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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by ercarp View Post
    Please explain to me how I'm going to farm herbs with a goddamn flight path.
    Casul moment

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You really lack logic, don't you? His entire argument is about not removing things, i.e., not limiting players... yet here you are, completely misrepresenting his argument by making a strawman that claims that he wants stuff to be removed from the game.
    It is actually - thats the part of his post where he says "Limiting players is is NOT a healthy thiing for the game.". Games are about overcoming hurdles - and thats what he refers to as limiting players. IE - he wants literally all the hurdles/content removed so he can get the rewards more easily.

    "Well, I'm forced to waste time to head to a safe zone (usually a settlement)"
    Its no wonder you feel like you are wasting your time if you head to settlements every time something distracts you for a minute. All you have to do is move 20 yards away from mobs and then wont aggro on to you.

    "Your inability or unwillingness to properly understand the argument does not mean it's "weak" or a "non-issue"

    Your argument is very simply - its just not very good. Wow is meant to have a challenging open world and an mmo is meant to be a living world that has concequences if you dont react to it. There are safe zones - like you said- like cities/towns/settlements and so forth, which is where you should go if you wish to afk. The idea with flying has never been to make a free 3 seconds afk button. While it may inconvenience you its also one of the things that completely breaks immersion in many ways.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    One of the more inane takes I've seen recently.

    The whole point is that people want to do the thing they enjoy most, and not do the things they enjoy less but have to do in order to do what they like. You going "hurr durr what if you just got loot tho!" completely misses that point, as you're removing the FUN parts, not the tedious parts. It's not even a strawman, it's just a demonstration of your completely inability to comprehend the most basic argument here - or, if I was interpreting this more maliciously, your intentional attempt at derailing this argument by proposing something comically absurd, because you know you can't offer a proper defeater.

    I'm glad you and many other people enjoy dragon-riding. I really am. It's just that there's also people who DON'T enjoy it, and no amount of rolling your eyes going "honestly, you must have never tried it" because you lack the empathy required to even conceive of the possibility that people may not like things you like is going to change that.
    It’s not, there are correlations that exist outside of traversal that still have related core philosophies of design.

    Take that exact same argument and apply it to any other aspect of the game and it immediately falls apart. So why does traversal, which is arguably the most important mechanic of an open world adventure game disregarded. Doesn’t quite add up to me.

    I don’t really have to make any arguments since anyone defending it has failed to make any valid point other than “it’s convenient, and allows me to easily disengage with the game”. When you boil everything down that’s all you guys are arguing. And personally, I don’t think that’s a valid or strong enough point to stand on, and is frankly a bit daft.
    Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 05:50 PM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    When you boil everything down that’s all you guys are arguing.
    That's what I said, you are unable to even comprehend the absolute basic tenets of the argument being made, instead rephrasing it wishy-washy into obvious nonsense, that you can then point to and say "that's obvious nonsense".

    QED, I guess, you've demonstrated your own ineptitude quite beautifully

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's what I said, you are unable to even comprehend the absolute basic tenets of the argument being made, instead rephrasing it wishy-washy into obvious nonsense, that you can then point to and say "that's obvious nonsense".

    QED, I guess, you've demonstrated your own ineptitude quite beautifully

    • Allows user to hover in mid-air while AFK to safely disengage with the game world.

    • Allows user to disregard level design, bypassing terrain and encounter challenges.

    • Allows user to gather resources unchallenged.

    • Actively encourages players to disengage from the game by providing an easy way to afk while traveling from anywhere in the game.


    What more is there to really say? These aren’t my points, this is what others argue in favor of.

    Any game designer will look at that and go, yea these systems are broken if this is how players engage with them and it’s not a healthy thing.
    Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 06:00 PM.

  6. #166
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    It is actually - thats the part of his post where he says "Limiting players is is NOT a healthy thiing for the game.". Games are about overcoming hurdles - and thats what he refers to as limiting players. IE - he wants literally all the hurdles/content removed so he can get the rewards more easily.
    Completely wrong on all accounts. A limit in a game is not a hurdle. It's an unmovable barrier. If Blizzard, for example, limits your run speed to 150%, that isn't a hurdle. That's an unmovable barrier. Because no matter what you do, you're not going faster than 150% speed.

    "Well, I'm forced to waste time to head to a safe zone (usually a settlement)"
    Its no wonder you feel like you are wasting your time if you head to settlements every time something distracts you for a minute.
    Yeah, because god forbid not wanting your character to die every time you're forced to pry your attention away from the game, right? (/sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

    Your argument is very simply - its just not very good.
    No, it's a fair argument, where I explain the reasons why I prefer the old method. Keyword: reasons. Plural. You just decided to focus on a single one and decided that was my "only argument.

    Wow is meant to have a challenging open world
    ... That's a laugh. WoW? The same game in which Blizzard removed all the elite mobs that used to surround the entrance to dungeon and raid instances and at best replace them with normal mobs? The same WoW in which Blizzard that has now severely reduced the rez sickness debuff timer you get when you rez by the Spirit Healer?

    There are safe zones - like you said- like cities/towns/settlements and so forth, which is where you should go if you wish to afk. The idea with flying has never been to make a free 3 seconds afk button. While it may inconvenience you its also one of the things that completely breaks immersion in many ways.
    And you're free to keep your precious immersions and use a ground mount to run back to the nearest settlement before you can go AFK or risk being killed before you return to your computer. I'll keep my convenience of nothing having to wait minutes before I can finally pull away from the computer for a minute or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    • Allows user to hover in mid-air while AFK to safely disengage with the game world.
    So you're saying that being able to safely AFK is a bad thing, because heavens forbid you need to take care of something while playing - you should get killed for that, that's somehow "good" design. You know what people would do? Log out. And back in again. You're not changing anything about the design, you're just making things more inconvenient to achieve the exact same result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    • Allows user to disregard level design, bypassing terrain and encounter challenges.
    First off, that doesn't have to be a bad thing - jumping puzzles etc. should be for people who enjoy doing that kind of thing. The existence of flying changes nothing about that, because people who enjoy that kind of thing can still do it the exact same way. If they CHOOSE not to, then it wasn't all that fun to begin with, was it, and you only had people do it because you forced them to. THAT should be the part remedied, not nixing entire systems with massively reaching ramifications just to address this specific, niche problem.
    Also: dragon-riding allows you to bypass terrain and level design, too. So it's a moot point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    • Allows user to gather resources unchallenged.
    Literally only true for Druid flight form. You picked a specific, incredibly narrow example that somehow justified generalized change - rather than, say, just making it so Druids can't gather in shapeshift form (like they already can't when e.g. mining). Also, making resource grinds easier is not a bad thing. Being "challenged" while resource gathering is an annoyance, not a bottleneck; if anything, this is worse for the average player because it makes it even harder to compete with professional farmers, who already have massively higher gathering efficiency that'd be barely impacted by a change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    • Actively encourages players to disengage from the game by providing an easy way to afk while traveling from anywhere in the game.
    Just like every form of fast travel. That you bring this up only reinforces my earlier point: you don't understand what people are saying. They don't want to "disengage from the game", they want to minimize engaging with the parts of the game THAT DON'T INTEREST THEM and maximize engaging with the parts that do. I want to go do quests and do dungeons - I don't want to spend X minutes in between, doing nothing but pray it's over soon and I can get back to doing what I came here to do. Somehow construing this as though it was added value is downright offensive, because it belittled people who hate the filler content by suggesting they should just man up and enjoy it. This is WHY fast travel exists, by the way. Where is this argument when it comes to Mage portals, ships and blimps, heck, friggin' flight masters? Somehow those are okay and totally fine, but afk on a flying mount is the devil's work you do purely to give the middle finger to a lovingly crafted world waiting to warmly embrace you? Ridiculous.

    Did you even think for two minutes before rattling off these stereotype arguments, or did you simply parrot them from somewhere with zero reflection?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    So you're saying that being able to safely AFK is a bad thing, because heavens forbid you need to take care of something while playing - you should get killed for that, that's somehow "good" design. You know what people would do? Log out. And back in again. You're not changing anything about the design, you're just making things more inconvenient to achieve the exact same result.
    It is, because it undermines any sort of presence in the world space. You in a dangerous area? Just type in /noclip and you can hover out of harms way. Why is this behavior not okay in other games and considered cheating in some, but with WoW it gets a pass?

    Honestly, I’d be much more okay with them removing the 20 second timer to logout if you’re not in War Mode. I don’t see any reason for it to exist as it’s original function was to prevent players from combat logging during the classic era. If they did that, it would easily resolve this problem you have in a way that doesn’t invalidate level design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    First off, that doesn't have to be a bad thing - jumping puzzles etc. should be for people who enjoy doing that kind of thing. The existence of flying changes nothing about that, because people who enjoy that kind of thing can still do it the exact same way. If they CHOOSE not to, then it wasn't all that fun to begin with, was it, and you only had people do it because you forced them to. THAT should be the part remedied, not nixing entire systems with massively reaching ramifications just to address this specific, niche problem.
    Also: dragon-riding allows you to bypass terrain and level design, too. So it's a moot point here.
    I just have to point to Zereth Mortis as to why thats a naive take. They did ship with jumping puzzles, and what did the majority of players do? Wait until flying was implemented to trivialize the content for easy rewards. Now you might say “that’s okay, it’s just lame jumping puzzles for trivial rewards”, but it absolutely kills any potential that could be had with jumping puzzles. You can look at Guild Wars 2 for how elaborate and expansive theirs are.

    Dragonflying also doesn’t invalidate level design because the world is designed for it. There are areas you can not access unless you explore and level up your flying skill. This is fantastic design.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Literally only true for Druid flight form. You picked a specific, incredibly narrow example that somehow justified generalized change - rather than, say, just making it so Druids can't gather in shapeshift form (like they already can't when e.g. mining). Also, making resource grinds easier is not a bad thing. Being "challenged" while resource gathering is an annoyance, not a bottleneck; if anything, this is worse for the average player because it makes it even harder to compete with professional farmers, who already have massively higher gathering efficiency that'd be barely impacted by a change.
    Skygolem. So it isn’t just druids. Despite your long tangent, my point still stands. You also need some resources that are hard to acquire in order to promote a healthy trading economy. Acquisition rate heavily factors in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Just like every form of fast travel. That you bring this up only reinforces my earlier point: you don't understand what people are saying. They don't want to "disengage from the game", they want to minimize engaging with the parts of the game THAT DON'T INTEREST THEM and maximize engaging with the parts that do. I want to go do quests and do dungeons - I don't want to spend X minutes in between, doing nothing but pray it's over soon and I can get back to doing what I came here to do. Somehow construing this as though it was added value is downright offensive, because it belittled people who hate the filler content by suggesting they should just man up and enjoy it. This is WHY fast travel exists, by the way. Where is this argument when it comes to Mage portals, ships and blimps, heck, friggin' flight masters? Somehow those are okay and totally fine, but afk on a flying mount is the devil's work you do purely to give the middle finger to a lovingly crafted world waiting to warmly embrace you? Ridiculous.
    It’s kind of funny how you don’t understand the difference here, how everything you listed is balanced against each other. Those alternate forms of travel “ball-park” you to the areas you want to go to, but you still have to explore and navigate the space to get where you need to go. They are all balanced and immersive in their own ways.

    In regards to fast travel. In my opinion, I regard fast travel as a failure of game design. Take a game like Spider-Man. That game has fast travel in it, but you never find anyone using it because simply navigating the world space is fun using the traversal mechanics offered. Sunset Overdrive, Mad Max, Dying Light are others that all understood this. On the other side, games that aren’t as reliant on fun traversal methods lean into dynamic gameplay to make exploring worthwhile. Skyrim, Fallout, and Red Dead Redemption, come to mind here where you find yourself wandering across strangers and encounters that make exploring interesting.

    The problem with WoW is that it does neither well. It doesn’t have dynamic events that unfold in the world as you explore, and it doesn’t have a fun engaging traversal system.

    Blizzard seems to understand that you can’t quite have a dynamic online world, but you can have a fun traversal system. And they’re leaning into that for Dragonflight, pretty successfully too.
    Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 08:13 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    It is, because it undermines any sort of presence in the world space.
    You're not listening. This doesn't magically create more engagement with the "world space", it only creates inconvenience for people who would afk no matter what. Their behavior doesn't change, you're just putting up hurdles that annoy them, while creating no actual benefit. So now I log out when I go take a shit, instead of afk-ing in the air. Cool. I feel so much more engaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    I just have to point to Zereth Mortis as to why thats a naive take. They did ship with jumping puzzles, and what did the majority of players do? Wait until flying was implemented to trivialize the content for easy rewards. Now you might say “that’s okay, it’s just lame jumping puzzles for trivial rewards”, but it absolutely kills any potential that could be had with jumping puzzles.
    So your argument is "okay you're right, BUUUUUT if things were different, you wouldn't be right, so really, you're wrong!". Mmm-hmm. I do agree, though: if things WERE different, I'd have to make a different argument. They're, uh, not different, though. *cough*

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    Dragonflying also doesn’t invalidate level design because the world is designed for it.
    Right. And if we designed a world with regular flying in mind, that would defuse your entire argument, then? Not to mention that you're ALSO implicitly arguing dragon-riding shouldn't be allowed in a world not designed for it (which is what this thread is about), which I'm not sure is a point you're actually trying to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    There are areas you can not access unless you explore and level up your flying skill. This is fantastic design.
    So your barrier to entry is "spend 1.5 hours leveling your flying, once, for your entire account"? So if we add some kind of similar gate to regular flying, it'd be cool, yes? Because that's how dragon-riding works now, remember. It's no longer some kind of progressive unlock over long periods of time - as soon as you get it, you can go and max it out in very little time. And you never ever have to do it again on your account, ever. If that's all it takes for you to feel like you're progressing through "fantastic design", I guess the bar isn't very high for that kind of verdict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    Skygolem. So it isn’t just druids. Despite your long tangent, my point still stands.
    So your argument went from "Druids can skip everything while gathering" to "Druids and people with Skygolem can skip things while gathering herbs specifically", and that somehow means it's enough of an argument to invalidate an entire mechanic for everyone in the game? Because Druids and <1% of players can be SLIGHTLY more efficient while doing specifically herbalism? Riiiiight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    You also need some resources that are hard to acquire in order to promote a healthy trading economy. Acquisition rate heavily factors in here.
    But this changes practically nothing about it, and in fact changes it only in BAD ways because it further advantages the professional farmers, who can better leverage their efficiency. You're making the average player less likely to farm on their own, giving more power to organized farming rings, and overall HURTING the economy rather than helping it. Also, the whole "some things should be hard to get" is a blatant strawman, because none of the ACTUAL bottleneck goods would be impacted by this in any way. Gathered herbs and ore are not the limiting factor. Special reagents are. There's no fire under all that smoke you're blowing, because it's somewhere else entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    It’s kind of funny how you don’t understand the difference here, how everything you listed is balanced against each other. Those alternate forms of travel “ball-park” you to the areas you want to go to, but you still have to explore and navigate the space to get where you need to go. They are all balanced and immersive in their own ways.
    And why is flying not? You can just SAY "those are immersive, but flying is not!" but you need to, uh, prove that, first? How is you having your personal dragon or whatever that can get you where you want LESS immersive than hiring a flight master to put you on a dragon to go where they want? Doesn't that create MORE engagement rather than less, by giving you the freedom to explore where you want, rather than where they let you?

    It's fine if you're arguing that YOU find it less immersive; that's cool. No one is forcing you to use the system. But you not liking it and having the option not to use it is very different from you not liking it and wanting EVERYONE not to have the option to use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilrox View Post
    In regards to fast travel. In my opinion, I regard fast travel as a failure of game design. Take a game like Spider-Man. That game has fast travel in it, but you never find anyone using it because simply navigating the world space is fun using the traversal mechanics offered.
    Cool. I'm glad you agree that it's better to have something and choose not to use it, than to take it away from everyone including people who do want to use it. And that if something is fun enough, people will do it even if they can skip it; so we can leave the skip in for those who don't find it fun, without hurting the people who do.

    Excellent way to argue my point, much obliged!

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And you're free to keep your precious immersions and use a ground mount to run back to the nearest settlement before you can go AFK or risk being killed before you return to your computer. I'll keep my convenience of nothing having to wait minutes before I can finally pull away from the computer for a minute or two.
    What kind of nerd plays a game in a fantasy world to get engrossed in that fantasy world? I'm sure glad that we have a game that doesn't force you to do things like "play the game" or "get involved with the world and mechanics".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... That's a laugh. WoW? The same game in which Blizzard removed all the elite mobs that used to surround the entrance to dungeon and raid instances and at best replace them with normal mobs? The same WoW in which Blizzard that has now severely reduced the rez sickness debuff timer you get when you rez by the Spirit Healer?
    Yes, because that was such a good thing for the direction of WoW. It's a good thing that we haven't seen them walk back on certain changes such as, say, reversing the simplification of talent trees. Everybody knows that simplifying talent trees was a great idea that Blizzard would never reverse.

  11. #171
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    What kind of nerd plays a game in a fantasy world to get engrossed in that fantasy world? I'm sure glad that we have a game that doesn't force you to do things like "play the game" or "get involved with the world and mechanics".
    Congratulations for not only making a bad strawman but also completely missing the point of the argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Sugani View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/SGi3Y6D

    This is how it feels on live now after finally trying the Soar ability, even as just a simplified version it immediately made me hate coming back to normal flying. I can not wait until Dragonflight comes out just so I can spend time flying around, it's so refreshing. I swear, this better become evergreen and the start of 'mount classes' in Warcraft just like how they have a variety of 'mount classes' in Guild Wars 2.

    I really hope that by the end of this expansion, all of the Dragon, Pterrordax, Gryphons, Wyrms, and Protos have their animations retargeted so they can be integrated into the new flight system. Then over the next few expansions, they should slowly come up with other 'mount classes' for mounts that don't fit in those previously mentioned classes. I'd love to see all sorts of new methods of traveling.

    Dragonflying is probably the single most refreshing updated mechanic WoW has received since launch and I hope it does to travel what Mythic+ did for dungeons.
    To early to judge. But a system like this for all new expansion flying until fly patch hits...hell yeah.

    I always hated the flying from patch x.0 but also found flying from patch x.2 ( or 3) to late. Think this is a happy medium.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    My beef is with this arrogant claim that this feature should replace the basic flying feature and completely remove it from the game. That I'm not okay with.
    I mean if dragon riding is as popular as predicted and widely loved by most, it being implemented is going to be a "get with the times" kind of moment for people who don't enjoy it. If dragon riding is successful enough to warrant an evergreen system then it's kind of "sorry not sorry" for those who disagree I think. I'm not saying you should change your mind and love it; I'm saying if successful enough you not loving it won't matter.

  14. #174
    It should be evergreen.

    But it shouldn't replace normal flying any more than ground mounts should be replaced entirely by flying. There is room for any and all types of travel. Let the players choose.

  15. #175
    Is dragon riding fun? Sure, should it replace other flying mounts? Absolutely not. They've already said they have zero plans to ever do that anyway, no point in even talking about it.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Congratulations for not only making a bad strawman but also completely missing the point of the argument.
    "You're free to keep your precious immersion . . . I'll keep my convenience"

    "You're making a strawman by saying that I'm undermining immersion for convenience."

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And I will be playing the game, having fun and doing what I want to do once I reach my destination. You know what I don't want to do? Play "medieval flight simulator".


    And what you fail to realize is that I do not think the dragonriding mechanic is fun. How many times do I need to repeat "I'm not here to play flight simulator games" before you understand that simple fact? Hence why I don't want it to replace the baseline flight mechanic. "Fun" is fucking subjective.

    - - - Updated - - -


    If you ignore everything, it's easy to claim there's no argument. FFS.

    It would be much easier, simpler and faster to just fly upwards and stay in mid-air rather than move around a mob-filled zone and hope the spot I picked has zero patrols or spawns within aggro range.
    Just ignore them, they can't take a different opinion that is blatantly obvious, every thought out answer you give them is basically retorted with "na ah" or "you're wrong because my opinion is the only right one"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    I mean if dragon riding is as popular as predicted and widely loved by most, it being implemented is going to be a "get with the times" kind of moment for people who don't enjoy it. If dragon riding is successful enough to warrant an evergreen system then it's kind of "sorry not sorry" for those who disagree I think. I'm not saying you should change your mind and love it; I'm saying if successful enough you not loving it won't matter.
    Luckily they have already said it's not happening and luckily a lot of people don't seem to like it. So we should all be safe from having terrible dragon flight simulator permanently added.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're not listening. This doesn't magically create more engagement with the "world space", it only creates inconvenience for people who would afk no matter what. Their behavior doesn't change, you're just putting up hurdles that annoy them, while creating no actual benefit. So now I log out when I go take a shit, instead of afk-ing in the air. Cool. I feel so much more engaged.


    So your argument is "okay you're right, BUUUUUT if things were different, you wouldn't be right, so really, you're wrong!". Mmm-hmm. I do agree, though: if things WERE different, I'd have to make a different argument. They're, uh, not different, though. *cough*


    Right. And if we designed a world with regular flying in mind, that would defuse your entire argument, then? Not to mention that you're ALSO implicitly arguing dragon-riding shouldn't be allowed in a world not designed for it (which is what this thread is about), which I'm not sure is a point you're actually trying to make.


    So your barrier to entry is "spend 1.5 hours leveling your flying, once, for your entire account"? So if we add some kind of similar gate to regular flying, it'd be cool, yes? Because that's how dragon-riding works now, remember. It's no longer some kind of progressive unlock over long periods of time - as soon as you get it, you can go and max it out in very little time. And you never ever have to do it again on your account, ever. If that's all it takes for you to feel like you're progressing through "fantastic design", I guess the bar isn't very high for that kind of verdict.


    So your argument went from "Druids can skip everything while gathering" to "Druids and people with Skygolem can skip things while gathering herbs specifically", and that somehow means it's enough of an argument to invalidate an entire mechanic for everyone in the game? Because Druids and <1% of players can be SLIGHTLY more efficient while doing specifically herbalism? Riiiiight.


    But this changes practically nothing about it, and in fact changes it only in BAD ways because it further advantages the professional farmers, who can better leverage their efficiency. You're making the average player less likely to farm on their own, giving more power to organized farming rings, and overall HURTING the economy rather than helping it. Also, the whole "some things should be hard to get" is a blatant strawman, because none of the ACTUAL bottleneck goods would be impacted by this in any way. Gathered herbs and ore are not the limiting factor. Special reagents are. There's no fire under all that smoke you're blowing, because it's somewhere else entirely.


    And why is flying not? You can just SAY "those are immersive, but flying is not!" but you need to, uh, prove that, first? How is you having your personal dragon or whatever that can get you where you want LESS immersive than hiring a flight master to put you on a dragon to go where they want? Doesn't that create MORE engagement rather than less, by giving you the freedom to explore where you want, rather than where they let you?

    It's fine if you're arguing that YOU find it less immersive; that's cool. No one is forcing you to use the system. But you not liking it and having the option not to use it is very different from you not liking it and wanting EVERYONE not to have the option to use it.


    Cool. I'm glad you agree that it's better to have something and choose not to use it, than to take it away from everyone including people who do want to use it. And that if something is fun enough, people will do it even if they can skip it; so we can leave the skip in for those who don't find it fun, without hurting the people who do.

    Excellent way to argue my point, much obliged!
    You basically hard locked all their points but I imagine they have some more hyperbolic strawmen tucked away ready to go

  18. #178
    Strongly disagree. I like dragonflight, and it has its uses being faster, but I want traditional flying also.

  19. #179
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    "You're free to keep your precious immersion . . . I'll keep my convenience"

    "You're making a strawman by saying that I'm undermining immersion for convenience."
    I'm not undermining your immersion for my convenience.

    The whole point of my arguments is me saying that I don't want the original flight feature to be removed from the game. I have no problem whatsoever with both coexisting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kretan View Post
    I mean if dragon riding is as popular as predicted and widely loved by most, it being implemented is going to be a "get with the times" kind of moment for people who don't enjoy it.
    No. No, it's not. At best, it means the mechanic will last longer than Dragonflight, and co-exist alongside the original flight feature. Removing the original flight feature brings zero benefits, and on top of that brings at least a few issues. So overall a net negative.

    If dragon riding is successful enough to warrant an evergreen system then it's kind of "sorry not sorry" for those who disagree I think. I'm not saying you should change your mind and love it; I'm saying if successful enough you not loving it won't matter.
    It's never going to happen. Dragonriding is not going to replace the original flight feature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're not listening. This doesn't magically create more engagement with the "world space", it only creates inconvenience for people who would afk no matter what. Their behavior doesn't change, you're just putting up hurdles that annoy them, while creating no actual benefit. So now I log out when I go take a shit, instead of afk-ing in the air. Cool. I feel so much more engaged.
    Yes. That’s literally the point. This is what I wrote: “You in a dangerous area? Just type in /noclip and you can hover out of harm's way.” You can not make a threatening zone if you can fly up and out at any moment. This is why no flying in the Maw for Shadowlands was so effective. The only outlier that comes to mind is Icecrown, which was primarily due to the zone being explicitly designed for flying. We’ll circle back to that point later.

    I suppose you misinterpreted my mentioning the 20-second timer being removed as focusing solely on /noclip AFK, but that wasn’t the intention. But I do believe that would resolve that issue you had. No one wants to wait 20 seconds to log out, not even me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    So your argument is "okay you're right, BUUUUUT if things were different, you wouldn't be right, so really, you're wrong!". Mmm-hmm. I do agree, though: if things WERE different, I'd have to make a different argument. They're, uh, not different, though. *cough*
    I’ll be honest; I don't know what this is. I suppose it’s about my 20-second timer statement? It’s not about “if things were different”; I’m simply saying I’d prefer to log out. Pressing one button to instantly disengage makes more sense. Granted, that’s a personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Right. And if we designed a world with regular flying in mind, that would defuse your entire argument, then? Not to mention that you're ALSO implicitly arguing dragon-riding shouldn't be allowed in a world not designed for it (which is what this thread is about), which I'm not sure is a point you're actually trying to make.
    Actually, yes, you’re exactly correct. This is why the level design in WOTLK was so effective. It was the first expansion designed specifically around flying, but we haven’t had level design like it since. Dragonflight is a return to form. Legacy flying would likely work well there, but Dragonflying better connects the player to the world in a far more immersive and engaging way. Furthermore, legacy flying and its mechanics also undermine a crucial component of what Dragonflying wants to bring to the table; the two are at odds with one another.

    Just as I’ve said earlier, I did change my stance from a previous post where I feel that legacy flying does have a place in the game, just not with any active expansion moving forward. It should be a legacy feature and something that should be allowed once an expansion ‘goes the distance.’ This is to give room to features similar to Dragonflying and expand the traversal systems in the game in new and fun directions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    So your barrier to entry is "spend 1.5 hours leveling your flying, once, for your entire account"? So if we add some kind of similar gate to regular flying, it'd be cool, yes? Because that's how dragon-riding works now, remember. It's no longer some kind of progressive unlock over long periods of time - as soon as you get it, you can go and max it out in very little time. And you never ever have to do it again on your account, ever. If that's all it takes for you to feel like you're progressing through "fantastic design", I guess the bar isn't very high for that kind of verdict.
    Again, absolutely, yes. It’s significantly better than the alternative that we have now, which was, in the past, spending copious amounts of gold just to be granted access. Or, the newer laundry lists of tasks you have to check off to be given later into an expansion as evidence that you’ve played the content.

    Now, with Dragonflight, I’m granted a basic form of flying with its own progression path. It’s going to feel fantastic to feel it get stronger. And while some players can sit and knock it out in an hour and a half. Others will explore and find tokens as they progress through the campaign and the various zones. Either way, we’re given agency on how to proceed, which is “fantastic design.”

    To go on a side tangent. What excites me about the progression system is it’s built in a similar way to the talent trees, so I don’t see any reason why this could be expanded in the future with new abilities granted to your mount. My pessimistic side knows that’s unlikely, but the potential is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    "So if we add some kind of similar gate to regular flying, it'd be cool, yes?”
    The critical difference is legacy flying does not have that progression system to facilitate a mechanically improved flying mount. And, it can’t facilitate one, simply put, it’s just too strong in its core design. I suppose you could argue why flying would even need that, but at the same time, why wouldn’t you want more game in your video game?

    I know we have mount equipment too, and it was an amusing concept, but ultimately I think it failed to leave a long-lasting impression and isn’t something I engage with all that much. Maybe others do, but I haven’t seen Blizzard push any new updates on that front, and players seem to pick one and forget based on the behavior I’ve discussed with guildmates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    So your argument went from "Druids can skip everything while gathering" to "Druids and people with Skygolem can skip things while gathering herbs specifically", and that somehow means it's enough of an argument to invalidate an entire mechanic for everyone in the game? Because Druids and <1% of players can be SLIGHTLY more efficient while doing specifically herbalism? Riiiiight.
    This one is somewhat on me as you weren’t here earlier in the thread where the druid/skygolem discussion was brought up; that’s where that bullet point specifically came from. I was always referring to both as any competent gatherer is more than likely using the skygolem if they aren’t already a druid. But the point still stands: those specific setups allow the user to gather unchallenged, breaking any aggro on NPCs by simply flying up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But this changes practically nothing about it, and in fact changes it only in BAD ways because it further advantages the professional farmers, who can better leverage their efficiency. You're making the average player less likely to farm on their own, giving more power to organized farming rings, and overall HURTING the economy rather than helping it. Also, the whole "some things should be hard to get" is a blatant strawman, because none of the ACTUAL bottleneck goods would be impacted by this in any way. Gathered herbs and ore are not the limiting factor. Special reagents are. There's no fire under all that smoke you're blowing, because it's somewhere else entirely.
    Thinking about it further, you're correct; between sharding, phases, and the like, there are no actual bottlenecks. This isn’t a game like EVE, where logistics come into play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    And why is flying not? You can just SAY "those are immersive, but flying is not!" but you need to, uh, prove that, first? How is you having your personal dragon or whatever that can get you where you want LESS immersive than hiring a flight master to put you on a dragon to go where they want? Doesn't that create MORE engagement rather than less, by giving you the freedom to explore where you want, rather than where they let you?

    It's fine if you're arguing that YOU find it less immersive; that's cool. No one is forcing you to use the system. But you not liking it and having the option not to use it is very different from you not liking it and wanting EVERYONE not to have the option to use it.
    It does, but it’s far too effective at doing it that it largely disconnects you from the game world. Simply put, it’s way too powerful at what it attempts to do. It’s an unbalanced mechanic. What players have access to in WoW is nothing short of typing /noclip into the box. Coupled with auto-run, it provides too powerful of a mode of transportation that undermines other aspects of the game, which is not healthy.

    Dragonflying resolves that those players are given agency to navigate the play space by turning flying into an active, engaging mechanic. Do I quickly dart over to the nearest flight point so I can grab a drink while I travel across the world? Or do I engage in flying and get to where I need to in half the time?

    That is significantly more interesting than mounting, flying up for a few seconds, aiming in the direction I want, then pressing auto-run while I disengage with the game and do something else. This is the bulk of what I’m arguing, honestly. I personally don’t understand how anyone could disagree with that point with something other than “it’s more convenient,” which, in my opinion, isn’t a strong enough argument to justify its implementation. But if you disagree, then you disagree; nothing more is to be said.


    I'm not sure why you’re coming at me with so much hostility; we’re discussing differing viewpoints. I agree with some things you said, and that’s fine. I’m also going to be honest; we can’t keep doing a back-and-forth at this scale; I can’t type novels every time, and I’m sure you don’t either.

    EDIT: Looking at this after posting, what the fuck am I doing with my time.
    Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-23 at 05:37 AM.

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