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  1. #201
    Field Marshal Imnotadentist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    BFA prepatch literally removed all of your quests from your questlog upon changing zones, causing many people to lose quests they have had since vanilla, causing people who were long progressed through massive questlines purged, oh you are 99% done your shadowmourne quest to get all the shadowfrost shards? lol fuck you quest gone, back to step 1. It also had a massive honor farm that let people get honor level 10,000 in no time.
    again, every prepatch has had massive amounts of bugs.
    also dude, you have yet to say anything correct, and nearly had to have cloudburst totem still existing pointed out to you 3 times.
    Firstly, I agree that BFA bug was pretty bad, but it also got rolled back and was more or less the only seriously damming bug from that pre-patch. Not to say it wasn't a big deal, but it was immediately fixed. and i mean if every expac prepatch had this many bugs, why only referance bfas launch? I mean shadowlands had a couple bugs in prepatch, with elites freezing and despawning, which kinda sucked.
    But, unlike this pre-patch, these problems were fixed within a single week, despite them being rather impactful bugs that would seemingly take a longer time than say, fixing enchanting vellums? (they didnt work for 8 days) Mechagnomes racial still doesn't function properly, The blue primal thing (from the boss in the events) won't trade for some reason, and thats just the issues I noticed today. Never have I seen DAILY hotfixing pretty much since release of the pre-patch, and THERES EVEN MORE BUGS STILL!
    And I did very clearly say that i saw cloudburst/wellspring in your earlier post, but I guess you missed that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Bro idk if you know but you can click on someone's account, go to their "quotes" section, then just look...
    it literally took me 30 seconds to go there, then look at the ones where I quoted you...
    right and to link each indivdual quote too, right? with clickable, custom links? Sounds like you didnt commit a bit of time to that.
    Last edited by Imnotadentist; 2022-11-24 at 11:27 AM. Reason: bad at english at 330 am

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    People like or dislike whatever they want. It's none of your business. Why are people like you always looking for a "yes" bubble? Do you need approval to play or enjoy a game?

    I completely understand people having grievances given past experiences and it's far too early to be calling DF a winner. After all the burns it would be insane to not be cautious.

    I still remember the thread made by some guy 2 weeks into SL saying how great the expansion was and i told him the same thing i'm telling you now. Launch is not when you find out if an expansion is good. It's a month or two in.

    Either way, don't expect people to be giving an easy 4th, 5th, etc chances to WoW. The way back to earning customer trust is a long one and it will take years to achieve.
    I swear its an American thing. So many cannot accept other people's opinions and feel the need to try their hardest to call out/shame other people until they stop talking/posting. They think they are smarter than everyone else, when it's more that they were not brought up correctly, nor have any manners. They treat people poorly, then get a surprised Pikachu face when they get treated poorly back. Just look at your political system as perfect evidence. Fuck them! But pooor me!!

  3. #203
    maybe because not everyone seems to like dragonflight or modern wow?

  4. #204
    It's not surprising. Blizzard is an enormously unpopular studio right now that is widely seen as having grossly mishandled their product.

    Some developers always get the benefit of the doubt, and some developers are universally disliked to the point their product is panned before its even released.

    Blizzard, over many long years, have managed to go from the former group to the latter, and it's difficult to argue it isn't by their own doing.


  5. #205
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    "SL is the most alt friendly expansion"

    What type of shit???
    Yup, you did the content on ur main and after all the "fixes" you had shortcuts and skip options for legendarys, conduits, story unlock, renown e.tc. i even managed to have 2x legendaries on all my toons since they were dirt cheap to craft and i was able to funnel all the required mats from my main.

    During s4 fated i spent on average around 15k gold per 291 legendary.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by pinkspring View Post
    It's not surprising. Blizzard is an enormously unpopular studio right now that is widely seen as having grossly mishandled their product.
    Product? Try productS. Every IP they own has only gotten worse, some even abandoned.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Popikaify View Post
    Like im wondering why DF videos got so many dislikes,i see nothing wrong with the upcoming expansion.Just curious what the f... is wrong with people being obsessed on hating wow non stop? unsub and leave,why is it that hard ? im not blizzard fanboy,but i cant stand this community,i swear to god.

    Blizzard definately did lots of bad stuff in the past and i get it,but some of the community folks are the worst psychos ive ever seen,ex girlfriend syndrome.
    While i do agree that i'm cautiously optimistic regarding DF there are more than a few things that can draw ire legitimately.

    - The art direction seems to be worsening, and is sometimes made so intentionally it seems, such as in the case of the drac'thyr in particular
    - The story still bears the scars of BfA and SL, and some of the already known stuff does not seem to imply an improvement to the level thereof
    - SL's music was a huge step back, i have heard little of DF's music so far, but if it does as SL did without much of a personality to speak of then it's going to disappoint
    - The reward structures part of the game got progressively worse since WoD, ironically. As such you can get some people that feel, ah, cheated on. Those structures are in place for a reason ofc, but on some it might work too well while on others it might just discourage entirely, or otherwise warp their experience

    Now personally i'm not into the whole premature hate thing, but i'm even less into the whole "Leave Blitney alone!!1!" thing. I have not pre ordered and my sub is set to expire in a few days, to give an idea about my expectations.

    As to the intra company drama they recently had: I do not care, the only way in which such behind the scenes nonsense is relevant is the way in which it affects their products (consequently: Improvement in this area also does not earn them any favor with me).

    So in short: Pretend all you like, but there is plenty to dislike, and while i do not personally agree with the (premature) dislike i can easily see where it comes from.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    1. That is subjective. I play both and i think FF is a better game. Anyone can have their opinion. There is no objectively about it. Different players value different things differently. Shocking, i know.

    2.Asmongold does not have that kind of power. Maybe his most hardcore fanbase but they aren't enough to make a blip. People were already going to FF cause they were unsatisfied with WoW. I did it many years before he started playing. People leave WoW cause of WoW, not other games.

    3. You confuse disinformation with preferences in gaming. One is nothing but lies, the other is not.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wholy moley guy... maybe you should move to Russia or China? We are not the same.
    What you want is censorship. Streamers can say whatever they want as long as they don't endanger anyone. They did not "lie". The criticism was completely fair.
    Btw, by the same logic, Belular is pumping out lots of positive videos of DF atm. Way more positive than they should be as they are speculation. So... i suppose he can't do these either and should be banned right? He is benefitting and making money from them.
    Try to catch your own bias. There is no conspiracy. People watch and do whatever they want. They aren't a bunch of mindless drones as much as you like to think they are to fit your victimisation narrative.
    1. You litteraly repeated me. Shocking, indeed.

    2. He has that power. If you don't believe me - then look it up. The top management of a company worth more than $70B had a open conflict with him. You can imagine how much distruption Asmongold caused.

    3. No. It's about influence. If Asmongold started a political party tomorrow, people would join and he would have more than enough signatures to be taken serious.

    The streamers are nothing else but a buisness(check reddit for a big thread and how it's agreed upon). The new marketing models involves not commercials, but using the streamers.

    The streamer market is bigger than the home entertainment(HBO, Netflix etc. combined). That is how serious this is.

    I get mad when Bellular is skimming fake numbers, and rallying 1M people. I told you that Bellular is on a positive note now - I give him tops 2 weeks before he drops the doom and gloom clickbait videoes(that is litteraly how he earns money. It's a predictable circle). Just like Asmongold is a famous face and nothing else.

    We need to have regulations. It's not the same as censorship, more like some NDA.

    If you want go big boy on me, then do it.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2022-11-24 at 02:12 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    so same as in 9.2
    where is the problem?
    It was bad then too

    Making raiding the only reliable source of seasonal content is a mistake in 2022 imo! They could easily open it a couple weeks in after the RWF and give it one charge a week
    Last edited by Ashana Darkmoon; 2022-11-25 at 11:54 AM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    That has never been a thing?

    Subscription numbers are public for investor purposes, currently WoW has 4.46Mil subscriptions. Not unique subscripts.
    Point to me where Blizzard (or Activision-Blizzard) released that number. I'll wait.

    (gets out popcorn)

    I wonder if DF is even going to release in China now. We may not get a sales-as-of-release-day number now.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2022-11-25 at 01:13 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #211
    Bloodsail Admiral bloodkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkspring View Post
    It's not surprising. Blizzard is an enormously unpopular studio right now that is widely seen as having grossly mishandled their product.

    Some developers always get the benefit of the doubt, and some developers are universally disliked to the point their product is panned before its even released.

    Blizzard, over many long years, have managed to go from the former group to the latter, and it's difficult to argue it isn't by their own doing.

    What I find exceptionally toxic is that people are still more than willing to blindly defend blizz with every angry keystroke they can muster.

    At this point we have an mmo with paid sub, paid expansions and cash shop eith (soft) P2W alongside cosmetics. Blizz made wow the hardest mmo to sell to people, as the upfront and upkeep costs are very high in comparison with other mmo's. Having better quality game and service isn't an argument anymore as many games provide comparable or even better services than blizz.
    'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn

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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Popikaify View Post
    Yes they fucked up and fired those people there are still good devs among them,wow team crew is almost 3 times bigger now.People wanted an expansion EXACTLY like DF,without borrowed power,its very alt frendly,old talent trees (current one are way better in my opinion),more open world content and so on.

    Even if they didnt react to wow playerbase feedback,those guys would still google up wow content and hate it for stuff they did before ? as i mentioned "the worst psychos ive ever seen"
    I don't know. Are you a big fan of the guy who killed hitler ?
    Blizzard told their communauty for the last 15 years that they listened them, understood them and will do better after. And did so, at pretty much every patch. So why do you think people should praise them for content they haven't delivered ?

  13. #213
    Pandaren Monk czarek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Popikaify View Post
    Like im wondering why DF videos got so many dislikes,i see nothing wrong with the upcoming expansion.Just curious what the f... is wrong with people being obsessed on hating wow non stop? unsub and leave,why is it that hard ? im not blizzard fanboy,but i cant stand this community,i swear to god.

    Blizzard definately did lots of bad stuff in the past and i get it,but some of the community folks are the worst psychos ive ever seen,ex girlfriend syndrome.
    Because sometimes is just hard to drop something/someone you just love.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Admittedly, although I speak so disparagingly of Blizzard so often and spoke in defense of critics, I think this is a fundamentally immature reaction to apply previous failures to the current content. This is a point where "wait and see" may be semi-necessary. The revelation of Neltharion's first interactions with the Old Gods (or, perhaps, the first tangible evidence of his corruption depending on the sequence of events) doesn't really destroy any previous lore or otherwise besmirch it, which puts it significantly above-par for Shadowlands to begin with. I frankly don't see the problem, and I honestly never thought of Neltharion's corruption as a mystery at all—originally, it was that he was assigned the domain of the Old Gods and slowly became susceptible to them, especially as his burden became worse, but now there exists a particular threshold where an external force served as a breaking point for him. It's a revelation that could serve as something of a retcon, but it feels more akin to the quasi-retcon of the Void Lords' influence on Sargeras (including the specification from a broad sense of disillusionment causing his downfall to a specific breaking point facilitated by an external force) than, say, Zovaal actually being the 4d chessmaster mastermind behind everything ever.

    As for the intended audience, I'd probably assume they're just to hype their entire audience, returning and currently-extant, up for the expansion. I don't think this is some attempt to bait back old fans. I also don't think most people consider the lore "burning bridges", though the lore was definitely permanently besmirched by Shadowlands' retcons.
    Applying previous failures to the current content in itself would be a fallacy, true, however with very little changed in terms of who actually has a say in the writing itself (and the change is much smaller than people might think, considering how long Danuser is part of it with a significant sway), there is enough reason to not get my hopes up for better writing. After all the Lore does not just happen on itself. Shadowlands does a similar thing that riled up people in for example Star Wars and Star Trek fandoms. No matter how hard those are defended, violently wiping everything off the table carelessly in order to force things into it, that just don't blend with the stuff that is the very reason why those franchises got popular to begin with is unimaginable hubris and a slap in the face to the audience you already got.

    Shadowlands did precisely that and absurdly poorly. I think i agree with you in hindsight, that it probably isnt that big of a secret what made him snap and when it happened, however if you see it this way or not, it is certainly handled here with a hand-wave. This threshhold was shown. What it was that caused it was too. I find that kind of... anticlimactic? There is nothing to it now, it seems like. This ominous glove is broken, the threshhold was this Protodragon that was not really characterized yet and while this might mean there will be more to her, we are back at A; The lore does not exist for itself and i got to judge based on the work so far to set up my hopes and expectations. Of course being wrong would make me happy!

    My issue is not the thing that was revealed, but how its presented here. This entire thing is not a retconn at all, actually. Its just adding to it. Its like who crafted the Helmet of Domination, changing the Nazrezim to not be the ones making it but just the ones who handed it over, which is not destructive; its just an extra piece of the puzzle. So that is really not an issue, i agree. ...unlike King Nipples Mastery of all things.

    Lastly and maybe; My perspective comes from someone who used to do "hardcore raiding", yet did so on roleplaying realms. So when i say burning bridges, i speak of the dread this lore caused me (to be dramatic about it) but also witnessing how many roleplayers just flat out quit because shadowlands was infuriating to them. Incredibly. I was already on my way out due to other events im sure you and everyone else is aware off, and i likely wouldnt have quit over the lore myself but... good grief, you know? At least in these communities it bled players, which is a hard thing to do, because Roleplayers are definitely one of those groups that run on very little to be sort-of-kind-of happy these days.
    If you are offended by something i said, im probably at least 45% sorry about it and there is a 3% Chance it was not on purpose!

    Blizzard, getting away with murder since at least 2019.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    I don't know. Are you a big fan of the guy who killed hitler ?
    That was Hitler. So, no.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodkin View Post
    What I find exceptionally toxic is that people are still more than willing to blindly defend blizz with every angry keystroke they can muster.

    At this point we have an mmo with paid sub, paid expansions and cash shop eith (soft) P2W alongside cosmetics. Blizz made wow the hardest mmo to sell to people, as the upfront and upkeep costs are very high in comparison with other mmo's. Having better quality game and service isn't an argument anymore as many games provide comparable or even better services than blizz.
    The fuck is "soft P2W"? It either is or isn't. (And WoW isn't.)

    Also, this idea that people are "angrily" defending Blizzard because they have emotional responses to absolutely ridiculous criticism of the game is hilarious. Almost every time this comes up it's because somebody's upset their surface level, completely unfounded and totally unnecessary criticism wasn't validated and therefore whomever failed to appreciate this groundbreaking, totally new and original take is a jerk.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Applying previous failures to the current content in itself would be a fallacy, true, however with very little changed in terms of who actually has a say in the writing itself (and the change is much smaller than people might think, considering how long Danuser is part of it with a significant sway), there is enough reason to not get my hopes up for better writing. After all the Lore does not just happen on itself. Shadowlands does a similar thing that riled up people in for example Star Wars and Star Trek fandoms. No matter how hard those are defended, violently wiping everything off the table carelessly in order to force things into it, that just don't blend with the stuff that is the very reason why those franchises got popular to begin with is unimaginable hubris and a slap in the face to the audience you already got.
    I agree with you wholesale in your sentiments. I do feel like expressing discontent with Danuser is a good thing to do. However, I also feel as though there are two objections to this I can easily produce—first off, Danuser may have learned his lesson. The discontent with Shadowlands may well have beaten the point into him about how little the playerbase tolerates excessive and gratuitous retcons. We can see this in certain elements of how Dragonflight has been written thus far; I will concede, however, that there's no way of knowing how much of this is Danuser learning his lesson and how much of this is simply the more grounded setting that the powers that be demanded. Secondly, and inordinately more importantly, by expressing discontent with the vastly superior setting and choices of Dragonflight, it is very plausible that someone will be spooked or misled by what they see, either determining that Dragonflight is not the preferred direction or even worse, outwardly dismissing criticism because they misread the general discontent as indicative of a playerbase that cannot be pleased.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Shadowlands did precisely that and absurdly poorly. I think i agree with you in hindsight, that it probably isnt that big of a secret what made him snap and when it happened, however if you see it this way or not, it is certainly handled here with a hand-wave. This threshhold was shown. What it was that caused it was too. I find that kind of... anticlimactic? There is nothing to it now, it seems like. This ominous glove is broken, the threshhold was this Protodragon that was not really characterized yet and while this might mean there will be more to her, we are back at A; The lore does not exist for itself and i got to judge based on the work so far to set up my hopes and expectations. Of course being wrong would make me happy!
    Well, that is perfectly fair. I personally think it's a nice way of building up Raszageth by neatly connecting her to a preexisting plot point that was generally vague in its particulars. This also doesn't strictly give her absolute primacy over that plot point, much unlike the situation with the Jailer, where his specter will eternally be cast upon the Lich King's story. I do agree that it is a little anticlimactic, but any problems it may cause come in degrees—if it really was Raszageth that led to Neltharion's corruption, that would be rather frustrating, but I personally read this as just being the final threshold; he would have been corrupted either way, Raszageth just happened to be the last straw.


    Ultimately, this particular point I have to concede to you by default because there's so little information on this situation that I can't argue about it, though I do think that it only warrants disliking that particular video rather than the rest of them. You definitely have a right to this, though, and expressing that you dislike something is, in fact, what the dislike button is for.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    My issue is not the thing that was revealed, but how its presented here. This entire thing is not a retconn at all, actually. Its just adding to it. Its like who crafted the Helmet of Domination, changing the Nazrezim to not be the ones making it but just the ones who handed it over, which is not destructive; its just an extra piece of the puzzle. So that is really not an issue, i agree. ...unlike King Nipples Mastery of all things.
    My feelings generally, and that's a point where we entirely agree. I'd also say that even as relatively sensible as the Nathrezim retcon was (at least compared to the incredible shitfest that was Shadowlands), it still had very dramatic implications for the rest of the lore that tied the Shadowlands plot into everything inexorably. Conversely, Raszageth doesn't really inexorably insert herself into the Neltharion plot just by being a critical breaking point for him, and if Dragonflight did turn out bad it wouldn't permanently leave a bad taste in people's mouths whenever the connected lore was mentioned, whereas there's no real way to separate the Lich King lore from the Jailer now.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoundOfGuns View Post
    Lastly and maybe; My perspective comes from someone who used to do "hardcore raiding", yet did so on roleplaying realms. So when i say burning bridges, i speak of the dread this lore caused me (to be dramatic about it) but also witnessing how many roleplayers just flat out quit because shadowlands was infuriating to them. Incredibly. I was already on my way out due to other events im sure you and everyone else is aware off, and i likely wouldnt have quit over the lore myself but... good grief, you know? At least in these communities it bled players, which is a hard thing to do, because Roleplayers are definitely one of those groups that run on very little to be sort-of-kind-of happy these days.
    Well, fair—I'm personally from a roleplay server as well and my original home, Wyrmrest Accord-Alliance, was effectively depopulated due to a mix of the lore and certain, far more pivotal and reprehensible real-world problems in connection to Blizzard—I understand your frustrations well. Either way, though, I wouldn't want to sue that as precedent to discourage Blizzard because Dragonflight is a step in the right direction, and by encouraging more stories of this sort it communicates (if not exceptionally clearly) to Blizzard the types of plots we want, the types of plots we don't, the types of retcons we tolerate, and the types of retcons that truly infuriate the playerbase. I'd definitely say to vary it from video-to-video, because that's what will send Bizzard the clearest message. It's best to do your part to give (even if only by proxy) specific feedback.

    I also should note that I appreciate what you're saying. It's definitely all very articulate and sensible, and your sentiments are very fair. In spite of this point of disagreement, I generally think we're very much on the same page in many ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    The streamer market is bigger than the home entertainment(HBO, Netflix etc. combined). That is how serious this is.
    I highly, highly doubt that. Show me some figures.

  18. #218
    The harsh truth is that I sincerely doubt, sadly that even if Dragonflight prooves to be a better story/game than Shadowlands it will change 18 years of wow, wow is an ancient game, by the time it turns 20, people will have graduated collage and be in search of their jobs.

    This tells you how the times have changed.

    WoW 2 is more demanded than ever before and its because you cant reinvent the wheel after the now 9th expansion of wow and by the next one it will be the 10th. Thats 10 expansions worth of content for people to do, sounds great until you realize an entire chunk of that was removed because of FOMO promotions like prepatches, certain mounts/rewards and motivation with them.

    In short, blizzard shot themselves in the foot to proove it can be done and then said why am I bleeding subs.

    The answer is, raiding is an old, boring trope, mythic + is getting stale since Mythic was introduced in MoP. Difficulties of raid tiers mean nothing because people care less about doing raids in general to the point people actually struggled to make mythic groups in Shadowlands I might remind people.

    In short, Blizzards BEST strategy going forwards is, less is more, less raids, more dungeons, more world content, more story, more QoL grinds less same-old-same-old, if they just have content in general its better.

    This is where renown is the one salvation so far, bringing it back and improoving on it was a good decision, Renown is, a better rep grind system and frankly easier to get invested in.

    So, they just need to excell there and repeat the same system, continue using it, and make it even more prominent.

    Imho, reduce the raids value and make some patches that have minor raids rather than major ones, if one new world boss is the only raid the raiders get, thats fine.

    Better to have content every 2-3 months than a patch every 6 with virtually nothing to keep players invested.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    3.) Dismissing points 1.) and 2.) maybe more people hate lizard wizards and dragons. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Who would dare hate Blizzard's lizard wizards?
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Sylvanas will just give her own head to Tyrande.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    And just like the thread before it, let's back away from sexualizing Azshara and return to the original topic at hand.

  20. #220
    The extension only shows likes and dislikes from people using the plugin and then projects that onto the whole viewcount, an insanely silly and backwards idea; naturally people using the plugin to see dislikes are more likely to dislike themselves, skewing the data the plugin uses

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