1. #26381
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    So if Night Elves are hostile to anyone, that's not portraying them positively enough, but if Forsaken try to do something good, that's portraying them too positively? Do you think you might have a bias toward the night elves?
    It's the execution more than the idea itself. I don't think it's a terrible idea to write Forsaken trying to redeem themselves for what they did in BfA. The issue is that the way they decided to initiate that process was to immediately portray the Forsaken as selfless and virtuous while the night elves are portrayed as being stubborn and bitter in a way that feels disconnected from the severity of the atrocities the Forsaken committed.

    I'm not arguing just about the principle, but that the way they handled it was as lazy as possible. Some people might also find it offensive, but again, I don't want to get into that whole angle of the endless Teldrassil arguments.

  2. #26382
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    I agree with your take on it, though I think this has become exacerbated in recent years. Partly from the change in guard of the creative team, and partly because the story has become so mired in controversies and mistakes that it feels like an increasing portion of the story consists of nervous apologies to players. It's nice that they're open to feedback, it's worrying that they need feedback so often that they seem incapable of steering the ship alone.

    The Sylvanas loyalist scene from the heritage questline has the same problem, it's very obviously aimed at players to the point where she's referencing things that only make sense to the omniscient player that can read short stories on the website. Unsurprisingly, Danuser himself claimed credit for writing that scene.
    I think the largest issue with it being so much more apparent is that we are realistically dealing with problems that started in BFA and Shadowlands, and those expansions were themselves disjointed and suffering from internal issues.

    With that being said, I also think that Blizzard has a very distinctive cultural bent that tends to overlook just how terrible of a thing someone in their story just did.

    The former employee who was going on about how normal people from Goldshire undoubtedly see Sylvanas as the greatest hero Azeroth has ever known because she saved gram-grams soul from super hell comes to mind.

  3. #26383
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonn View Post
    No buildup is not the same as “I missed all the buildup.” I just recently replayed Tirisfal Glades and being a fan of the Forsaken in general, it’s pretty clear that she had plenty of buildup and background, a lot more than many other characters. Saying there’s “no buildup” is pretty wild. That being said, it’s a video game that is 30 years old (franchise) so if they don’t come up with brand new stuff sometimes… honestly what do you expect? This is one of the most infuriating things to me to hear from other gamers. Developing new content means introducing brand new events and plot turns and characters and feelings and ideologies sometimes. Not everything can have a 2, 5, 10, whatever number of years to buildup when we’ve already been going through those established bits for 20 years.
    Bruh. The character of Lilian in Tirisfal Glades isn't the same as it is here.

    Next you're going to tell me there's build up in Scholomance too.

  4. #26384
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Bruh. The character of Lilian in Tirisfal Glades isn't the same as it is here.

    Next you're going to tell me there's build up in Scholomance too.
    I think it's consistent progression considering her questlines in BFA.

    Ironically the Night Elves & Forsaken can bond over their shared victim complex.

  5. #26385
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Bruh. The character of Lilian in Tirisfal Glades isn't the same as it is here.

    Next you're going to tell me there's build up in Scholomance too.
    To be perfectly fair, there very much is a good story to be had from Lillian Vosses introduction of a vengeance filled monster consumed with rage for what happened to her transforming over the years to someone who has moved past that anger and now knows how to help others in the same situation.

    Like, on a personal level, Voss knows a thing or two about rage, distrust, and trauma.

  6. #26386
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonn View Post
    No buildup is not the same as “I missed all the buildup.” I just recently replayed Tirisfal Glades and being a fan of the Forsaken in general, it’s pretty clear that she had plenty of buildup and background, a lot more than many other characters. Saying there’s “no buildup” is pretty wild. That being said, it’s a video game that is 30 years old (franchise) so if they don’t come up with brand new stuff sometimes… honestly what do you expect? This is one of the most infuriating things to me to hear from other gamers. Developing new content means introducing brand new events and plot turns and characters and feelings and ideologies sometimes. Not everything can have a 2, 5, 10, whatever number of years to buildup when we’ve already been going through those established bits for 20 years.
    This is about the portrayal of both races, not just Voss. All the night elf NPCs in the storyline are portrayed in a negative light. There's no room for interpretation here because Voss declares the message at the end of the questline: we want to help you, so get over yourselves already and let us help.

    Again, I'm not arguing against this from a primary viewpoint of it being a bad moral, it's that they go about it in the most heavy-handed fashion that can't just have Voss be displayed positive, but everyone else as ignorant and in need of education from her. I don't think it's very good writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    The former employee who was going on about how normal people from Goldshire undoubtedly see Sylvanas as the greatest hero Azeroth has ever known because she saved gram-grams soul from super hell comes to mind.
    What was this?

  7. #26387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    I did this quest on the PTR and really did not enjoy how it was framed, even as someone that's not really a huge night elf fan or wants to get into the genocide debate. Wowhead doesn't cover the whole thing in full so I'll just throw the description into spoilers just in case.

    Voss is framed as an infallible person of kindness and justice while the night elves are portrayed as unnecessarily cruel and mean-spirited against her. You meet up with Shandris and Voss, and they're already portrayed as comrades because hey, you can't trust modern WoW to do proper buildup for anything that isn't a cosmic threat.

    Shandris begins acting more pointed and distressed and then runs off, and you read her journal that Wowhead describes, which makes it seem like she can't truly forgive the Forsaken. Voss acts perfectly polite and nice about this trying to help her. She almost feels like a totally different character. The whole while she's trying to help, all the dryads and keepers of the grove of the such are expressing their distrust and dislike of her.

    Then it's revealed it's a nature spirit that got released earlier in the questline that's stoking Shandris's negative feelings, AKA you can just resolve the issue by killing something. You both save her, and then Voss lectures all the gathered night elf forces about how they need to be more open-minded and tolerant of people trying to help them. This is written so heavy-handed that they have all the dryads and such emoting of looking away in embarrassment and shame, in case the message wasn't smashed into your skull at this point.

    It's the same problem over and over again: no buildup, just jumping to the end point the writers want. The Forsaken are being portrayed as morally superior to the people they massacred the same time we're seeing them try working together for the first time. Danuser and company cannot write a proper followup to the events of Battle for Azeroth, because the only outcome they want is everyone is best friends. We're supposed to handwave everything that happened so we can focus on cosmic shenanigans because faction strife gets in the way of that. If these writers did Warcraft 3, the humans and orcs would have become best friends off screen before even sailing to Kalimdor.
    odd - are they doing this to write them into the new tree story? Why...? It would be more interesting to have this group break off and oppose the new tree/undead/NE. While I think people tend to be a bit silly with saying WoW has too much friendships but at this rate there is too much unrealistic friendships.

  8. #26388
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    This is about the portrayal of both races, not just Voss. All the night elf NPCs in the storyline are portrayed in a negative light. There's no room for interpretation here because Voss declares the message at the end of the questline: we want to help you, so get over yourselves already and let us help.

    Again, I'm not arguing against this from a primary viewpoint of it being a bad moral, it's that they go about it in the most heavy-handed fashion that can't just have Voss be displayed positive, but everyone else as ignorant and in need of education from her. I don't think it's very good writing.



    What was this?
    His tweets of it don't exist anymore, AFAIK, but yeah. I'm not going to include a name, because honestly I don't want people going and bugging the guy. Especially since he wasn't involved with the story. But like I said, I think it's more of an internal culture problem than a individual problem when you pair it with the constant jokes and teldrassil comments and the way the story wrapped up. I think if people aren't willing to move past a singular event, then they should likely move on from the game. They got their vision, and you can either go along with it or not.


  9. #26389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Bruh. The character of Lilian in Tirisfal Glades isn't the same as it is here.

    Next you're going to tell me there's build up in Scholomance too.
    That portion of Forsaken story is relevant, I’m not talking only about that character, and when I said I was a fan of the Forsaken story in general, I was referring to several expansions worth of Forsaken lore. So you’re really missing the point of what I was saying here lol. I was merely pointing to a very early bit of background, not trying to summarize every piece of it bit by bit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    This is about the portrayal of both races, not just Voss. All the night elf NPCs in the storyline are portrayed in a negative light. There's no room for interpretation here because Voss declares the message at the end of the questline: we want to help you, so get over yourselves already and let us help.

    Again, I'm not arguing against this from a primary viewpoint of it being a bad moral, it's that they go about it in the most heavy-handed fashion that can't just have Voss be displayed positive, but everyone else as ignorant and in need of education from her. I don't think it's very good writing.



    What was this?
    I do get what you’re saying. But I respectfully disagree. I love Night Elves too, but they’re mortal and imperfect much like any other race haha. I actually appreciate this story and feel like it falls right in line with what I’ve been seeing of both races since BfA. Like this was an expected trajectory for a people in so much pain, as opposed to it coming from nowhere. I suppose that’s just a difference in what we each see and read into. I saw the strings being laid out and tied together a long time coming, but if you don’t view the story in the same way, I can totally see why it would feel out of nowhere and extra heavy handed. I think a lot of people jump to those conclusions too easily, but that being said, Blizz does do that sometimes lol so you’re not wrong.

    I actually feel like that whole feeling of Voss to the NElves is really more about a couple specific Night Elf characters and probably didn’t need to be generalized to the entire people. Like Tyrande really needs to hear that shit but maybe not ALL the NElves lol
    Last edited by Ebonn; 2023-10-08 at 11:43 PM.

  10. #26390
    Quote Originally Posted by PotHockets View Post
    While I do think it's pretty obviously a reference to Khaz Algar that doesn't make it anything other than speculation at this point. I'm kinda hoping it is the other side of Azeroth though because I've been wanting to see that for like 15 years now.
    Sure but there was no reason to think there was an "other side of Azeroth until we see the actual globe in Legion." I have to wonder what actual in-universe astrologers thought, because those globes in Titan-facilities that put EK & Kalimdor on opposite sides of the planet would have made no sense scientifically.

    "Hey Thorim, the day-night cycle doesn't match up with your globes, man."

  11. #26391
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Sure but there was no reason to think there was an "other side of Azeroth until we see the actual globe in Legion." I have to wonder what actual in-universe astrologers thought, because those globes in Titan-facilities that put EK & Kalimdor on opposite sides of the planet would have made no sense scientifically.

    "Hey Thorim, the day-night cycle doesn't match up with your globes, man."
    I have to say I agree. I am going to be really disappointed if the new areas we get are not on already accessible maps. Either revamp or underground. One of the two. If we get ANOTHER new continent and this was one was somehow obscured from even the titans...I am going to be disappointed. The Dragon Isles being 'hidden, even from us" was one step too far; In a Post-Pandaria world one hidden continent was enough. The story already disrespects the average players intelligence too much to buy the same concept repeated again and again....although with AP Grinds it took 3 tries before they stopped so maybe this will be the third time where Blizzard learns to fucking stop doing the same thing over & over.

  12. #26392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    I have to say I agree. I am going to be really disappointed if the new areas we get are not on already accessible maps. Either revamp or underground. One of the two. If we get ANOTHER new continent and this was one was somehow obscured from even the titans...I am going to be disappointed. The Dragon Isles being 'hidden, even from us" was one step too far; In a Post-Pandaria world one hidden continent was enough. The story already disrespects the average players intelligence too much to buy the same concept repeated again and again....although with AP Grinds it took 3 tries before they stopped so maybe this will be the third time where Blizzard learns to fucking stop doing the same thing over & over.
    To me, this is just a sentiment of players who are already done with WoW. I mean honesty what do you expect them to do, keep rehashing old places and conflicts? I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but it just seems like common sense to me - you need new content to keep a game going. It’s not really an insult to anyone’s intelligence to add more continents. And there’s magic in this world and limited transport, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense lol.

    I fully expect and hope for more new undiscovered continents. A core piece of this game lies in exploration, and new places to explore fulfills a big part of that fantasy for many players.

    If you don’t want new settings, then do you really just want them to keep updating places we’ve already been to and battled through dozens of times? I can’t imagine anything killing the game’s player base more quickly. I get that revamp is a hot button right now, but a revamp can only be so much, and would still leave a lot to be desired afterward.

    Edit for clarity: I ALSO want a revamp. There are places I miss, and would love to see redone, and stories that I would love to see follow ups on also. I just can’t imagine that any of it would be enough to satiate anyone for very long, and personally I would hope for new content also to explore.
    Last edited by Ebonn; 2023-10-09 at 01:10 AM.

  13. #26393
    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonn View Post
    To me, this is just a sentiment of players who are already done with WoW. I mean honesty what do you expect them to do, keep rehashing old places and conflicts? I’m sure I’m in the minority here, but it just seems like common sense to me - you need new content to keep a game going. It’s not really an insult to anyone’s intelligence to add more continents. And there’s magic in this world and limited transport, just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense lol.
    Quality over Quantity. BFA proved that. Having new areas for the sake of content when dozens of zones on atleast 3 continents are full of outdated and sometimes buggy content demonstrate a lack of quality and polish from a company that used to be known for it. The addition of content isn't the insult either, its the method of dispensing. If the developer(s) are so mind numbingly lazy that they cannot even begin to create a unique spin on a continent then it isn't worth it. We have had shrouds over 2 continents and one major zone (Suramar) since 2004. Maybe we try a different method? Nazjatar literally rose from the sea. That makes sense. Was cool. Wasn't shrouded in mist/darkness. The Shadowlands, although arguably a pretty shit expac, were accessed via a break between realities. Thats unique.

    I don't think its pessimistic or negative to suggest that its lazy to just say "Hey this continent that even actual GODS that literally shaped our planet did not know about suddenly appeared via Mists/Darkness/Storm/Magical Elf Shield."

    Warcraft thrives with unique concepts and polish. It stagnates with rehashed plots and bugs.

  14. #26394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paula Deen View Post
    Quality over Quantity. BFA proved that. Having new areas for the sake of content when dozens of zones on atleast 3 continents are full of outdated and sometimes buggy content demonstrate a lack of quality and polish from a company that used to be known for it. The addition of content isn't the insult either, its the method of dispensing. If the developer(s) are so mind numbingly lazy that they cannot even begin to create a unique spin on a continent then it isn't worth it. We have had shrouds over 2 continents and one major zone (Suramar) since 2004. Maybe we try a different method? Nazjatar literally rose from the sea. That makes sense. Was cool. Wasn't shrouded in mist/darkness. The Shadowlands, although arguably a pretty shit expac, were accessed via a break between realities. Thats unique.

    I don't think its pessimistic or negative to suggest that its lazy to just say "Hey this continent that even actual GODS that literally shaped our planet did not know about suddenly appeared via Mists/Darkness/Storm/Magical Elf Shield."

    Warcraft thrives with unique concepts and polish. It stagnates with rehashed plots and bugs.
    I 100% agree with your last sentence there, I just am very confused at how you arrived there with everything else you said lol. Also you’re saying that they didn’t know about nor could they get to this new place, but that does not apply to what we are expecting will come next. If it IS a new continent, Avaloren, Khaz Algar, whatever, then the “gods” did know about it and at least two beings made it there lol.

    So again I agree with your last sentence, I suppose we just have very different ideas on how we get there. Personally I think new places to discover and explore on the map makes perfect sense, fits into WoWs themes and history well, and is expected when they’ve always hinted at lands beyond since I can remember, as far back as the original Orcs vs Humans. I just genuinely do not get the concept of wanting new content but not expecting, as a human player, not a character, that some continents would have to be added with a reason they were hidden or lost or otherwise unreached until “now.”

    Nazjatar made sense. Dragon Isles made sense. Pandaria made sense. Other lands being unreachable beyond an intense and magical storm filled with monsters also makes sense. I get not liking it, sure, but saying it doesn’t make sense or that it’s just bad because you want something else, that itself doesn’t make much sense to me.

    Also, finally: Titans are not gods, they are just beings with typically more power than Azerothian mortals.

  15. #26395
    One thing I've noticed consistently is people seem to decide characters, factions and even lore just freezes exactly at a moment they like/prefer and refuse to acknowledge any of the years of content or growth after. It's why you see insane Sylvanas psychos who in their head canon, is still behaving exactly as she did in WotLK. Every time we have any development or progress with characters you have people come out of the wood work to talk about how Blizzard is ignoring their own lore because characters are behaving differently than in their debut expansion pack 15 years ago.

  16. #26396
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    His tweets of it don't exist anymore, AFAIK, but yeah. I'm not going to include a name, because honestly I don't want people going and bugging the guy. Especially since he wasn't involved with the story. But like I said, I think it's more of an internal culture problem than a individual problem when you pair it with the constant jokes and teldrassil comments and the way the story wrapped up. I think if people aren't willing to move past a singular event, then they should likely move on from the game. They got their vision, and you can either go along with it or not.

    I don't think that employee even understood the story at all. Since we learn that not only did Sylvanas not save anybody, she actually made it so more people go to superhell.

  17. #26397
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I don't think that employee even understood the story at all. Since we learn that not only did Sylvanas not save anybody, she actually made it so more people go to superhell.
    ...In order to ultimately fix it. You can blame her for being naïve enough to believe the Jailer, but her goal was to fix something that had no other feasible solution. Once Argus was killed, everything was borked.

    But regardless, the conversation is about whether the Forsaken are "allowed" to help the Night Elves. Lilian is not Sylvanas. Not to mention, alongside Lilian in the Dream is Delaryn: Saying Delaryn trying to help the night elves is "disrespectful" to night elves, is ridiculous. Of course Delaryn & the Forsaken changed at Darkshore would want to help the new world tree & they have every right to.

  18. #26398
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayRule View Post
    One thing I've noticed consistently is people seem to decide characters, factions and even lore just freezes exactly at a moment they like/prefer and refuse to acknowledge any of the years of content or growth after. It's why you see insane Sylvanas psychos who in their head canon, is still behaving exactly as she did in WotLK. Every time we have any development or progress with characters you have people come out of the wood work to talk about how Blizzard is ignoring their own lore because characters are behaving differently than in their debut expansion pack 15 years ago.
    HARD agree!

    - - - Updated - - -

    I forgot to quote, but to Huth’s last post: I disagree, I think to an average human on Azeroth, they would t know shit about what’s actually going on. All they have to hear, one single time, is that Sylvanas got sent to Hell to release the spirits of people wrongfully places there, and no amount of horrors would top the sentiment to an individual that thinks she saved their granpappy or granmammy.

  19. #26399
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    ...In order to ultimately fix it. You can blame her for being naïve enough to believe the Jailer, but her goal was to fix something that had no other feasible solution. Once Argus was killed, everything was borked.
    Sure, she claims she was trying to fix it. But she never actually accomplished anything towards that end, so the Goldshire peasant still has no reason to feel grateful.

  20. #26400
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Sure, she claims she was trying to fix it. But she never actually accomplished anything towards that end, so the Goldshire peasant still has no reason to feel grateful.
    I think they're mostly talking about her helping fight the Jailer at the Sepulcher, which she did do. Canonically it was Jaina, Bolvar, Uther & Sylvanas who beat the Jailer.

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