1. #2701
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeram View Post
    Chromie becomes new aspect of the Bronze An Nozdormu Becomes Murozond But is swayed to become a friendly ? or some shit idk lmao
    God I hope not I can’t stand Chromie anymore.
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  2. #2702
    I would be really happy if both Iridrikon and Vyranoth manage to stay alive but have their power lessen than only one remaining alive and its alignment changed. Their ideals matter in this conflict and they shouldn't be changed. They are interesting character and this expansion should carry on most of its interesting cast (let it be visually, story based or character based).

    One way they could also accomplish this is the same way they've ended wc3 they need to face off a common evil (let's say dark Tyr) and realize that what corruption they see in their foe is kind of a necessary strength because alone they couldn't have win against their common foe. Then they go their way promising to remain ever watchful of the aspect and to bring them down if they ever stand against them when they will rid the planet of the evil titan watchers Odyn or some other shenanigans.

  3. #2703
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    God I hope not I can’t stand Chromie anymore.
    Well, she still improved from her early days of time schizofrenia that prevented her from correctly recalling events and people.

    Not sure about her chances, there is a pretty strong indication that this infinite dragon we team up with in time travel quest chain is her future/alternate version.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I would be really happy if both Iridrikon and Vyranoth manage to stay alive but have their power lessen than only one remaining alive and its alignment changed. Their ideals matter in this conflict and they shouldn't be changed. They are interesting character and this expansion should carry on most of its interesting cast (let it be visually, story based or character based).
    Not sure about them being interesting. They are a very cookie cutter villains with known goals that just look cool. Peeps were simply tired with overarching schemes and "there was someone behind the final boss" meme. Rash was actually liked just becasue how simple she and her plans were past SL. No Jailer-like 5D chess moves. And their ideals are to kill every Titan spawn (which basically means us and so many other races) and wreck Azeroth with elements, so dunno what's so good and worth keeping about it.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-03-19 at 07:32 PM.
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  4. #2704
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post

    Not sure about them being interesting. They are a very cookie cutter villains with known goals that just look cool. Peeps were simply tired with overarching schemes and "there was someone behind the final boss" meme. Rash was actually liked just becasue how simple she and her plans were past SL. No Jailer-like 5D chess moves. And their ideals are to kill every Titan spawn (which basically means us and so many other races) and wreck Azeroth with elements, so dunno what's so good and worth keeping about it.
    It's pretty much about having memorable designs and easy to understand goals and origins that doesn't need to take a dump on established lore to exist. That's all it takes nowadays.
    But yeah "I prefer the void over titans so I'll kill everyone even remotely related to titans" doesn't strike me as interesting and memorable. And if we empower the aspects again, there isn't really a good position for them to occupy if they "change their alingment and entire personality" but stay as cool looking monster dragons.

  5. #2705
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Not sure about them being interesting. They are a very cookie cutter villains with known goals that just look cool. Peeps were simply tired with overarching schemes and "there was someone behind the final boss" meme. Rash was actually liked just becasue how simple she and her plans were past SL. No Jailer-like 5D chess moves. And their ideals are to kill every Titan spawn (which basically means us and so many other races) and wreck Azeroth with elements, so dunno what's so good and worth keeping about it.
    I would personally be inclined to argue that it's a tad beyond the simplicity of their objectives, but moreso that their objectives are sensible and consistent within themselves—the Jailer's convoluted plan, in addition to clearly having no pre-determined endgame on a Doylist level by the time Shadowlands was released, or even by the time it ended, was simply lacking in any consistent motivation. The Primal Incarnates' motivations, in addition to their simplicity and explicitly being stated, are subject to a degree of internal consistency and sensibility that was wholly lacking from not merely the Jailer, but the entire rogue's gallery of Shadowlands.

    I also think you're confusing value on a Doylist and Watsonian level re: the Incarnates' objectives. I believe Skildar's suggestion was that the Primal Incarnates ought to stick around on account of that their ideology fills a sensible niche within the new Cosmic Forces arc—it absolutely makes sense that a number of Azerothians of non-Titanic extraction have become disillusioned with the Titans, even if they are generally benevolent in spite of their occasionally-iffy necessary evils, and that certain Azerothians would seek to represent Azeroth alone. It also helps to add more convolution, as it means that the generic modern fantasy solution of "FWEEDOM GUD EVERY1 W/ ANY ULTERIOR OBJECTIVES BAD" will itself be subject to a degree of scrutiny instead of blindly heralded as the correct option subject to universal praise like it was when Illidan decided to fry Xe'ra for saying "hey, maybe you shouldn't potentially risk the entire existence of the universe as we know it so you can stay a literal demon because you think becoming a better person inexorably translates to an absolute loss of autonomy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    It's pretty much about having memorable designs and easy to understand goals and origins that doesn't need to take a dump on established lore to exist. That's all it takes nowadays.
    I'd also add that they're remotely entertaining to watch—or at least Fyrakk is. The fact that I can actually name even a single distinguishing personality trait I gathered from each one in the cinematic trailer for 10.1 is another remarkable point of superiority to the likes of the Jailer.

    On the topic of designs, although I assume you're talking about their fairly distinct and interesting-looking visage forms, I'd assert that the only one who had a particularly appealing non-visage form to me was Raszageth. This is just a matter of personal opinion, but I think that of their Proto-Dragon forms, the only one that really seemed very unique was Raszageth's.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-03-20 at 07:46 PM.

  6. #2706
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    God I hope not I can’t stand Chromie anymore.
    That would be so uninspiring.

    Now Iridikron somehow becoming the Balck Aspect after being touted as the most dangerous and powerful of the Primal Incarnates would be far more interesting.

    Esp the effect on Wrathion and Sabellion and the drama that could ensure. Not to mention the Drscthyr’s black flight essence.

  7. #2707
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Now Iridikron somehow becoming the Balck Aspect after being touted as the most dangerous and powerful of the Primal Incarnates would be far more interesting.
    Precisely just as "interesting" as N'zoth joining Army of the Light.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  8. #2708
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Precisely just as "interesting" as N'zoth joining Army of the Light.
    Well I dont know about that.

    We know much more about the blackflught politics, and hints on the Inca tes connection to the aspects, the power struggles for black aspect to make such a change far more interesting than a run of the mill alignment switch.

    Complexities with Iridikron's fellow primal, complexities with Wrathion who would get more interesting development through this (potentially), Aspect politics, Incarnate po,critics, Dracthyr po,itics.

    N'Zoth joining the army of light hust has shock value, what o
    Else can it do that would be as interesting without inventing new lore that is just as abstract an unreliable as most of the cosmic powers lore has been.

    At least we have a lot more surrounding Wrathion, the Aspects, the Primals etc yo make such a cha ge potentially interesting and more than just an over used evil guy turned good or turned another direction, I mean he could end up being an anti hero too... it's just got a lot more potential than N'zoth going light for all the extraordinary implications to cosmic lore that brings, which would just be largely interesting to lore nerds whid be the only ones to care while not really touching anyone or being relatable to anyone. What if the physical constant of the universe changed? - fascinating to a physics nerd, d of little interest to everyone else, whid care more about whether Harry got with Meghan or Obama's surprise list brother being a string right winger but choosing after a string of events to side with the demos after nearly defeating them /shrug. Which do you think most people would be able to relate to or be more interested? I didnt say should be, but would be?

  9. #2709
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post

    On the topic of designs, although I assume you're talking about their fairly distinct and interesting-looking visage forms, I'd assert that the only one who had a particularly appealing visage form to me was Raszageth. This is just a matter of personal opinion, but I think that of their Proto-Dragon forms, the only one that really seemed very unique was Raszageth's.
    A fair point. I'm mostly talking about what I read and hear from others. Personally I'm much like you. Raszageth looked cool and died way too soon.

  10. #2710
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    A fair point. I'm mostly talking about what I read and hear from others. Personally I'm much like you. Raszageth looked cool and died way too soon.
    Honestly I found Razsageth's constant yelling and screechy voice kinda grating. The actual design was cool, and the fight against her was visually quite stunning. But really I don't think I would be able to stand her long term. It would in that case have to be as part of a team or council or some sort. Maybe if all the incarnates were alive, and Razsageth only took 1/4 of the screentime.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #2711
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Honestly I found Razsageth's constant yelling and screechy voice kinda grating. The actual design was cool, and the fight against her was visually quite stunning. But really I don't think I would be able to stand her long term. It would in that case have to be as part of a team or council or some sort. Maybe if all the incarnates were alive, and Razsageth only took 1/4 of the screentime.
    She was the most impulsive of the Incarnates. Technically she could of changed but alas she would not listen.
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  12. #2712
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    I'm collecting old white armor/weapons from vendors, not that I'm expecting blizzard to HD all of that. Does anyone know if there's a list of those vendors somewhere? I've got the ones from SW so far :P

    I did a quick lazy search but couldn't find what was I was looking for.
    Last edited by Grimbold21; 2023-03-20 at 03:38 PM.

  13. #2713
    Considering the Old Gods have been one-note in regards to serving the whims of the Void Lords/going "full chaos" mode, why wouldn't N'zoth joining the Army of the Light be interesting? It gives him agency and makes him more interesting than "servant of the higher power" like Ra-den and Odyn are more interesting than "just Keepers lol"

    I would kill for a Void character that is actually depthful. Even Azshara is currently MIA and seems to still be serving the Void even after escaping N'zoth (as per the 10.0.7 lore book that says she is waiting in the "veil" of Void)

  14. #2714
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Honestly I found Razsageth's constant yelling and screechy voice kinda grating. The actual design was cool, and the fight against her was visually quite stunning. But really I don't think I would be able to stand her long term. It would in that case have to be as part of a team or council or some sort. Maybe if all the incarnates were alive, and Razsageth only took 1/4 of the screentime.
    Personality-wise, you're not wrong. I was speaking mostly in regards to her design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Considering the Old Gods have been one-note in regards to serving the whims of the Void Lords/going "full chaos" mode, why wouldn't N'zoth joining the Army of the Light be interesting? It gives him agency and makes him more interesting than "servant of the higher power" like Ra-den and Odyn are more interesting than "just Keepers lol"

    I would kill for a Void character that is actually depthful. Even Azshara is currently MIA and seems to still be serving the Void even after escaping N'zoth (as per the 10.0.7 lore book that says she is waiting in the "veil" of Void)
    I really don't think fundamentally swapping around their nature provides depth. The issue to me seems to be a lack of depth on the presentation of the Void as a Cosmic Force. Why not simply flesh out the Void more and assign its agents certain facets or subfactions to give them depth instead of totally changing them in a completely nonsensical way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    A fair point. I'm mostly talking about what I read and hear from others. Personally I'm much like you. Raszageth looked cool and died way too soon.
    I'd say I could do without her personality, but her design was certainly a tad more unique than the fairly generic "elemental dragon" designs of the other Primal Incarnates. She earnestly lived up to the name of "primal" on account of her appearance, whereas the other ones don't especially stand out as anything other than elemental Proto-Dragons. Personality-wise, Fyrakk is probably the best so far in that he's got a bit more of a presence than Iridikron and Vyranoth, both of whom are not very dissimilar from a good chunk of the range of villains we've had recently, even if they are certainly far more tolerable than their predecessors, but isn't quite as much the Saturday Morning Cartoon villain as Raszageth could be.

  15. #2715
    So sparks are now optional as of 10.1
    You get the base level item with just the normal mats for all available s1 crafted gear
    Sparks are needed to boost it to s2 ilvl

    This means catch up will be faster and is very useful for leveling professions faster now that you can craft a full set of gear as soon as you cap and net about 27 skill points for professions like tailoring

    Add that to the fact lfr requirements will likely not be too far beyond that ilvl and the increased output compared to now will have even the 10.1 outdoor content easy


    Also the 6 weeks of timewalking is great for getting more alts ready and even getting gear on your mains

  16. #2716
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Considering the Old Gods have been one-note in regards to serving the whims of the Void Lords/going "full chaos" mode, why wouldn't N'zoth joining the Army of the Light be interesting? It gives him agency and makes him more interesting than "servant of the higher power" like Ra-den and Odyn are more interesting than "just Keepers lol"

    I would kill for a Void character that is actually depthful. Even Azshara is currently MIA and seems to still be serving the Void even after escaping N'zoth (as per the 10.0.7 lore book that says she is waiting in the "veil" of Void)
    N'Zoth doesn't need "agency", he's a literal puppet created by the Void Lords, we already know everything about the origin stories of the Old Gods. The Old Gods are not meant to be independent or have agency, they're just means to look badass and frightening.

  17. #2717
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    N'Zoth doesn't need "agency", he's a literal puppet created by the Void Lords, we already know everything about the origin stories of the Old Gods. The Old Gods are not meant to be independent or have agency, they're just means to look badass and frightening.
    The old gods have almost always been this old enemy that incarnated evilish corruption. To the point where in cataclysm the twilight hammer cult is just a group of mad people that lost their mind and wants to see the world end.

    That is in no way relatable, it's ok to have mind controlled groups like such but they have to useful for a greater plan otherwise it's just nonsense. Up until now the purpose was that letting the earth rot would make Aeroth a servant of the void. It's a nice enough idea but I think that with how they want to transition back to stories that have a lesser scale, they will try and add a bit more depth to the nature of the void as they've already started doing with Alleria and voidwalker. And they will probably separate a bit more agendas of servant of the void and void lords.

  18. #2718
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The old gods have almost always been this old enemy that incarnated evilish corruption. To the point where in cataclysm the twilight hammer cult is just a group of mad people that lost their mind and wants to see the world end.

    That is in no way relatable, it's ok to have mind controlled groups like such but they have to useful for a greater plan otherwise it's just nonsense. Up until now the purpose was that letting the earth rot would make Aeroth a servant of the void. It's a nice enough idea but I think that with how they want to transition back to stories that have a lesser scale, they will try and add a bit more depth to the nature of the void as they've already started doing with Alleria and voidwalker. And they will probably separate a bit more agendas of servant of the void and void lords.
    The Void as a Cosmic force is neither good nor evil, Alleria and the Void elves use it for good reasons (as you noted). What we see now is that not all Void users are evil. Not all Void users succumb to the fate of the Twilight's Hammer.

    With this being said, the Old Gods were created for the sole purpose of corrupting World Souls. N'Zoth will never help the Light, or any other nonsense like that. Because that is counter-productive to his very existence. N'Zoth is obvious extremely cunning, able to devise intricate networks of plans and schemes; but, in the end, he will follow the directive of the Void Lords. It is the purpose of his existence.

  19. #2719
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    N'Zoth is obvious extremely cunning, able to devise intricate networks of plans and schemes
    Honestly I was buying into how cunning N'zoth is with the emerald nightmare and how he chose Azshara and she tricked us into using the heart of Azeroth into releasing the old God (even if it is more her being cunning than him), all of the 8.3 quests are designed to show how influencial he really is and it works quite well. But he gets deleted so fast and with no respect once he gets out of prison, it really feels like there was no thought put into how he will sustain himself, he just spent millenia thinking of getting out and forgot how brutal it is out of prison.

  20. #2720
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    The old gods have almost always been this old enemy that incarnated evilish corruption. To the point where in cataclysm the twilight hammer cult is just a group of mad people that lost their mind and wants to see the world end.

    That is in no way relatable, it's ok to have mind controlled groups like such but they have to useful for a greater plan otherwise it's just nonsense. Up until now the purpose was that letting the earth rot would make Aeroth a servant of the void. It's a nice enough idea but I think that with how they want to transition back to stories that have a lesser scale, they will try and add a bit more depth to the nature of the void as they've already started doing with Alleria and voidwalker. And they will probably separate a bit more agendas of servant of the void and void lords.
    Not all villains have to be relatable. Its not the end all be all for villains. The Old Gods serve their purpose, they don't need changing for the sake of changing them for "depth" Nor do we always need to have some alternate perspective from the Light and Void(IN this case The void not being outright chaotic evil and the Light not being good).

    I don't relate to the incarnates but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching them cause havoc(Storywise).
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2023-03-20 at 11:39 PM.
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