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  1. #121
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It's a pointless mindless grind. You can hit level cap spamming whatever the game auto assigns your 2 key.
    You've been able to do that always? Just about what is there. Leveling now is far from a grind comparing to older expansions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    It's barely a video game at this point and just a dull movie. By level 5 if you let a caster get off a three second cast you need to lose 60% of your hp.
    Well, yes and no, except at lvl 5 you cannot interrupt a caster, never been able to (unless you count Tauren and Blood Elves (Before their Arcane Torrent was changed)). Commonly this demand is what is considered under the grind topic as well, if you need to eat/drink every 2-3 kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    The worlds changed hit up steam for the most played games. Never lose is out of style.
    Unsure what the hell you are talking about, what is "Never lose"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sableye View Post
    I'm not sure the content is the problem, its that blizz will make leveling easy or hard seemingly at random between expansions. During Legion before any of the level scaling stuff it was fairly easy to level and alt, fast forward to bfa and it felt like I was doing entire zones for 1-2 levels, then they reduce the xp needed again and you zoom to 50 in shadowlands only to hit a brick wall again where I was finishing all the shadowlands quests before reaching 60. Blizz just needs to maybe figure out a number of how long they think a 1to-current run should be and balance around that
    Leveling has always been easy. The history just made it smoother and more compact with the level squish. The only time leveling was able to be considered hard was when Blizzard scaled the world by accident, and everyone was whining because a random wolf was eating their face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    But how often would those zones need to be updated?
    all the chromie time was once relevant in terms of story and no longer are. Similarly, the cata revamp is no longer relevant and as such you're asking for its replacement. inevitably this same thing would happen to that new zone. Or are you saying the story and quest in those new zones would be so much filler and pointless that they wouldn't mean anything and not needed to be updated ever.
    A very good point, three expansions later, the OP's idea of an introduction zone/content only for 10-60 would be out of date, we would be lvl 100 once more by then.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Leveling right now is insanely grindy. Leveling in classic is not very grind at all. I don't think you quite understand what a grind is. The reason leveling is a grind in retail is because its just quest quest quest quest quest quest quest. There is extremely little variation. You pick up 2-4 quests, follow the arrow, complete them, hand them in, repeat. It's hour after hour after hour of that same fast, repeating pattern. In Classic there is a lot of downtime like travel and professions to break things up.
    What are you talking about? Levelling today is easy and fast and yeah, by your definition, grindy. But to me grindy is when it crushes your soul. And THAT is what you get with Classic. I've done it recently and it was soul crushing. And yes, it's just as quest, quest, quest, quest, quest as retail times 1000. Downtime like travel and professions is not levelling up but you can hop on a gryphon and do it if you choose, in retail. I love how retail has questing optimised, so you go from "quest hub" to quest hub in a way that I, speaking for myself of course, don't even notice the repetitiveness because it's telling me a story, that gets ticked off a list.
    Last edited by AtomR; 2022-11-26 at 10:11 AM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    Hello, fellas.

    I've been thinking about the fact that after Exile's Reach, new players are thrown into Battle for Azeroth leveling, which is not a great start in terms of getting used to the game mechanics. I believe Blizzard should create a 10-60 starting experience, rather than just a 1-10 one. I don't advocate for a brand new zone, instead I believe a leveling experience in old zones that delves into a new quest storyline would be better. Maybe going through several continents and allowing players to get used to the game more easily.

    What do you think about this?
    Do you really think that WoW is going to have enough "new" players to warrant a massive tutorial zone?

    The answer is no. WoW is full of very little amount of new players and loaded with very large amount addicted players who just wont quit.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    You've been able to do that always? Just about what is there. Leveling now is far from a grind comparing to older expansions.


    Well, yes and no, except at lvl 5 you cannot interrupt a caster, never been able to (unless you count Tauren and Blood Elves (Before their Arcane Torrent was changed)). Commonly this demand is what is considered under the grind topic as well, if you need to eat/drink every 2-3 kills.


    Unsure what the hell you are talking about, what is "Never lose"?

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    Leveling has always been easy. The history just made it smoother and more compact with the level squish. The only time leveling was able to be considered hard was when Blizzard scaled the world by accident, and everyone was whining because a random wolf was eating their face.

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    A very good point, three expansions later, the OP's idea of an introduction zone/content only for 10-60 would be out of date, we would be lvl 100 once more by then.
    Some people just rather things improve rather then backslide.

  5. #125
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    Do you really think that WoW is going to have enough "new" players to warrant a massive tutorial zone?

    The answer is no. WoW is full of very little amount of new players and loaded with very large amount addicted players who just wont quit.
    Meanwhile, as a Guide/Mentor, I see a massive influx of returning players and new players, and I'm not the only one experiencing so. It doesn't warrant a 10-60 covering but it does warrant a need for a connection to main content from the 1-10 or an extension of 1-10 to 1-20 but then a 1-20 would lock trial accounts to the introduction zone only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Some people just rather things improve rather then backslide.
    Things have improved? Massively compared to the past.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Eosia View Post
    And this is bad why? You STILL have made absolutely zero case why BfA is so bad for new players. You prefer they be forced through Shadowlands instead?

    All expansions are the same in terms of leveling. You kill shit, you loot shit, you escort someone, and then there's that one quest that literally involves shit. They also involve dungeons which is where one really learns the mechanics of the class which usually ends up happening in the current expansion anyways since mechanics and such change as you level, especially with talent trees being back.

    Besides, chances are they will be required to do Dragonflight instead of BfA when 11.0 hits.



    In a way, they sort have done that from Legion onward. If you follow the main zone storyline, the that is exactly what happens. The side quests just become superfluous.
    If you think BfA questing is good for new players, fair enough. If you think loads of side quests, where new players can easily lose track of the main story, are good for a new player, fair enough. If you think BfA War Campaign in the middle of questing is not confusing for new players, fair enough. And so on.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    If you think BfA questing is good for new players, fair enough. If you think loads of side quests, where new players can easily lose track of the main story, are good for a new player, fair enough. If you think BfA War Campaign in the middle of questing is not confusing for new players, fair enough. And so on.
    Well, I guess you must be new because:

    1) Side quests have existed since Vanilla. Pre-Cataclysm, a lot of the zone story were more like a series of side quests. There was no cohesive move through the zone telling an overarching story. I would say Cataclysm was the first to do that.

    2) Campaigns have been a thing since Legion. Dragonflight has them too. It's a thing going forward.

  8. #128
    They have one, its called the "World of Warcraft".
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Nork View Post
    Did you read the part where I say "new players"? New players can't use Chromie time until they level up their first character to max level.
    Nope ( long live my dyslexia :P kinda read past some words).

    But still. Most of my argument still holds. the time/money it takes to redo all of it. Just for a few people. It also causes more phased area's. the main reason we do not have any invasions in the glades right now. Is because of the many overlapping phased area's in that zone.

    And a new point: yes you would learn the old lore....old lore that has been replaced with expansions. Lets say we do it your way. We will miss stories like legion or WoD ( i wish i could forget the last one :P).

    I think while i would love a revamp of the game and all the content ( upgrade all old gear t look nicer, redo all quests etc). the time/money vs what it will get us is to little. It might only work if you make the whole game engine a new ( like in unreal 5). And make all players redo all content.


    BUT...i see i am a bit negative..so let me think of a way to help you..........
    Maybe give new accounts a 1 time super chromie time. that levels you to end level last expansion ( so level 50 right now) true all the zones and expansions. Like do a cliffnote version of all the lore.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    What are you talking about? Levelling today is easy and fast and yeah, by your definition, grindy. But to me grindy is when it crushes your soul. And THAT is what you get with Classic. I've done it recently and it was soul crushing. And yes, it's just as quest, quest, quest, quest, quest as retail times 1000. Downtime like travel and professions is not levelling up but you can hop on a gryphon and do it if you choose, in retail. I love how retail has questing optimised, so you go from "quest hub" to quest hub in a way that I, speaking for myself of course, don't even notice the repetitiveness because it's telling me a story, that gets ticked off a list.
    Grind doesn't mean "I dont enjoy it" or "It isnt fun to me" or "It doesn't tell me a story I like" or "It takes longer than something else". Grinding means short repetitive tasks that have to be repeated one after the other. That very accurately describes retail leveling. It does not describe classic leveling. The fact that you wanted to be 60 in five hours and felt it was soul crushing not to be has nothing to do with whether something is a grind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Sooooo, just like all other expansions? You make the downtime yourself now. Leveling is so smoothed out and fast that if you want downtime, you have to take it yourself because people seemingly had a problem with leveling in the first place. It is not grindy at all, and if it is, then it is due to bad personal management of yourself. You have so many methods and paths to level on now.
    You can't say something isn't grindy because you can take breaks. If that is the case, literally the most grindathon Korean MMO in existence that requires killing 90,000 of the same mob to gain one level isn''t grindy because you can "make the downtime yourself".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  11. #131
    WoW is not designed to play alone, but with friends or other experienced people.
    WoW has so many things to do. New players are easily lost without guidance of other experienced player.
    To be good in mythic plus or raid, new players need to know a lot of things:
    Dps rotation, addons, professions, boss mechanics, interrupt etc.
    WoW never teach new players all these things, players need to learn themselves, basically from friends, guildies, videos etc.
    Play WoW alone is boring.

  12. #132
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    You can't say something isn't grindy because you can take breaks. If that is the case, literally the most grindathon Korean MMO in existence that requires killing 90,000 of the same mob to gain one level isn''t grindy because you can "make the downtime yourself".
    That is literally what you said?

    In Classic there is a lot of downtime like travel and professions to break things up.
    Classic is still way more grindy than progression servers. Whether you see the downtime as selective or scheduled. Downtime is downtime.

    Current leveling is the smoothest, mildest, easiest leveling that the game has ever experienced.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Grind doesn't mean "I dont enjoy it" or "It isnt fun to me" or "It doesn't tell me a story I like" or "It takes longer than something else". Grinding means short repetitive tasks that have to be repeated one after the other. That very accurately describes retail leveling. It does not describe classic leveling. The fact that you wanted to be 60 in five hours and felt it was soul crushing not to be has nothing to do with whether something is a grind.
    You are literally doing EXACTLY the same thing in classic as you are in retail. Except you are doing it hundreds of times more than in retail. So even by your definition you are factually incorrect.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    You are literally doing EXACTLY the same thing in classic as you are in retail. Except you are doing it hundreds of times more than in retail. So even by your definition you are factually incorrect.
    It's not the same. They have completely different pacing, and grinding is about pacing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    That is literally what you said?


    Classic is still way more grindy than progression servers. Whether you see the downtime as selective or scheduled. Downtime is downtime.

    Current leveling is the smoothest, mildest, easiest leveling that the game has ever experienced.
    The downtime in classic is mandatory. The idea that "You can turn the game off" mitigated something being grindy is insanely stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    You are literally doing EXACTLY the same thing in classic as you are in retail. Except you are doing it hundreds of times more than in retail. So even by your definition you are factually incorrect.
    Except its not the same. The quests are slower, they are broken up with more downtime, they are deadlier, etc.. Grindy doesn't mean "I dont like it and it takes too long".
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #135
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The downtime in classic is mandatory. The idea that "You can turn the game off" mitigated something being grindy is insanely stupid.
    Forced or not forced downtime does not make a grind less so. Vanilla was, and Classic is a bigger grind than progression servers.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  16. #136
    Well. i do not want to stuck in a starting zone unless I finished the quest.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Lochton View Post
    Forced or not forced downtime does not make a grind less so. Vanilla was, and Classic is a bigger grind than progression servers.
    It’s not. Classic is distinctly not grindy. There are certainly some insanely grindy quests, but the overall process is not grindy. It is long. It takes a lot of effort. But that isn’t what grindy means.

    Grindy means requiring the same short tasks over and over again. That’s not what classic leveling is. Classic leveling is a lot of traveling, downtime, and maintenance.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    Do you really think that WoW is going to have enough "new" players to warrant a massive tutorial zone?

    The answer is no. WoW is full of very little amount of new players and loaded with very large amount addicted players who just wont quit.
    While your wording is a bit harsh, but you are one of the very few here that sees this issue from where it should be seen - as a business decision.

    But let's assume that WoW has a "lot of new players".
    Who says that those "new players" have the goal or desire to have "a meaningful levelling experience in the open world"?
    It might as well be the case that those "new players" have the desire to learn play well with others in dungeons and/or raids and don't give a rat's ass about the story.

    I for one, based on myself and those I play with, assume that the latter would be more relevant for Blizzard.
    But Blizzard has since day 1 in WoW had a more or less hands-off approach to how the players should play the game and learn it. For good and for worse.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    You cannot release a game like WoW on consoles. It's just not fit for the platform. Blizzard would have done it ages ago if they could have.
    FF14 is pretty close to WoW gameplay-wise. Why does that work on consoles but WoW not? Just because?

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilpi View Post
    FF14 is pretty close to WoW gameplay-wise. Why does that work on consoles but WoW not? Just because?
    I play FF14 exclusively on controller. The games are very similar, but there are key differences:

    1. WoW's menus are not built around gamepad.
    2. The way you interact with the world in WoW is very M+K focused, with many encounters being very much based on running around clicking things.
    3. Healing in WoW practically requires mouseover healing, while in FF14 it is not nearly that intensive.
    4. Rapidly switching targets is key in a lot of content, and this is a pain point with gamepad. That's why FF14 has so few multi-target fights.

    They could certainly reorient wow to this, and I believe they could do it without making the game worse for anyone, but it's not a 1:1 comparison. The differences are actually pretty big despite the superficial similarities of how the games play.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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