Thanks but no thanks. One of the things I absolutely love about DF is that I can log in and do whatever the fuck I feel like doing without the constant pressure of doing what I don't want to.
Thanks but no thanks. One of the things I absolutely love about DF is that I can log in and do whatever the fuck I feel like doing without the constant pressure of doing what I don't want to.
Reforging/changing out stats on items in Cata was good & super simple, if you wanted more strength you just sacrificed another stat, no grinding, no token, no anything & it was cheaper than transmogging station. simple & something to do & satisfying.
Some more things that should be brought back is key-bag & rogues poison making & lockpicking.
You couldn’t reforge main stats, only secondary. The system was needed for ‘Hit’ points, as there wasn’t a lot of variety in gearpieces and people would otherwise struggle to get to the Hit cap. With each new expansion and lower ilvl gear this was a returning problem.
I'm sorry, did you actually play legion and bfa? Do you actually play this game?
Remember when in Legion people were farming Maw of souls? For what? Do you remember? remember RNG legiondaries? And remember that this whole problem only got solved by the last patch really?
Remember farming and then refarming azerite power, then essences then corruption?
Open your group finder and try to pug without good ilevel and other, mostly peer pressure stated prerequisites.
Competition in a guild is good. You want your guild members to be competitive with each other. But the healthy competition is not who can farm more maw of souls. But people fall into these traps. All the time. Competition does this.
You know what? Uncapped AP was the devs fault. We often forget, that the devs are just people. they make mistakes. They have told us many times that we, the players don't behave like they plan it or expect it, MOST OF THE TIME. imagine what they originally planned for legion. "Okay, so players gonna do some WQs, maybe some m+-es, and patiently just accumulate AP. Yeah, sure, exactly what happens usually in a super competitive environment, where everything is interconnected and trickels down from the super elit m+ player to casual Joe. Denying or ignoring tihs with a straight face is madness. Legion AP + BFA AP was a huge mistake the way it was implemented. When will we be brave enough to say this out loud? And now, 2 expacs later we have player fatigue. Who would have thought farming for 4 (6) years non stop on a threadmill could do that to players? suprisedpikachuface
I remember the anecdotes about blizzard having psychologists in the house. Maybe they fired them somewhere around wod, or I don't know. The game as a whole suffered huge in Legion and bfa (and shadowlands).
Last edited by Lei; 2022-12-16 at 03:12 AM.
It's both in varying degrees, actually. It's technically the same reason why we have "keep away from children" on cleaning product labels. I have little doubt in my mind that the underlying reason those systems were created was because higher-ups wanted a way to keep players in the game, day after day, and not just 2-3 days a week.
- - - Updated - - -
Are you serious right now? Is that actually your honest opinion? Are you for real? Players already grind for character power: Mythic+ and raid, or PvP. Those extra systems not only added even more grinds but also added grinds that were monotonous.
The whole drive of WoW is exploration and being socially immersed in the world. The grind of old still exists, you can grind gear on multiple difficulties while cosmetics remain extras. The difference between yesterday and today is the time it took to level, that's where your illusion of character power comes.
Sorry you can't find a numbers timesink, but most people prefer quality over quantity. Maybe a Korean MMO is more suitable for you.
from 4 things you mentiond WoD didnt have 3...
so even in your absolutely dishonest (bcs there is more to do) statement you already said yourself there is more to do than in WoD...
also, WoDs main issue was not really what was there at release, but that we did get nothing later, WoD had 1 major patch over 2 years... so if DF keeps good pacing and amount of patches it wont be "WoD 2.0"
Last edited by Lolites; 2022-12-16 at 06:46 AM.
yes, and also yes.
for an imagined advantage in a competition that only existed in their minds.Remember when in Legion people were farming Maw of souls? For what? Do you remember?
look obviously grind farming AP put more points into your weapon which resulted in an actual material benefit, but EVERYONE who was playing legion when it went live got all the AP they needed to fill out the nodes and 'complete' their weapon within a couple weeks through regular play.
if you felt compelled to hate your life because you were speed running maw of souls 97 times a day in order to maximize the 0.1% increase in your primary stat per additional point past having all the nodes filled, then that is 100% a you problem and has nothing whatsoever to do with a system which allows for an unlimited amount of incremental improvement.
i'm not saying it wasn't an issue that afflicted some people, it clearly was, but literally every single person who did grind runs on maw of souls to the point of hating the dungeon (or the game) did so because they were sick in the head and have personal mental issues, not because anything within the design space of the game remotely encouraged or required them to do that.
i get that some people have restraint problems, and i get that it is incumbent on game developers to keep that in mind when creating content to attempt to not trigger the mental illnesses of their customers, but there is a point at which catering to the physical flaws in the structure of some people's brains starts making it so that there is less game content for people who don't suffer from that affliction.
firstly, is that the extent of your argument? RNG legendaries?remember RNG legiondaries? And remember that this whole problem only got solved by the last patch really?
it wasn't a good system, and for the first year or so of legion it was a bad design implementation.
but they haven't done that since, and quite frankly people bitched and pissed and moaned just as much when they made legendaries targetable in SL, so the fact that there were undeniably issues with the RNG distribution system in legion is irrelevant since people on these forums will prolapse their vaginas with how hard they cry about literally *anything*
no, because i never did that. i played the game a fair bit, and i got AP and essence and corruption during the course of playing a fair bit.Remember farming and then refarming azerite power, then essences then corruption?
sometimes that meant it took me a week or maybe even more to match the numbers of somebody who made themselves hate the game in grinding it, and i simply didn't a single fuck when that happened.
ok do you just not even understand the basic concept being discussed here?Open your group finder and try to pug without good ilevel and other, mostly peer pressure stated prerequisites.
we're talking about systems that are NOT ilevel which progress character power - you're making the opposite point you think you are by framing it like that, which is ilevel being the only indication of character power progression.
there is a point at which the inability of other people to not experience crippling FOMO over literally anything that happens should no longer exclude me from having access to systems with a gradient over time.Competition in a guild is good. You want your guild members to be competitive with each other. But the healthy competition is not who can farm more maw of souls. But people fall into these traps. All the time. Competition does this.
You know what? Uncapped AP was the devs fault. We often forget, that the devs are just people. they make mistakes. They have told us many times that we, the players don't behave like they plan it or expect it, MOST OF THE TIME. imagine what they originally planned for legion. "Okay, so players gonna do some WQs, maybe some m+-es, and patiently just accumulate AP. Yeah, sure, exactly what happens usually in a super competitive environment, where everything is interconnected and trickels down from the super elit m+ player to casual Joe. Denying or ignoring tihs with a straight face is madness. Legion AP + BFA AP was a huge mistake the way it was implemented. When will we be brave enough to say this out loud? And now, 2 expacs later we have player fatigue. Who would have thought farming for 4 (6) years non stop on a threadmill could do that to players? suprisedpikachuface
- - - Updated - - -
follow up question: why do you have little doubt in your mind as to that motivation?
i know the slew of cliche responses to that rhetorical question, i read the forums i'm familiar with the tropes, but i'm curious on a more personal level what compels someone to think that.
the revenue stream is a subscription model... playing day after day or 2-3 days a week makes literally zero difference financially - so there's no financial reason based on the subscription system.
wow doesn't have microtransactions baked into the gameplay, nor advertised within the game, nor related in any way to how often one plays the game - so there's no financial reason based on secondary sales.
wow servers aren't secretly crypto mining rigs that operate faster the more people are logged in, so there's no financial gain outside the system of the game itself.
so, what's the 'little doubt' reason for devs giving a shit how often a given person plays the game per day? and particularly of note, how is that something the "higher ups" would be personally invested in?
Last edited by Malkiah; 2022-12-16 at 07:02 AM.
dragonflight is boring
- - - Updated - - -
oh no????????
First of all, the systems were never a needed FOMO grind. It was a opportunity to develop your charpower and get rewarded for spending time in the game.
I.E. Azerith amulett, my main got 101 lvl on it, my toons 85-87 without any grind, both were able to play endgame including mythic raids. But of course my main was stronger.
Raids were overtuned, and thats nothing else than frustration timegating. Look how many guild were struggling with jailor HC in the last Tier ? A lot of guilds broke on stuggling through HC content in SL. Including my alliance guild.
My main horde guild is able to clear mid-to end mythic raids, but that dont change the fact that some HC encounters were really overtuned and got nerfed by blizz xx times.
the systems were a possibility to develop your char a little (!) in soloplay. Raids are nice content, but you are depending on your guild/team/raid team. And im not one of those players that change a guild to "enjoy" that content for 1 more bosskill.
SL without any relevant solo content besides "go grind for cosmetics" and overtuned raids terminated my alliance guild, a guild that existed for many (!) years.
And SL with its lack of relevant content reduced my horde guild down to 60% active players because "there is nothing to do besides raiding and hitting a wall" outside of cosmetics.
Not because of the weird story, or the boring zones....nothing relevant to do. fill the GV raid your ID thats it, if you are not into cosmetics.
And DF will hit the same problemand it will get boring soon.
With WF/TF there was a little chance in every M+ to improve your char, with AP there was a little improvement for your char in every activity you did in the game. Now there is nothing left.
And well world players are really kicked in the balls
If anything i would say you are punished for opting out of M+. or not picking up a crafting profession for a gathering one. Raiding has become mostly irrelevant save tier sets. Except now you also can get free tier sets after a delay.
- - - Updated - - -
because the goal of every wow player is to quit eventually
WoW now is honestly the most fun I've had in the beginning of an expansion since before Legion. I love all of the quest lines, random lore content, rare and treasure hunting, mythic +, professions, cosmetics. And the best part...95% of it is OPTIONAL. Play the game how you want and not feel the need to log on 4 hours a day or risk getting behind. I already have a well geared alt which I would've never had this early before. Dragonflight is a fantastic start to a new era - especially with the new content coming in 10.0.5.
If you need a "carrot on a stick" to enjoy a game, you aren't really enjoying it imo. You're just chasing dopamine. If that's your thing, maybe mobile games are for you and not WoW.
You mean the mission table I always heard that "I only do them with 10 characters and it's easy money"? I don't even know how you were supposed to get the resources to do tables with multiples characters without using hours and hours of game time on that alone, not to mention having multiple characters leveled up and upgraded Garrisons. At which point would there be time to do something else in the game? Or was the point that WoD didn't have anything else?
Mission tables did not take much time at all, and typically you would have some followers getting you resources to turn it into a self-sustaining machine. The initial time investment to get the Garrisons to Tier 3 and have things up-to-snuff was definitely more involved, but typically it was like... five minutes per character per day once everything was running, at least in terms of farming gold.
For most of wows lifetime, it never had a neverending grind feature (like AP) and it worked very good for the most part. But, the game has had shite grind features beyond just AP, theres also been grinds for legendaries, conduits and more. All these systems, that require your attention most days of the week, all year, every year, tiers the playerbase out. I can understand the sentiment "progress my character" beyond gearing, but its a unhealthy approach within a MMORPG that aint nowhere near the "end".
Its much, much better to create a endgame were you are free to move around in the endgame sphere. do pvp, dungeons, raids, world content, proffs. Whatever you wish. There aint a shit grind that gotta have your attention. In previous xpacs you had to spend time to grind AP etc because if you didnt, you were fucked. So, unless you had ALOT of hours to play, you had to spend the limited time grinding a currency so you were ready for the content you wanted.
Now? Reach 70. Play the content you want. There aint a grind blocking you.
Guilds breaking down happens all the time. Its nothing new. No idea what thats supposed to mean here. The best guild i've ever been in died during WotLK, the most successfull era of wow. So its nothing but a personal analogy. Then again, SL was shit and not a whole lot played it. BUt lets not pretend SL didnt have certain grinds that were required before you were even close to relevant for m+, raids & proper pvp.
Overtuned raid is also bit on the side here, but I generally agree. Normal & HC is to difficult, especially normal shouldnt be tuned the way it has been tuned. In fact, if the raids overall were easier, they would naturally be much more pug friendly. As such, I think more players would approach raiding. Those that doesnt have a raid team, those that does but want to pug raid with alts outside of raid hours etc. I think easier raids above LFR, that have you invite people on your server, would be a big plus.
How are world players kicked in the balls? The world is literally filled to the brim with stuff to do. AP werent for world players. That AP werent worth anything unless you entered pvp or pve content.
- - - Updated - - -
YES! Its so refreshing to log in at night and just pick what I want to do. I can go and do whatever, it doesnt negativly effect my character. Previously, I had to log in and do certain tasks before I could actually do what I wanted to do. It tierd me out and made me quit the game.
Now I cant wait to log in.
And your last point there about "carrot on a stick" - Fully agree. Someone just need that hit. Wow shouldnt be that game, it never was supposed to be. Theres plenty of other games out there were grinding your ass off 24/7 all year long for miniscule % increase in player power.
This is a bit like saying Coca Cola has gotten stale over the years because it is just a drink and you can't chew it.
- - - Updated - - -
If you think there isn't a daily checklist in DF that you need to do to avoid falling behind, then you're just so casual and disconnected that you're unaware of game mechanics.
Covenant systems like soulbinds are literally rolled into talents now. And you'll be grinding and recrafting your "special embellished" crafted items every tier. They even cost more than legendaries did.
Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.