Dragonflight 10.X Patches & 11.0 Speculation Thread

[Berkilak]

I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable". We don't want to use up other lore threads for future eras(Expansions) super quickly.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable".

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

[Gurkan]

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

Seconding this.

[Hitei]

I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.

[Berkilak]

Let's not get bogged down with relitigating the quality of Shadowlands lore, unless it's directly relevant to the future.

[Utsuko]

So far my money is on Avaloren / Pirate expansion!

It is almost certain that the next expansion will be Avaloren and Tel'Abim.

I have read the Uldaman and Forbidden Reach books. It is explicitly stated that Captain Nightquall is preparing a gigantic fleet of pirates to return there. This famous book makes the direct link between Dragonflight and Avaloren by specifying that he is looking for something in the Dragon Isles before going there.

The Uldaman books give a lot of directions about Avaloren and its inhabitants with some revelations concerning the Titans and the Old Gods. So I imagine there will be a strong influence from the Void and perhaps from the Light.

Not to mention the role of the nagas which does not bode well.

It's very exciting, but I'm still a little disappointed that it won't be a revamp. So I'm changing my bet, I'm leaning more towards Avaloren/Tel'Abim!

[Cosmicpreds]

I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

Nah. They ain't gonna retcon this. They'll maybe have expansions stepping back on the Cosmic stuff a bit, like with DF, but the expansions focused on the Realms and Zereths will still occur.

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I don’t think any one should ever think of Zereths ever again the writers should drop that crap completely.

They're not going to.

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Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.

For now...

But they'll come around.

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Ahhh, we're talking about the stuff that came from the Oracle, I guess it clicked now, thanks!
It's more like an induction, right?
Zereth Mortis was a part of something called Shadowlands. We know there are other "Zereths", thus we assume there might be counterparts to Shadowlands?

It's confirmed that there is a Zereth for Order, and it is implied that there are Zereths for the other Cosmic Realms. Supposedly, yes, there is also a Zereth for Life, Light, Shadow, Order, and Disorder.

Zereth Mortis (The Keystone/Cornerstone of Death) is the workshop which made the Shadowlands and the Lords of Death.

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I don't think we should even think about the other Zereths for now. It should be a long while before a Zereth is visited upon. Also I am sympathetic to the "Well we're eventually gonna go to all the Zereths and its predictable". We don't want to use up other lore threads for future eras(Expansions) super quickly.

We'll get to other realms when we get to them. Idk if we'll go to the Realm of Order or not for 11.0, but if we do, then cool, but if not, then that's also okay. I just don't want to rush to the Void Lords or the Lords of Light so soon. Not before exploring the Realms of Order, Life, and more of Disorder first, I mean.

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I just think Zereth Mortis and SL in its entire suffered from poor development, which hurt both the stories and the patch cycles they were in. This Roadmap seems to make it so that both future realms and future Azerothian lands won't suffer the same mistake, and the Zereths will be better received hopefully as a result.

[Utsuko]

@Cosmicpreds can you stop fueling off-topic discussions or are you looking to get banned like Varodoc and Nymrhod?

[Cosmicpreds]

@Cosmicpreds can you stop fueling off-topic discussions or are you looking to get banned like Varodoc and Nymrhod?

How is it off topic? Part of the Zereth talk was part of the 11.0 speculation. I'm simply elaborating on things rq about the Zereths.

I'm not going on a tangent though. I think the Zereths are a good part in future expac speculations also. But you're right, this is also a 10.X speculation thread also, and we HAVE been discussing that also.

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If Alucard or another mod takes issue with it, I'll stop. And I know they've warned people in the past, so I do try to keep things moderate. I know what I'm doing, don't worry lol

[Cheezits]

Not really speculation but I do wonder if Emberthal and Sarkareth's general aesthetics should've been switched. It would've made more sense if the "Neltharion Wannabe" looked really similar to him, and Emberthal being Ebyssian's right hand would have more of an impact of she didn't look like a black dragon IMO.

[Cosmicpreds]

The problem with dragonriding is that it is extremely limited to dragons themselves and a few winged creatures using gravity. I like this system but in what world would it work with all the flying mounts in the game?
I mean...I love my bee and moth mount, how am I supposed to fly with it if a dragon is much faster? That would mean that, I don't know, 70-80% (number at random) of the mounts in the collection would be totally useless. I have no idea if they have any plans to fix this, but it's really frustrating to watch them wade through their mistakes by releasing systems that aren't thought to work as a whole.
It is not at all designed to work with all mounts in the game and yet we are heading towards a world where it will be available outside of the Dragon Islands.

This aged a bit poorly, even if just a bit.

[Le Conceptuel]

I know retcons aren't ideal. But I genuinely hope they retcon the crap out of all that additional cosmic lore they invented for Shadowlands.

Just hearing the word "Zereth" makes me nauseous.

Bred from flesh-pools of lingering trite,
Danuser's drivel did take flight
And cast a dreadful blight:
Zereth, Zereth, Zereth...
Lingered o'er banks of fair Lethe,
Which spanned the way of sare death.
'twas Death which drew great guffaws
From groans grown from scarce applause;
Once-evident the precedent of once-forgotten laws,
Such cheap turgid swill makes one take pause.

[Cosmicpreds]

Not really speculation but I do wonder if Emberthal and Sarkareth's general aesthetics should've been switched. It would've made more sense if the "Neltharion Wannabe" looked really similar to him, and Emberthal being Ebyssian's right hand would have more of an impact of she didn't look like a black dragon IMO.

Idk if it's just me, but Sarkareth is such a non threatening dude throughout the Campaign. Like, he is such a nothing threat, that the mini patch has a greater lasting foe than the main raid patch enemy.

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Bred from flesh-pools of lingering trite,
Danuser's drivel did take flight
And cast a dreadful blight:
Zereth, Zereth, Zereth...
Lingered o'er banks of fair Lethe,
Which spanned the way of sare death.
Death from which drew great guffaws
From groans grown from scarce applause;
Once-evident the precedent of once-forgotten laws,
Such cheap turgid swill makes one take pause.

Again, Cosmic Workshops don't hurt the lore per say, so long as they're done right. SL just did a very poor build up to it

[Le Conceptuel]

I'm a fan of perpetual mystery in fiction. The fate of the Blue Wizards and Ent-wives in Lord of the Rings. The driving force for the return of Honored Matres in Dune. Akavir and the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls. The answer to all of these questions is always going to be less satisfying than the mystery itself, and the presence of these mysteries creates the illusion than the fictional setting is more expansive than it actually is.

In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.

[Cosmicpreds]

As much as I'd like to speculate on the First Ones stuff and their progeny (AKA the Gods of the Cosmic Forces), I think we should go back to talking about 10.1.5 stuff or other speculatory things such as that to avoid another thread warning, or even worse, a ban.

[Worldshaper]

Zereths are perfectly fine, the other ones just don't need to be visited.

Disagree on this one.

- They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
- They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.
- Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.

[Le Conceptuel]

Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.

Latin is a tongue
Of beauty e'er profound.
But beware of overuse,
For such overuse abounds!
"Seek obscurer phrases, please!"
I'll say upon my knees,
For variety is key
To use it well, at least for me.

And though to say such things
May make me sound a geek,
Would it do you such great harm
To give a try to Greek?

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- They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
- They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.

It doesn't help that the Cosmic Forces are ill-defined in scope and yet simultaneously too narrow and limited in their prospects. There's not much done to distinguish them or give them any metaphysical weight; this is bad enough when they're reduced to categories of Pokémon, but it also much means that any expansions cognate to them them will invariably be a jaunt through throngs of deliberately one-dimensional morons whose entire personalities are limited to their respective one-note subsections of the Cosmic Force in question.

As a further point of agreement, it's hardly riveting worldbuilding when everything is categorized so easily to begin with. It preempts much in the way of variety or unique exploration of the manifold facets of the universe when each of those facets are slotted comfortably into their respective Cosmic Forces.

[Cosmicpreds]

Disagree on this one.

- They spoil the magic. Suddenly, the Emerald Dream isn't just this cool and ultimate expression or nature and life. It now plays second fiddle to "Zereth Vitae", lol.
- They become too formulaic for creation myth lore, given how there are supposedly six of them, and we know how at least one of them looks and operates. Future expansions will feel like an Excel sheet waiting to be filled.
- Their names are arguably worse than the Norse stuff in WoW. Vitae? Lumen? I'm not sure if these sound more like the ideas of a 12 year old aspiring author who just read Harry Potter for the first time and decided to give writing a shot, or a new line of smart home products found on Amazon. Either way, it's too damn on the nose to use well known Latin words for location names.

I mean, the Latin is most likely on purpose. Hell, Zereth is a biblical word also in a way. So it's a mixture of Bible shit + Latin in terms of naming.

And sure, it may be formulaic, but we actually don't know how each Cosmic Lord is made outside of the Eternal Ones. And the Emerald Dream isn't a second fiddle to Zereth Vitae. It, as apparently made by the Lords of Life, or at least the Progenitors' "life agents", is a realm that embodies Life in its apex, and is used to signify the Seasons of Spring and Summer (Mostly Spring) There seemingly are more realms like the Dream and Ardenweald too? Huh, how unique...

[Berkilak]

In connection to the Dwemer, there is actually an answer to what happened to them,—I'll elaborate if you're unfamiliar, but I'll leave it spoilered in case you ever want to read C0DA or the like yourself,—but it's esoteric enough that it feels like a mystery in itself: what is alleged to have happened (at least in Kirkbride lore) is that the Dwemer soul-stacked in the subgradient (though it's unclear if all individuals involved consented or not) to form Anumidium, which served as the embodiment of their philosophy of refutation. Similarly, although this is far more dubious, some have asserted that Akavair is probably the Kalpa succeeding the one in which the Nirn we're familiar with exists (Akavir being a product of the events of C0DA), rather than another continent.

I'm familiar. The difference being that there are crumbs provided in Elder Scrolls for us to piece together what happened ourselves, and even then, there are still competing theories with varying degrees of legitimacy. There's a huge difference between that and simply picking up a quest and having the NPC spout the entire lore bible at you, not relevant to the current narrative. World building can be done as an exercise unto itself (Elden Ring and Dragonflight being great examples, in their own ways), but it cannot be relied upon to substitute for an actual narrative when delivering a narrative is the primary goal.