It is actually - thats the part of his post where he says "Limiting players is is NOT a healthy thiing for the game.". Games are about overcoming hurdles - and thats what he refers to as limiting players. IE - he wants literally all the hurdles/content removed so he can get the rewards more easily.
"Well, I'm forced to waste time to head to a safe zone (usually a settlement)"
Its no wonder you feel like you are wasting your time if you head to settlements every time something distracts you for a minute. All you have to do is move 20 yards away from mobs and then wont aggro on to you.
"Your inability or unwillingness to properly understand the argument does not mean it's "weak" or a "non-issue"
Your argument is very simply - its just not very good. Wow is meant to have a challenging open world and an mmo is meant to be a living world that has concequences if you dont react to it. There are safe zones - like you said- like cities/towns/settlements and so forth, which is where you should go if you wish to afk. The idea with flying has never been to make a free 3 seconds afk button. While it may inconvenience you its also one of the things that completely breaks immersion in many ways.
It’s not, there are correlations that exist outside of traversal that still have related core philosophies of design.
Take that exact same argument and apply it to any other aspect of the game and it immediately falls apart. So why does traversal, which is arguably the most important mechanic of an open world adventure game disregarded. Doesn’t quite add up to me.
I don’t really have to make any arguments since anyone defending it has failed to make any valid point other than “it’s convenient, and allows me to easily disengage with the game”. When you boil everything down that’s all you guys are arguing. And personally, I don’t think that’s a valid or strong enough point to stand on, and is frankly a bit daft.
Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 05:50 PM.
That's what I said, you are unable to even comprehend the absolute basic tenets of the argument being made, instead rephrasing it wishy-washy into obvious nonsense, that you can then point to and say "that's obvious nonsense".
QED, I guess, you've demonstrated your own ineptitude quite beautifully
• Allows user to hover in mid-air while AFK to safely disengage with the game world.
• Allows user to disregard level design, bypassing terrain and encounter challenges.
• Allows user to gather resources unchallenged.
• Actively encourages players to disengage from the game by providing an easy way to afk while traveling from anywhere in the game.
What more is there to really say? These aren’t my points, this is what others argue in favor of.
Any game designer will look at that and go, yea these systems are broken if this is how players engage with them and it’s not a healthy thing.
Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 06:00 PM.
Completely wrong on all accounts. A limit in a game is not a hurdle. It's an unmovable barrier. If Blizzard, for example, limits your run speed to 150%, that isn't a hurdle. That's an unmovable barrier. Because no matter what you do, you're not going faster than 150% speed.
"Well, I'm forced to waste time to head to a safe zone (usually a settlement)"
Yeah, because god forbid not wanting your character to die every time you're forced to pry your attention away from the game, right? (/sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)Its no wonder you feel like you are wasting your time if you head to settlements every time something distracts you for a minute.
No, it's a fair argument, where I explain the reasons why I prefer the old method. Keyword: reasons. Plural. You just decided to focus on a single one and decided that was my "only argument.Your argument is very simply - its just not very good.
... That's a laugh. WoW? The same game in which Blizzard removed all the elite mobs that used to surround the entrance to dungeon and raid instances and at best replace them with normal mobs? The same WoW in which Blizzard that has now severely reduced the rez sickness debuff timer you get when you rez by the Spirit Healer?Wow is meant to have a challenging open world
And you're free to keep your precious immersions and use a ground mount to run back to the nearest settlement before you can go AFK or risk being killed before you return to your computer. I'll keep my convenience of nothing having to wait minutes before I can finally pull away from the computer for a minute or two.There are safe zones - like you said- like cities/towns/settlements and so forth, which is where you should go if you wish to afk. The idea with flying has never been to make a free 3 seconds afk button. While it may inconvenience you its also one of the things that completely breaks immersion in many ways.
So you're saying that being able to safely AFK is a bad thing, because heavens forbid you need to take care of something while playing - you should get killed for that, that's somehow "good" design. You know what people would do? Log out. And back in again. You're not changing anything about the design, you're just making things more inconvenient to achieve the exact same result.
First off, that doesn't have to be a bad thing - jumping puzzles etc. should be for people who enjoy doing that kind of thing. The existence of flying changes nothing about that, because people who enjoy that kind of thing can still do it the exact same way. If they CHOOSE not to, then it wasn't all that fun to begin with, was it, and you only had people do it because you forced them to. THAT should be the part remedied, not nixing entire systems with massively reaching ramifications just to address this specific, niche problem.
Also: dragon-riding allows you to bypass terrain and level design, too. So it's a moot point here.
Literally only true for Druid flight form. You picked a specific, incredibly narrow example that somehow justified generalized change - rather than, say, just making it so Druids can't gather in shapeshift form (like they already can't when e.g. mining). Also, making resource grinds easier is not a bad thing. Being "challenged" while resource gathering is an annoyance, not a bottleneck; if anything, this is worse for the average player because it makes it even harder to compete with professional farmers, who already have massively higher gathering efficiency that'd be barely impacted by a change.
Just like every form of fast travel. That you bring this up only reinforces my earlier point: you don't understand what people are saying. They don't want to "disengage from the game", they want to minimize engaging with the parts of the game THAT DON'T INTEREST THEM and maximize engaging with the parts that do. I want to go do quests and do dungeons - I don't want to spend X minutes in between, doing nothing but pray it's over soon and I can get back to doing what I came here to do. Somehow construing this as though it was added value is downright offensive, because it belittled people who hate the filler content by suggesting they should just man up and enjoy it. This is WHY fast travel exists, by the way. Where is this argument when it comes to Mage portals, ships and blimps, heck, friggin' flight masters? Somehow those are okay and totally fine, but afk on a flying mount is the devil's work you do purely to give the middle finger to a lovingly crafted world waiting to warmly embrace you? Ridiculous.
Did you even think for two minutes before rattling off these stereotype arguments, or did you simply parrot them from somewhere with zero reflection?
It is, because it undermines any sort of presence in the world space. You in a dangerous area? Just type in /noclip and you can hover out of harms way. Why is this behavior not okay in other games and considered cheating in some, but with WoW it gets a pass?
Honestly, I’d be much more okay with them removing the 20 second timer to logout if you’re not in War Mode. I don’t see any reason for it to exist as it’s original function was to prevent players from combat logging during the classic era. If they did that, it would easily resolve this problem you have in a way that doesn’t invalidate level design.
I just have to point to Zereth Mortis as to why thats a naive take. They did ship with jumping puzzles, and what did the majority of players do? Wait until flying was implemented to trivialize the content for easy rewards. Now you might say “that’s okay, it’s just lame jumping puzzles for trivial rewards”, but it absolutely kills any potential that could be had with jumping puzzles. You can look at Guild Wars 2 for how elaborate and expansive theirs are.
Dragonflying also doesn’t invalidate level design because the world is designed for it. There are areas you can not access unless you explore and level up your flying skill. This is fantastic design.
Skygolem. So it isn’t just druids. Despite your long tangent, my point still stands. You also need some resources that are hard to acquire in order to promote a healthy trading economy. Acquisition rate heavily factors in here.
It’s kind of funny how you don’t understand the difference here, how everything you listed is balanced against each other. Those alternate forms of travel “ball-park” you to the areas you want to go to, but you still have to explore and navigate the space to get where you need to go. They are all balanced and immersive in their own ways.
In regards to fast travel. In my opinion, I regard fast travel as a failure of game design. Take a game like Spider-Man. That game has fast travel in it, but you never find anyone using it because simply navigating the world space is fun using the traversal mechanics offered. Sunset Overdrive, Mad Max, Dying Light are others that all understood this. On the other side, games that aren’t as reliant on fun traversal methods lean into dynamic gameplay to make exploring worthwhile. Skyrim, Fallout, and Red Dead Redemption, come to mind here where you find yourself wandering across strangers and encounters that make exploring interesting.
The problem with WoW is that it does neither well. It doesn’t have dynamic events that unfold in the world as you explore, and it doesn’t have a fun engaging traversal system.
Blizzard seems to understand that you can’t quite have a dynamic online world, but you can have a fun traversal system. And they’re leaning into that for Dragonflight, pretty successfully too.
Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-22 at 08:13 PM.
You're not listening. This doesn't magically create more engagement with the "world space", it only creates inconvenience for people who would afk no matter what. Their behavior doesn't change, you're just putting up hurdles that annoy them, while creating no actual benefit. So now I log out when I go take a shit, instead of afk-ing in the air. Cool. I feel so much more engaged.
So your argument is "okay you're right, BUUUUUT if things were different, you wouldn't be right, so really, you're wrong!". Mmm-hmm. I do agree, though: if things WERE different, I'd have to make a different argument. They're, uh, not different, though. *cough*
Right. And if we designed a world with regular flying in mind, that would defuse your entire argument, then? Not to mention that you're ALSO implicitly arguing dragon-riding shouldn't be allowed in a world not designed for it (which is what this thread is about), which I'm not sure is a point you're actually trying to make.
So your barrier to entry is "spend 1.5 hours leveling your flying, once, for your entire account"? So if we add some kind of similar gate to regular flying, it'd be cool, yes? Because that's how dragon-riding works now, remember. It's no longer some kind of progressive unlock over long periods of time - as soon as you get it, you can go and max it out in very little time. And you never ever have to do it again on your account, ever. If that's all it takes for you to feel like you're progressing through "fantastic design", I guess the bar isn't very high for that kind of verdict.
So your argument went from "Druids can skip everything while gathering" to "Druids and people with Skygolem can skip things while gathering herbs specifically", and that somehow means it's enough of an argument to invalidate an entire mechanic for everyone in the game? Because Druids and <1% of players can be SLIGHTLY more efficient while doing specifically herbalism? Riiiiight.
But this changes practically nothing about it, and in fact changes it only in BAD ways because it further advantages the professional farmers, who can better leverage their efficiency. You're making the average player less likely to farm on their own, giving more power to organized farming rings, and overall HURTING the economy rather than helping it. Also, the whole "some things should be hard to get" is a blatant strawman, because none of the ACTUAL bottleneck goods would be impacted by this in any way. Gathered herbs and ore are not the limiting factor. Special reagents are. There's no fire under all that smoke you're blowing, because it's somewhere else entirely.
And why is flying not? You can just SAY "those are immersive, but flying is not!" but you need to, uh, prove that, first? How is you having your personal dragon or whatever that can get you where you want LESS immersive than hiring a flight master to put you on a dragon to go where they want? Doesn't that create MORE engagement rather than less, by giving you the freedom to explore where you want, rather than where they let you?
It's fine if you're arguing that YOU find it less immersive; that's cool. No one is forcing you to use the system. But you not liking it and having the option not to use it is very different from you not liking it and wanting EVERYONE not to have the option to use it.
Cool. I'm glad you agree that it's better to have something and choose not to use it, than to take it away from everyone including people who do want to use it. And that if something is fun enough, people will do it even if they can skip it; so we can leave the skip in for those who don't find it fun, without hurting the people who do.
Excellent way to argue my point, much obliged!
What kind of nerd plays a game in a fantasy world to get engrossed in that fantasy world? I'm sure glad that we have a game that doesn't force you to do things like "play the game" or "get involved with the world and mechanics".
Yes, because that was such a good thing for the direction of WoW. It's a good thing that we haven't seen them walk back on certain changes such as, say, reversing the simplification of talent trees. Everybody knows that simplifying talent trees was a great idea that Blizzard would never reverse.
I mean if dragon riding is as popular as predicted and widely loved by most, it being implemented is going to be a "get with the times" kind of moment for people who don't enjoy it. If dragon riding is successful enough to warrant an evergreen system then it's kind of "sorry not sorry" for those who disagree I think. I'm not saying you should change your mind and love it; I'm saying if successful enough you not loving it won't matter.
It should be evergreen.
But it shouldn't replace normal flying any more than ground mounts should be replaced entirely by flying. There is room for any and all types of travel. Let the players choose.
Is dragon riding fun? Sure, should it replace other flying mounts? Absolutely not. They've already said they have zero plans to ever do that anyway, no point in even talking about it.
Just ignore them, they can't take a different opinion that is blatantly obvious, every thought out answer you give them is basically retorted with "na ah" or "you're wrong because my opinion is the only right one"
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Luckily they have already said it's not happening and luckily a lot of people don't seem to like it. So we should all be safe from having terrible dragon flight simulator permanently added.
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You basically hard locked all their points but I imagine they have some more hyperbolic strawmen tucked away ready to go
Strongly disagree. I like dragonflight, and it has its uses being faster, but I want traditional flying also.
I'm not undermining your immersion for my convenience.
The whole point of my arguments is me saying that I don't want the original flight feature to be removed from the game. I have no problem whatsoever with both coexisting.
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No. No, it's not. At best, it means the mechanic will last longer than Dragonflight, and co-exist alongside the original flight feature. Removing the original flight feature brings zero benefits, and on top of that brings at least a few issues. So overall a net negative.
It's never going to happen. Dragonriding is not going to replace the original flight feature.If dragon riding is successful enough to warrant an evergreen system then it's kind of "sorry not sorry" for those who disagree I think. I'm not saying you should change your mind and love it; I'm saying if successful enough you not loving it won't matter.
Yes. That’s literally the point. This is what I wrote: “You in a dangerous area? Just type in /noclip and you can hover out of harm's way.” You can not make a threatening zone if you can fly up and out at any moment. This is why no flying in the Maw for Shadowlands was so effective. The only outlier that comes to mind is Icecrown, which was primarily due to the zone being explicitly designed for flying. We’ll circle back to that point later.
I suppose you misinterpreted my mentioning the 20-second timer being removed as focusing solely on /noclip AFK, but that wasn’t the intention. But I do believe that would resolve that issue you had. No one wants to wait 20 seconds to log out, not even me.
I’ll be honest; I don't know what this is. I suppose it’s about my 20-second timer statement? It’s not about “if things were different”; I’m simply saying I’d prefer to log out. Pressing one button to instantly disengage makes more sense. Granted, that’s a personal preference.
Actually, yes, you’re exactly correct. This is why the level design in WOTLK was so effective. It was the first expansion designed specifically around flying, but we haven’t had level design like it since. Dragonflight is a return to form. Legacy flying would likely work well there, but Dragonflying better connects the player to the world in a far more immersive and engaging way. Furthermore, legacy flying and its mechanics also undermine a crucial component of what Dragonflying wants to bring to the table; the two are at odds with one another.
Just as I’ve said earlier, I did change my stance from a previous post where I feel that legacy flying does have a place in the game, just not with any active expansion moving forward. It should be a legacy feature and something that should be allowed once an expansion ‘goes the distance.’ This is to give room to features similar to Dragonflying and expand the traversal systems in the game in new and fun directions.
Again, absolutely, yes. It’s significantly better than the alternative that we have now, which was, in the past, spending copious amounts of gold just to be granted access. Or, the newer laundry lists of tasks you have to check off to be given later into an expansion as evidence that you’ve played the content.
Now, with Dragonflight, I’m granted a basic form of flying with its own progression path. It’s going to feel fantastic to feel it get stronger. And while some players can sit and knock it out in an hour and a half. Others will explore and find tokens as they progress through the campaign and the various zones. Either way, we’re given agency on how to proceed, which is “fantastic design.”
To go on a side tangent. What excites me about the progression system is it’s built in a similar way to the talent trees, so I don’t see any reason why this could be expanded in the future with new abilities granted to your mount. My pessimistic side knows that’s unlikely, but the potential is there.
The critical difference is legacy flying does not have that progression system to facilitate a mechanically improved flying mount. And, it can’t facilitate one, simply put, it’s just too strong in its core design. I suppose you could argue why flying would even need that, but at the same time, why wouldn’t you want more game in your video game?
I know we have mount equipment too, and it was an amusing concept, but ultimately I think it failed to leave a long-lasting impression and isn’t something I engage with all that much. Maybe others do, but I haven’t seen Blizzard push any new updates on that front, and players seem to pick one and forget based on the behavior I’ve discussed with guildmates.
This one is somewhat on me as you weren’t here earlier in the thread where the druid/skygolem discussion was brought up; that’s where that bullet point specifically came from. I was always referring to both as any competent gatherer is more than likely using the skygolem if they aren’t already a druid. But the point still stands: those specific setups allow the user to gather unchallenged, breaking any aggro on NPCs by simply flying up.
Thinking about it further, you're correct; between sharding, phases, and the like, there are no actual bottlenecks. This isn’t a game like EVE, where logistics come into play.
It does, but it’s far too effective at doing it that it largely disconnects you from the game world. Simply put, it’s way too powerful at what it attempts to do. It’s an unbalanced mechanic. What players have access to in WoW is nothing short of typing /noclip into the box. Coupled with auto-run, it provides too powerful of a mode of transportation that undermines other aspects of the game, which is not healthy.
Dragonflying resolves that those players are given agency to navigate the play space by turning flying into an active, engaging mechanic. Do I quickly dart over to the nearest flight point so I can grab a drink while I travel across the world? Or do I engage in flying and get to where I need to in half the time?
That is significantly more interesting than mounting, flying up for a few seconds, aiming in the direction I want, then pressing auto-run while I disengage with the game and do something else. This is the bulk of what I’m arguing, honestly. I personally don’t understand how anyone could disagree with that point with something other than “it’s more convenient,” which, in my opinion, isn’t a strong enough argument to justify its implementation. But if you disagree, then you disagree; nothing more is to be said.
I'm not sure why you’re coming at me with so much hostility; we’re discussing differing viewpoints. I agree with some things you said, and that’s fine. I’m also going to be honest; we can’t keep doing a back-and-forth at this scale; I can’t type novels every time, and I’m sure you don’t either.
EDIT: Looking at this after posting, what the fuck am I doing with my time.
Last edited by Kilrox; 2022-11-23 at 05:37 AM.