1. #25181
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    Also is it confirmed they are actually Galakrond's kids?
    Probably not. I mean Onyxia is the aunt of Wrathion and not his sister so child is probably a more loose term with Dragons. Same with brother and sister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    Tbh i am quite done with Night Elves. I am suffering from night elf fatigue already.
    Probably the Nelfs as well because most of the time they just fet fucked by the story. Like most recently Maflurion essentially commiting sudoku just to let Ysera come back and become irrelevant as soon as the story moves away from the Dragon Isles.

  2. #25182
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I guess. I think that probably leans too close to Dragonscale Expedition though.

    My assumption is that unlike DF, where the Dragons showed up and went "hey, we're dragons, we're going to the dragon place, come help us look at dragon stuff". Hypothetical Avaloren is gonna be some place where we (that is, the heroes of the Horde and Alliance) don't really know what's at the place we're going to. Like Pandaria. And at that point why would the Wildhammer be the ones volunteering to lead the charge from Kalimdor west across the ocean? They've always been sort of homebodies as a group, protecting their own lands and occasionally sending a couple people for Alliance collaboration stuff.
    My guess, assuming this is the expansion coming up, is that something attacks from said storm (lmao rip Night Elf lands... again ) and we push the attack back but decide to punch through the storms to invade and pacify whatever attacked us.

    And Wildhammers are the tie-in for alliance characters and Dragonmaw are the tie-in for horde characters to do it.

  3. #25183
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    People thinking about the Roman Empire.
    Blizzard: We've got Roman Empire at home.
    The Roman Empire:




    Well, we haven't seen old Zin Azshari and Diremaul as they are depicted in the Chronicles (breath-takingly beautiful)



    But, we do have Roman Empire. They're called Ogres.
    In one kind of aesthetic that’s where the similarities end.

  4. #25184
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    They would be the premiere Alliance side choice when it is about flying somewhere difficult to access. That's kinda their thing.
    Absolutely and well deserved considering the entire faction going from being a critical core part of the Alliance during the 2nd War to being tucked away in the Hinterlands since Vanilla (Twilight Highlands doesn't count > )

    My Wildhammer Flight Master transmog is ready.

  5. #25185
    Brewmaster flan1337's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    That doesn't matter. My point is that Titans are clearly not invincible, and the more powerful the weapon, the more prone beings like the Titans are to getting killed. The Progenitor tier stuff should be the most powerful weapons/armor we've had canonically ngl.
    this is the part that confused me - arent the titans dead? Whats up with that? I know in legion they seemed live and imprisoned Sargeras in the throne room thingy. So why would they stop the imprisonment of Sargeras to come visit us again?

    I think we will see Keepers interactions in the next xpack but not the titans besides elune/azeroth.

  6. #25186
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The First Ones aren't Order aligned. They made Order, sure, but they're not aligned to the force itself in any major way. That's just silly. The Titans are the embodiments of Order, and therefore take from the Progenitors in certain, unique ways. However, even they lack every Progenitor gift, as the Progenitors granted the different Cosmic Pantheons with different types of gifts.
    The First Ones created the Zereths, created the Pantheons, gave them their jobs then got fired for sexual misconduct. Their design is perfectly balanced.

  7. #25187
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Design is balanced, and that is also why Order as a force exists, to aid in providing the design with a structure, to give the Cosmos law, etc.

    Hell, Order isn't even the only force that does this. Light and Death do the same thing, based on what's told in Zereth Mortis. That doesn't mean the First Ones are heavily connected with Order however.
    Since it's described that the Titans Ordered the universe, I have always taken this to mean they separated the forces into 6 distinct groupings, with the added context of Shadowlands being they did this under the instruction of the First Ones. So the Titans were made to embody Order to carry out the First One's design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Their physical forms were "destroyed" by Sargeras, but their spirits were still around (And were primarily placed within the Keepers). Sargeras and his Legion seemingly took the spirits from Ulduar, likely during early Legion, and were torturing said spirits into becoming part of Sargeras' new Dark Pantheon of Order. We saved them, and then they went to the Seat of the Pantheon, where their spirits were able to take the form of their regular physical selves (Likely due to it being full of Order energies, as it is their seat within the Dark Beyond).
    The Antorus storyline backs up the idea The Titans were made the same way the Eternal Ones were: At the sepulcher (or possibly Zereth Ordus) their physical bodies were created & loaded with an individual world soul. The world soul is vulnerable outside of a body. This is also why the Jailer's plan revolved around Argus' world soul being the only one in the Afterlife so it would be loaded into the New Arbiter's body.

  8. #25188
    The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

    You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or Death (Argus). Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized under a heirarchy defined by a (former) Titan. The Legion itself is an example of an army of Order, not representative of primal Chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos are actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos. But the Old Gods aren't Chaos, they're Shadow/Void for whatever reason.

    And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2023-10-05 at 05:41 PM.

  9. #25189
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    Yeah you haven't missed anything juicy.
    Thanks for the confirmation <3

  10. #25190
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    Well Titans and First Ones are both Order aligned in some way. Its definitely possible the Titans are connected to the First ones in a way that the other cosmic big boys aren't. Not saying they are the same thing, but perhaps the First Ones took special care in creating the Titans or whatever.
    The First Ones made all 6 forces. They aren't aligned with one in particular. There is no reason to believe the Titans have a special connection at this point. They're just the force we know the most about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

    You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or other such elements. Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized and ruled by a heirarchy dictated by a Titan. The Legion itself is an example of Order, not chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos is actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos.

    And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.
    Because all of those are really just parts of a larger whole. They aren't actually independent.

  11. #25191
    Could the origin of Incarnates be somehow related to the experiments conducted by Tyr? We know he was playing around with infusing different types of magic into dragons.

    Or perhaps <tinfoil hat on> it was a rebel Keeper Innaria who stole some of the experiments of Tyr, brougth them to Avaloren which contained raw primal energies originating from the fissure in Khaz Algar. There, she fed the dragons these primal energies, creating Incarnates in the process. While Odyn believes that the Heretics commited crimes against Innaria, maybe it was Innaria who recruited the Heretics? </tinfoil hat off>

  12. #25192
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

    You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or Death (Argus). Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized under a heirarchy defined by a (former) Titan. The Legion itself is an example of an army of Order, not representative of primal Chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos are actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos. But the Old Gods aren't Chaos, they're Shadow/Void for whatever reason.

    And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.
    well, it's not like the first ones inteded for the Legion to actually exist. The "true" nature of the demons IS chaos, with constant infighting and the corruption of others, but Sargeras usurped that natural state of demons

    Regarding necromancy: necromancy has no "school" you can do necromancy with shadow magic, fel, light, probably with arcane as well. Margrave Sin'dane talks about it in the questline of purifying lordaeron
    Last edited by Jaggler; 2023-10-05 at 05:54 PM.

  13. #25193
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaggler View Post
    well, it's not like the first ones inteded for the Legion to actually exist. The "true" nature of the demons IS chaos, with constant infighting and the corruption of others, but Sargeras usurped that natural state of demons
    We've rarely ever seen that side of demons. Almost every demon we encounter is part of the Legion in some way.

  14. #25194
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    The First Ones made all 6 forces. They aren't aligned with one in particular. There is no reason to believe the Titans have a special connection at this point. They're just the force we know the most about.
    I think it's more like the forces already existed, they were just all mixed together in big useless wads of swirling energy. With no clear distinction between anything. And the First ones took it upon themselves to create something out of that metaphysical muck, not unlike tending to a garden. I theorized about what would be the point of each of their creations:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    First: Zereth Mortis. The Creation of Afterlives. First Created to veil the world of living from the dead. Earliest protoforms are developed, as well as the apparatus to implant them with anima, and implant world souls in the bodies of gods (The Sepulcher of the First Ones)
    Second: Zereth Lumin. The Projector of Light. A cosmic canon that blasts the three layers of reality with light. The light allows the living to distinguish reality from illusion. This is where the Naaru were first designed.
    Third: Zereth Umbra. The Well of the Mind. The necessary opposite to Zereth Lumin. The unknown inner workings of all life, and also what allows the material & immaterial to unmake itself. This is where emotion & thought originate from.
    Fourth: Zereth Ordus. The Unseen Threads. Created to weave forces of energy throughout the universe without breaking down, which would eventually become known as the Arcane. And to create a barrier that would maintain linear time. This would be also be where the First Ones' shock troopers would be built, for the purpose of fending off anyone who tried to break down the First One's design in the realm of the living: The Titans.
    Fifth: Zereth Tamult. The Prison of Disorder. The Architects of Entropy worked to create a system that could manage cosmic horrors that were incompatible with an ordered universe. Much like the pathways of magic & time, the "twisting nether" was meant to keep free radicals as far from the First Ones inner workings as possible.
    Last: Zereth Vitae. The Incarnation of Life. Anima from the Great Cycle passes through here, where it is filtered to remove any detectable corruption before beginning the cycle of life again. This is where the Emerald Dream was invented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem I have with the Cosmology Chart and the representation of each army is that it's way too ambiguous and intertwined.

    You'd think the Cosmology is divided clearly, but it's not. You have Titans who are Order, but certain Titans also dabble in Chaos (Sargeras) or Life (Eonar) or other such elements. Or the Legion is supposed to be the epitomy of Chaos, but they're absolutely organized and ruled by a heirarchy dictated by a Titan. The Legion itself is an example of Order, not chaos. The ones who should be representing Chaos is actually the Old Gods, who aren't actually organized and whose corrupting influence spreads from them merely existing. Their minions also tend to fight each other, like we see with Blackrock Spire having Black Dragonflight and Elemental Lords fighting each other for control of the domain, even though they are both servants to the Old Gods. That is true chaos.

    And then you have the weird situation with Shadow/Void being commonly associated with both Death and Chaos. You have the 'Shadowlands' which is a property of Death. Necromancy and Warlock Afflictions are also both related to being 'Shadow' spells. The lines aren't really defined, and they're way too blurred to make any real sense of it. The Cosmic Forces don't really mean anything if we're just looking at the Old Gods or the Legion or the Titans as what they're supposed to be and what themes they represent.
    Why do you associate the old god with chaos? They had an empire; that's a very order-oriented thing to do. The Elemental Lords were fighting each other, then the Old Gods put a stop to that by enslaving them. The Elemental War happened before the Black Empire was a thing.

    The other thing is magic doesn't evenly equate to the cosmic forces at all. The Titans were given distinct abilities specifically to service their job, not unlike how the Eternal Ones' special abilities were present in their Prototypes, lacking a world soul entirely. This works in the same way a wizard might master shadow magic but that doesn't make him a pawn of the Void Lords.

    What is interesting is that the Old Gods, unlike the Void Lords, seem to be aware that the Titans & First Ones were responsible for separating these cosmic forces into distinct group & they know that their way is not the only way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Do you think most demons have a choice tbf? Lol Sargeras made his ultimatum very clear! Join him or die. Simple as that.
    This is true. Kiljaeden & Archimonde were basically tricked into signing up & their entire tribe was suddenly in the Burning Crusade. Which is why I'm pretty disappointed there's supposedly a "new" burning legion with new management. Seems like with Sargeras gone demons should become more benign & we could interact with that cosmic sphere under new pretense.
    Last edited by Ersula; 2023-10-05 at 06:00 PM.

  15. #25195
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We've rarely ever seen that side of demons. Almost every demon we encounter is part of the Legion in some way.
    Well yes, of course because demons have barely played a role since the fall of the legion in Antorus.

  16. #25196
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post

    Why do you associate the old god with chaos? They had an empire; that's a very order-oriented thing to do. The Elemental Lords were fighting each other, then the Old Gods put a stop to that by enslaving them. The Elemental War happened before the Black Empire was a thing.
    I mean if we look at the cosmology chart, the void and the Old Gods come from Shadow. Fel comes from Chaos and these two forces aren't even adjacent. Shadow is between order and death. it makes sense as well. There is no disorder in nothingness. In fact, Order and Shadow are right next to each other and share the Earth Aspect. Probably explaining why it was that the Earth Warder who was corrupted by the Void and again the Earth Incarnate. They are closest to it from a cosmological standpoint.

  17. #25197
    Scaleface come feed your flock I beg of you. Another month may kill me

  18. #25198
    Quote Originally Posted by Sydrache View Post
    Scaleface come feed your flock I beg of you. Another month may kill me
    Agreed, we need sustenance

  19. #25199
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Based around what Danuser said, the Progenitors created the Cosmic Forces, the Cosmic Pattern, and they allowed these forces to come into motion. The game itself actually further proves this with not just Firims stuff (With the Forces being made seemingly before the Pattern was drawn), but also with the Sepulcher (With us seeing the original fractal at the Heart of the Sepulcher), the Saezurah statements (Where she mentions the Forces and their specific purposes in the pattern), and the Cypher Lore Codex stuff (Where the First Ones encompass everything and nothing at one, where Light and Void require the pattern to exist, and where the First Ones placed different Forces in separate spheres as a way of balance and whatnot). So, it's not just a factor of "Death of the Author".
    I think we're describing the same thing with a difference of semantics: They took what was there, sent the Titans to divide it into different groups, then named those groups. So the Cosmic Sphere of order was only "created" once they were delegated as "Order". Before they were "Order" they were merely components. As in, the principal that energy can not be created or destroyed.

  20. #25200
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrad Wagner View Post
    Agreed, we need sustenance
    I literally started checking for the fresh news on this thread obsessively this is going to be a loooooong month.

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