Allied Races - yup lost.

[Itisamuh]

I'm not surprised to hear SL is the new WoD: A Leveling Experience no one wants to do more than once if they don't have to.

Stuff like this definitely makes me feel out of touch with what the majority of the playerbase wants. Shadowlands easily had my favorite leveling of any expansion as a whole; I loved Maldraxxus and Revendreth in particular. I also loved the original restricted Maw and Torghast, something else the masses seem to despise for reasons that baffle me.

[Hctaz]

The difference here is that WoD leveling is still at least marginally fun. SL never was, and never will be. Horrifying experience all around.

Definitely agree with this.

WoD leveling was definitely better than SL. I had a good time exploring the zones. IMO, WoD had some of the best zones we've ever gotten. If not the best, then they're certainly the last good zones and leveling experience that we've gotten.

After WoD, they really shifted the zones to feeling like a theme park. The way zones existed prior was that they really tried to make them feel alive, big, and open.

Legion cram packed everything together and made sure every single place had a purpose. "That cave? That's for a world quest. That mountain? You go up there for a quest chain."

Nothing just... existed anymore it felt like, and I feel like the leveling experience felt more that way as well.
Every zone basically led up to telling one very specific story. It was all an on-rails experience with very little you could do out of order or very little side quests you could do just because.

Previous expansions gave you some options. "Here are 5 quest hubs in the zone each with their own individual story. You can do them in any order or not do them at all if you'd like."

Each zone in WoD did have a specific narrative that they were trying to tell, but it still felt like you were kinda just going around helping people. "I know I'm supposed to be dealing with the Iron Horde, but this village of Orcs out here needs help with their infestation problem. I'll go focus on them for a bit." Like there were things OUTSIDE of the main story line that you could do to level, and sometimes needed to do to level as the main story line wouldn't level you up enough to get to the next zone.


Shadowlands was so bad that my wife and I couldn't even hit max level. Or if we did, it wasn't memorable. I haven't even logged on in a long time, so I have no idea if I ever even did hit the level cap to be honest... LOL kinda sad that's the state of leveling in WoW.

[Nynax]

Now you absolutely have to be level 60. I tried hard to avoid going into Shadowlands, because I wanted to do it on a new character, but my dailies were done, world quests too, so I decded just to do the initial quests that get you settled in Shadowlands and right after I hit 60, the Allied race quests were available at the Stormwind Embassy. Which makes no sense since those wre supose to be for two expansions ago.

With the new expansion launch, they changed it so that new players still level BFA but now level all the way up to 60. Completely skipping Shadowlands. The assumption must be that lvl 60 is the new cap for BFA content and you need to hit cap to unlock the race quests.

Kinda odd, to be sure, and I wonder what that means for soloing BFA raids....

[Venziir]

The leveling is literally the only good thing about WoD lol. It's the perfect combination of storytelling and freedom, with varied and distinct zones, sensible layouts, relevant side stuff, and balanced and reasonable quest lines. No other expansion leveling flows as well as WoD does, while never feeling like you're on rails, and never feeling like you're wasting time. They NAILED it with WoD leveling, especially with scaled zones so you can go wherever you want.

The WoD zones weren’t scaling though, that was a Legion/BFA thing.

[Biomega]

The WoD zones weren’t scaling though, that was a Legion/BFA thing.

I know, that's why I added it at the end.

[Aurabolt]

WoD was the last expansion to have a linear questing experience before DF. Legion, BFA and SL (while it was current) all allowed you to pick what zone you wanted to level as regardless of order, story content was confined to the zone you were in.

Every expansion up to and including WoD had linear questing experiences. Blizz decided to try something different with Legion and it was so well received, they brought it back for BFA and while it was current, SL via Threads of Fate for Alts (Threads of Fate is going away with DF).

[MrLachyG]

Now you absolutely have to be level 60. I tried hard to avoid going into Shadowlands, because I wanted to do it on a new character, but my dailies were done, world quests too, so I decded just to do the initial quests that get you settled in Shadowlands and right after I hit 60, the Allied race quests were available at the Stormwind Embassy. Which makes no sense since those wre supose to be for two expansions ago.

right now BfA scales to 60 because all Chromie time scales to 60. so that's why you have to be level 60 to do those quests. is it wonky? yes, absolutely. BfA is in particular all over the place because world content scales to 60, normal dungeons scale to 60 but (presumably) heroic and mythic bfa dungeons are scaled to 50, and I know raids are scaled to 50. really, really hoping they don't do this again after Dragonflight. I understand doing it for SL, because it was less than well received but bumping everything up 10 levels each time is going to be a pain in the ass. keep BfA and Chromie Time at level 60, DF goes from 60-70 in 11.0 and then in 12.0 prepatch you can add DF to Chromie Time and scale everything to level 70. because by then we will all be level 80 and it won't matter

[Vertegras]

Shadowlands didn't allow you to pick your zone on your first character. You started in The Maw -> Bastion -> Maldraxxus -> Ardenweald -> Revendreth -> The Maw.

You were able to unlock the Threads of Fate afterwards which meant any following alt could pick their zone and do non-campaign quests + bonus objectives. Which honestly wasn't as good as either or because it was disjointed. Legion and BFA had relatively self-contained stories that were connected by another story over top.

[Venziir]

WoD was the last expansion to have a linear questing experience before DF. Legion, BFA and SL (while it was current) all allowed you to pick what zone you wanted to level as regardless of order, story content was confined to the zone you were in.

Every expansion up to and including WoD had linear questing experiences. Blizz decided to try something different with Legion and it was so well received, they brought it back for BFA and while it was current, SL via Threads of Fate for Alts (Threads of Fate is going away with DF).

SL was linear as fuck - unless you chose Threads of Fate.

- - - Updated - - -

I know, that's why I added it at the end.

Not really, your post makes it seem as if scaled zones were a thing added in WoD, not post-WoD.

[ZhuNotRelated]

Hello! I am confused about something. I've just as of yesterday, came back after about 2 years gone. I wanted to see where Iam on getting the Allied Races available. It's incredible confusing so I'm trying to track the quests. For Mechagnome, I need to be level 60 to start the chain that recruits them? Why level 60? Isn't that Shadowlands? Mechagnomes are BFA?

Fuck I thought you wanted to suggest The Lost Ones (draenei subrace) to become playable as an allied race XDXDXDXD

[Eurhetemec]

WoD leveling was definitely better than SL. I had a good time exploring the zones. IMO, WoD had some of the best zones we've ever gotten. If not the best, then they're certainly the last good zones and leveling experience that we've gotten.

After WoD, they really shifted the zones to feeling like a theme park. The way zones existed prior was that they really tried to make them feel alive, big, and open.

This tells us a lot more about you, and when you started playing, than it does about WoW, frankly.

WoW has always been a theme-park MMO. Literally from day 1. Shit we were discussing it back in open beta before the game even came out. WoW was drastically more linear and theme-park-y than other MMOs of the era. It was also a lot more accessible, though.

The idea that WoD was the last non-theme-park expansion is laughable. There might be some potential argument if you used WotLK as your example, though obviously it's kind of funny because WoW is always a theme park, but certainly by the time of Cataclysm, any real sense of "exploring the world" as opposed to "being told a story" was gone. The idea that there's some huge distinction between SL leveling and WoD leveling, having done both in the last year (unlike you), is just a bad joke. They're both extremely linear, but SL has a much cleaner quest-flow. Both feel extremely distinct from the WotLK-and-earlier formula.

[Schizoide]

Surprised they increased the level requirement to 60 to start one.

On the bright side, the heirloom armor sets are still awarded at 50.

[Hctaz]

This tells us a lot more about you, and when you started playing, than it does about WoW, frankly.

I mean, does it?

WoW has always been a theme-park MMO. Literally from day 1. Shit we were discussing it back in open beta before the game even came out. WoW was drastically more linear and theme-park-y than other MMOs of the era. It was also a lot more accessible, though.

The idea that WoD was the last non-theme-park expansion is laughable. There might be some potential argument if you used WotLK as your example, though obviously it's kind of funny because WoW is always a theme park, but certainly by the time of Cataclysm, any real sense of "exploring the world" as opposed to "being told a story" was gone. The idea that there's some huge distinction between SL leveling and WoD leveling, having done both in the last year (unlike you), is just a bad joke. They're both extremely linear, but SL has a much cleaner quest-flow. Both feel extremely distinct from the WotLK-and-earlier formula.

I honestly have zero idea what you're referencing. The fact that you had quests in the world that told you to go out and slay some random mobs so you knew where to farm?

That's "theme parky" to you?

I'm also referring to the structure of the zones in particular. The zones in WoD weren't designed 100% to be used for *something*
There's nothing in Legion and beyond that feels like the developers tried to make the zones and the world feel like a world.

Every single thing is designed to be part of a quest or a world quest first before it's put into the game instead of the other way around, and that's the point.


You might think Vanilla was a theme park, but those quests telling you to go slay some Furbolgs out in the woods were put in after the world was designed: They made the world *first* and then made a quest that gave you a hint on where to go to kill a certain type of mob. That's pretty much how the questing experience worked for a while, and continued to do so even when they were telling big narrative stories.

Even Cataclysm has clear examples: Hyjal as a zone was made WELL before the Cata expansion. It was pretty much intact in its final form only missing buildings and other things even in Vanilla WoW. They didn't craft the zone around the questing experience and the story, they crafted the questing experience and the story around the zone.

This definitely doesn't happen today.

[Eurhetemec]

I mean, does it?

Yes, it says you relatively speaking, you came late to MMOs, and don't understand MMO history, but have strong and ill-formed opinions about something you don't understand.

I honestly have zero idea what you're referencing. The fact that you had quests in the world that told you to go out and slay some random mobs so you knew where to farm?

That's "theme parky" to you?

I'm also referring to the structure of the zones in particular. The zones in WoD weren't designed 100% to be used for *something*
There's nothing in Legion and beyond that feels like the developers tried to make the zones and the world feel like a world.

Every single thing is designed to be part of a quest or a world quest first before it's put into the game instead of the other way around, and that's the point.


You might think Vanilla was a theme park, but those quests telling you to go slay some Furbolgs out in the woods were put in after the world was designed: They made the world *first* and then made a quest that gave you a hint on where to go to kill a certain type of mob. That's pretty much how the questing experience worked for a while, and continued to do so even when they were telling big narrative stories.

Even Cataclysm has clear examples: Hyjal as a zone was made WELL before the Cata expansion. It was pretty much intact in its final form only missing buildings and other things even in Vanilla WoW. They didn't craft the zone around the questing experience and the story, they crafted the questing experience and the story around the zone.

This definitely doesn't happen today.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid.

The term "theme park" in regard to MMOs has a specific meaning. You seem to have half-picked that up and then profoundly misunderstood it. WoW is a "theme park" MMO. It is the definitive "theme park" MMO. This is as opposed to more "sandbox"-y MMOs. Full sandboxes were stuff like Ultima Online or early Star Wars Galaxies (not to be confused with SWTOR). Stuff like EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot was in-between that and where WoW ultimately came out, in that, you had more "guidance" and fewer options on what to do, but stuff was still pretty wide open. WoW created the true theme-park MMO by having quest-chains filling entire zones, and pulling you along through the levelling process in this extremely (relatively speaking) guided way.

So yes, absolutely that's a theme park. Definitionally, that's a theme park. If you type "theme park mmo" into Google, you'll get tons of stuff on this, and WoW is the classic example of the theme park MMO.

I know this because I've been playing MMOs since UO, and the big discussion around WoW when it came out was how it was a particularly theme-park-y theme-park, and that it was kind of "for babies" compared to MMOs like EQ or DAoC (I didn't entirely hold with that, but that was the discussion).

As for WoD vs. Legion, it's just nonsense. There's no real design difference except in that Legion is a lot more competently designed. They're equally meant to be a "world", which is to say, like all WoW zones - not very much.

As for Hyjal - that's absolute gibberish. When did you even start playing? Hyjal the Cataclysm zone has almost nothing to do with Hyjal the pre-Cataclysm area. Indeed the quests are bizarre and messy and could almost be set anywhere in many cases.

[Segus1992]

wow! content that can be bypassed with the timeless island trick instantly negates all the great leveling WoD had!!!! WOW I SAY !!!!!!!

It can be skipped but shouldn't as it's one of the best questing areas in the game if speed is your goal.

[Utrrabbit]

Weird but if it's any consolation, Dracthyr are level 60 after you finish their starting experience.

I'm not surprised to hear SL is the new WoD: A Leveling Experience no one wants to do more than once if they don't have to.

Allied Race Unlock Quests were 50. No idea why they upscaled it to 60. Makes no sense to do that. LF Draenei was painful to do and more so knowing it was glitched when I did it.

WoD was a very good leveling experience and has been the go to for fast leveling. It was the fact that iit had nothing to do at end game that people did not like.

[Hctaz]

Yes, it says you relatively speaking, you came late to MMOs, and don't understand MMO history, but have strong and ill-formed opinions about something you don't understand.



You literally have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid.

The term "theme park" in regard to MMOs has a specific meaning. You seem to have half-picked that up and then profoundly misunderstood it. WoW is a "theme park" MMO. It is the definitive "theme park" MMO. This is as opposed to more "sandbox"-y MMOs. Full sandboxes were stuff like Ultima Online or early Star Wars Galaxies (not to be confused with SWTOR). Stuff like EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot was in-between that and where WoW ultimately came out, in that, you had more "guidance" and fewer options on what to do, but stuff was still pretty wide open. WoW created the true theme-park MMO by having quest-chains filling entire zones, and pulling you along through the levelling process in this extremely (relatively speaking) guided way.

So yes, absolutely that's a theme park. Definitionally, that's a theme park. If you type "theme park mmo" into Google, you'll get tons of stuff on this, and WoW is the classic example of the theme park MMO.

I know this because I've been playing MMOs since UO, and the big discussion around WoW when it came out was how it was a particularly theme-park-y theme-park, and that it was kind of "for babies" compared to MMOs like EQ or DAoC (I didn't entirely hold with that, but that was the discussion).

As for WoD vs. Legion, it's just nonsense. There's no real design difference except in that Legion is a lot more competently designed. They're equally meant to be a "world", which is to say, like all WoW zones - not very much.

As for Hyjal - that's absolute gibberish. When did you even start playing? Hyjal the Cataclysm zone has almost nothing to do with Hyjal the pre-Cataclysm area. Indeed the quests are bizarre and messy and could almost be set anywhere in many cases.

No, you have no idea what I'M talking about, I'm afraid.

I am specifically referring to the way that zones are designed, not necessarily the way that players interact with them (but I'll get into that as well because Legion absolutely changed this).

The zone layout prior to Legion was world first, fill it with things to do second. That's my point with Vanilla questing: It wasn't designed to specifically provide you with one type of experience and with one overarching narrative.

The quests in Vanilla were literally designed as a way to get players to explore certain parts of the zones they might otherwise not have, and to show players where the good mob grinding spots were. You can look that up. It comes straight from the devs mouths when looking at why questing was even implemented in the first place.

The zones were made first, and then the things to do inside of the zones were made second.

That was why I brought Hyjal into this: The layout of the zone was made all the way back in Vanilla WoW and kept basically identical in layout throughout the entire time. They made the ZONE FIRST, and then filled it with things to do LATER.

That's a very different feeling to Legion where the zones were clearly made only with things to do in mind. Plenty of people have talked about this in the past. There's no random, "We put a mountain here because it was cool, and then we filled the mountain with stuff to do," they made the mountain part of the integral questing experience.

The random cave off to the side? That's a world quest. You want to farm stuff in the open world? You gotta do the specific world quests. You can't just go out and interact with the world on your own whim, you have to interact with the world quests that we designed. Everything was designed to be small, compact, and have a very specific purpose in Legion onward. It doesn't feel like a world you can actually live in, you must abide by the timers set in place by the developers. World quests, weekly/daily/whatever resets on farming things.

[Triceron]

Each zone in WoD did have a specific narrative that they were trying to tell, but it still felt like you were kinda just going around helping people. "I know I'm supposed to be dealing with the Iron Horde, but this village of Orcs out here needs help with their infestation problem. I'll go focus on them for a bit." Like there were things OUTSIDE of the main story line that you could do to level, and sometimes needed to do to level as the main story line wouldn't level you up enough to get to the next zone.

A damn shame for ShadowLands since the whole afterlife setting is ripe to explore all sorts of side stories.

[NineSpine]

I mean, does it?



I honestly have zero idea what you're referencing. The fact that you had quests in the world that told you to go out and slay some random mobs so you knew where to farm?

That's "theme parky" to you?

I'm also referring to the structure of the zones in particular. The zones in WoD weren't designed 100% to be used for *something*
There's nothing in Legion and beyond that feels like the developers tried to make the zones and the world feel like a world.

Every single thing is designed to be part of a quest or a world quest first before it's put into the game instead of the other way around, and that's the point.


You might think Vanilla was a theme park, but those quests telling you to go slay some Furbolgs out in the woods were put in after the world was designed: They made the world *first* and then made a quest that gave you a hint on where to go to kill a certain type of mob. That's pretty much how the questing experience worked for a while, and continued to do so even when they were telling big narrative stories.

Even Cataclysm has clear examples: Hyjal as a zone was made WELL before the Cata expansion. It was pretty much intact in its final form only missing buildings and other things even in Vanilla WoW. They didn't craft the zone around the questing experience and the story, they crafted the questing experience and the story around the zone.

This definitely doesn't happen today.

You are 100% correct. The issue here is that these other folks are being pedantic because "theme park" is a term with a very specific meaning in MMOs and wow has been considered a "theme park mmo" since day one. Putting aside that very specific definition, and using "theme park" in a more colloquial way, you are right. A lot of these guys are also people that don't like to admit that the design of the game changed in any way not for the better.

[Hctaz]

You are 100% correct. The issue here is that these other folks are being pedantic because "theme park" is a term with a very specific meaning in MMOs and wow has been considered a "theme park mmo" since day one. Putting aside that very specific definition, and using "theme park" in a more colloquial way, you are right. A lot of these guys are also people that don't like to admit that the design of the game changed in any way not for the better.

I mean, I can totally see how the definition of a themepark versus sandbox MMO is at play here, but I definitely agree people are being pedantic and missing the point I'm trying to make.

There's a difference between pre-Legion and post-Legion content in terms of how much of a theme park we're in.

I dunno I guess maybe comparing it to an on-rails experience like an African Safari versus going to Disney World makes more sense?
You're on a guided tour in Africa, but everything you see is real. Like... the stuff was there before people turned it into a Safari tour adventure.

Disney World is fake as shit with everything being cultivated to give you specific feelings even down to them purposefully releasing certain smells in the air. Everything there has a specific purpose.



I dunno if that makes any more sense than what I was saying before lol