be seen as evil? I am not so sure. I think lots would not object to their actions, in fact. In Tehran, I remember a powerful quote from the main character Tamar while trying to persuade Faraz to turn on his outdated and authoritarian government (both were born in the same country, but they simply fought on opposite sides of their regime), "I was born here, my family comes from here; our language and culture, even the man I love comes from here. There are times, and this is one of them, when duty and honor mean resistance..."

I also feel uncomfortable with Varian just "sending" someone to kill Edwin, as other Defias members seemed to have been imprisoned in the Stockades. He was still legally a Stormwind citizen, and entitled to the same rights as everyone else as was his birthright. Even Hogger was taken in alive to the Stockades by the Stormwind guards, was he not? Killing him in front of his daughter without any kind of due legal process just seems wrong to me, something like a rival radical group would do, NOT the legitimate government. He should have been captured, sent to a public trial before his peers, and THEN sentenced to whatever penalty the court of law deemed fit. Much like Garrosh was. I mean, if someone like Garrosh (who destroyed Theramore and started an actual world war) was deemed capable of change by the August Celestials, and spared the punishment of death, then I think there's an argument for Edwin's rehabilitation, as long as he was carefully monitored and supervised for a while afterwards, perhaps via arcane means?

I think people paint EVERYONE in the Defias as plastic, oversimplified cardboard figures; they are NOT robots, subversive criminals certainly, but ALSO flesh-and-blood feeling and intelligent individuals (even in real life, people who commit such violent crimes, such as robbery and assault, are sometimes able to significantly change themselves after incarceration and extensive counseling and treatment).



For example, if Garrosh or Sylvanas had suddenly attacked Stormwind, and the Defias were still active and heard about their fellow humans' plight...what do you think they would do in such a scenario? It would be really interesting if they showed up at the last minute to defend Stormwind, their city after all, they literally helped construct its walls and buildings, and some of them might have lots of relatives and loved ones there. And then the Defias and the Stormwind Army work together to repel the invaders, saving their capital and perhaps redeeming themselves in the eyes of everyone.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, I've made my points, pretty much all of them in fact, but there's one last thing, a seeming misconception of some kind I would want to clarify.

Fourthly, Vanessa VanCleef had the Furlbrows family assassinated. Given how this was the family that literally raised her, gave her a home, fed her, protected her, loved her for years... it's very messed up to have them assassinated. Especially when you paint yourself as a "freedom fighter" who is "defending the downtrodden against the unjust Monarchy". She defended the downtrodden so much that she 1) had her innocent civilian family assassinated 2) launched a massive assault of Sentinel's Hill, a town and thus a civilian target 3) continued her father's scheme to besiege the capital with a massive orc warship.

This was something I was also confused on - it was deeply wrong and reprehensible that Vanessa killed the Furlbrows (although to be fair, I think the two of them were also the ONLY NPCs that was confirmed to have killed by Vaneesa, compared with other "evildoers" in the story, her causalty list is indeed quite tame). The Furlbrows were NOT Vanessa's adoptive parents; they seemed to have been two farmer NPCs introduced in Classic Warcraft, who supposedly knew Vanessa since she was an "infant" - likely from before Edwin and Vanessa's pre-Defias days, when Edwin was still a highly respected Stonemason, or when he himself was working in Westfall.

Basically, after witnessing Edwin's death at the hands of the Alliance, Vanessa fled the Deadmines as a young girl, and weary and exhausted, stumbled into the house of ANOTHER random northern Westfall family (the Saldeans), who adopted her and raised her for 4 years.

The Westfall couple who adopted her still seem to be alive and healthy today, they were hiding from the demons' invasion, Vanessa didn't scratch a hair on their heads during the Westfall quests, so she could have remained weekly pen pals with them after she escaped the Alliance's attempt on her life for all we know. Perhaps she still sends them weekly exotic gifts and chocolates from Dalaran. Perhaps she told them that Hope, their daughter, was traveling and exploring the world or something (which could very well have been accurate), and they are still on good and friendly terms. "Mom, Dad, I know I left you guys suddenly, but I definitely found a new home and calling now..."

While it's not an excused to be murdered by the Defias of course, Furlbrow also didn't seem like the nicest person either, and even considered Saldean a "fool", so in fact, it's implied the two families were on great terms either...perhaps another reason Vanessa had them "taken care of", perhaps one day she overheard them loudly insulting her adoptive parents somehow, her face hardened, and she personally took offense and arranged for someone to pay them a visit? Perhaps it was indeed "extremely" personal for her.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Farmer_Furlbrow

[Myradin]

I also feel uncomfortable with Varian just "sending" someone to kill Edwin, as other Defias members seemed to have been imprisoned in the Stockades. He was still legally a Stormwind citizen, and entitled to the same rights as everyone else as was his birthright. Even Hogger was taken in alive to the Stockades by the Stormwind guards, was he not? Killing him in front of his daughter without any kind of due legal process just seems wrong to me, something like a rival radical group would do, NOT the legitimate government. He should have been captured, sent to a public trial before his peers, and THEN sentenced to whatever penalty the court of law deemed fit. Much like Garrosh was.

First of all, Varian was kidnapped (by said Defias) when the heroes got the mission to kill Edwin. So he couldn't have ordered the hit.

Secondly, it isn't stormwind that gives you the task of Edwin, its Gryan Stoutmantle, who formed the militia specifically because stormwind wasn't handling it. Effectively its vigilante justice, not the government coming to assassinate Edwin.

[Varodoc]

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where the brotherhood does win and take over Stormwind. Since they are ruthless and dangerousky. Basically a army made out of scumbags, thieves, bandits, kingpins, crime lords etc. I don't see it going well for the other factions. They'll probably conquer all of the upper portion of Eastern Kingdom.

I can see holding their own against the Burning Crusade, Scourge Necropolis attack, and elementals. Could probably hunt down Deathwing, Doom lord Kazzard, and even bring down a Necropolis. But they would die when the Legion invades.

Really? You think a band of terrorists, cut-throats, gangsters, and thieves is that powerful?

They wouldn't conquer anything lol, since they're terrorists, they'd just destroy each other after the Monarchy's toppled. Evil people never get along when they're no longer united by a common cause.

Even their "conquests" in Westfall depended solely and exclusively on their ally at court (notice the hypocrisy: these terrorists who want to topple the Royal court are also allied with one of the nobles) undermining Stormwind from within and sending its Army away from Westfall. And even in spite of this, the Defias still couldn't defeat the People's Militia, a large organization of Westfall farmers and civilians who were tired of the Defias' reign of terror.

[RobertMugabe]

Killing innocent people can NEVER be justified. The Defias Brotherhood has crossed the line and became a criminal organization. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.

I like killing innocent people in WoW.