1. #30021
    I am Murloc! Grazrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    What makes you think he would die?

    I'm grateful for the orc heritage quest (some of the best world building questing in the game imo) because it brought out a lot of fresh or returning orc characters, but I think we'd need more horde development before we start killing more of our leaders and not replacing them with anything meaningful.

    But now that I type that all out, to your point it would fit the mold for how Blizzard handles Horde characters
    Because it would mirror the fate of Varian. And his children are in position to replace him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrh View Post
    Ah yes, inviting Metzen back just in time to kill off his baby. That's some cold shit man.

    (there is no way Thrall is dying with Metzen back in creative)
    I just hate him. He is one of two characters I really do not like at all.

  2. #30022
    The way they are framing Amirdrassil in that interview goes against how they are portraying it in game. Lots of Nelves are saying it will be their home, but the devs see it as a "place to rest" before "something new"?

    Are they talking about how the Dream Zone is a place to rest before the tree is grown? Or in a meta-sense, Amirdrassil well be the temporary Nelf area before a Hyjal revamp?

    Because 8 years(?) and loads of drama to just update Hyjal (something they could've done instantly after BFA) would be insane.
    Last edited by Cheezits; 2023-10-17 at 01:14 PM.

  3. #30023
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    I just hate him. He is one of two characters I really do not like at all.
    He ain't my cup of tea either, but that is no reason to kill him off.

  4. #30024
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    The way they are framing Amirdrassil in that interview goes against how they are portraying it in game. Lots of Nelves are saying it will be their home, but the devs see it as a "place to rest" before "something new"?

    Are they talking about how the Dream Zone is a place to rest before the tree is grown? Or in a meta-sense, Amirdrassil well be the temporary Nelf area before a Hyjal revamp?

    Because 8 years(?) and loads of drama to just update Hyjal (something they could've done instantly after BFA) would be insane.
    Telling you, Avangers style portal entrance.
    Spoiler: 

  5. #30025
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Because it would mirror the fate of Varian. And his children are in position to replace him.

    - - - Updated - - -
    My counter is that Thrall hasn't operated as Varian's political parallel in the Horde since Cataclysm, that he's not even on the Council, and that Vol'jin was deemed the parallel to Varian at the time and that was why he was killed after his hilariously short stint as Warchief.

    But in a more general sense, yes, I can see the broader logic due to the way Varian and Thrall have historically paralleled each other as shorthands for Alliance and Horde representation in older content, books, etc.

    I would hope they kill off another Alliance racial leader to justify it, though, because otherwise we lost Vol'jin for nothing. And the Alliance has no equal to what they did to Sylvanas.

    I just hate him. He is one of two characters I really do not like at all.
    This is a good point and one that the "METZEN IS BACK WOW IS SAVED" crowd seem to oddly be forgetting.

  6. #30026
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    The way they are framing Amirdrassil in that interview goes against how they are portraying it in game. Lots of Nelves are saying it will be their home, but the devs see it as a "place to rest" before "something new"?

    Are they talking about how the Dream Zone is a place to rest before the tree is grown? Or in a meta-sense, Amirdrassil well be the temporary Nelf area before a Hyjal revamp?

    Because 8 years(?) and loads of drama to just update Hyjal would be insane.
    I imagine the writers are once again realizing that their plans are not what the audience had in mind, so they are subtly trying to backtrack to still leave options open.

    8.1 wasnt what Nelves wanted, so we had Tyrande show up in Shadowlands to defeat Sylvanas. Then that was undercut by Sylvanas being redeemed, so they tried to promise Nelves a new home. And once they had it in the Dragon Isles the players once again had to point out why it's seemingly being placed in the Dragon Isles.

    Or maybe it's because they want to make it clear that the tree will not stay in the Emerald Dream. And by extension that the tree with the actual home will be somewhere else. Hard to say when it comes to Blizzard writing Nelves.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  7. #30027
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Hard to say when it comes to Blizzard writing Nelves.
    Hopefully they at least have a clear plan and it's not like Sylvanas where the guy with a boner for her and the guy with a hate boner for her try to outgambit each other.

  8. #30028
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Because it would mirror the fate of Varian. And his children are in position to replace him.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I just hate him. He is one of two characters I really do not like at all.
    You can't kill green jesus, he will be the one leading all orc clans to battle.

  9. #30029
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    And the Dragon Isles were a very small zone with an Old God temple. Plans change and stuff likely gets recycled elsewhere.
    I mean when I first started writing my novel it looked very different as the end product and at this point I can't reuse those ideas for a single because they wouldn't make sense in the form I wanted them to.
    Who is to say ideas for Undermine weren't used up in the Goblin starting storyline or Azshara? or any other goblin owned settlement or district?
    Considering that there simply isn’t a lot of classic lore areas left in WoW, it is doubtful that Blizzard would toss away a potential continent for “reasons”. If they took Dragon Isles from a zone to a continent and turned the Broken Isles into a continent, then Undermine at the very least is going to maintain its vanilla status as a potential continent.

    There’s zero reason not to.

  10. #30030
    I am Murloc! Grazrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magistrate View Post
    My counter is that Thrall hasn't operated as Varian's political parallel in the Horde since Cataclysm, that he's not even on the Council, and that Vol'jin was deemed the parallel to Varian at the time and that was why he was killed after his hilariously short stint as Warchief.

    But in a more general sense, yes, I can see the broader logic due to the way Varian and Thrall have historically paralleled each other as shorthands for Alliance and Horde representation in older content, books, etc.

    I would hope they kill off another Alliance racial leader to justify it, though, because otherwise we lost Vol'jin for nothing. And the Alliance has no equal to what they did to Sylvanas.



    This is a good point and one that the "METZEN IS BACK WOW IS SAVED" crowd seem to oddly be forgetting.
    Metzen gave us TBC. Which had arguably the worst lore since it burned down the whole Illidan gang for no reason. People should not expect too much.

  11. #30031
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    The way they are framing Amirdrassil in that interview goes against how they are portraying it in game. Lots of Nelves are saying it will be their home, but the devs see it as a "place to rest" before "something new"?

    Are they talking about how the Dream Zone is a place to rest before the tree is grown? Or in a meta-sense, Amirdrassil well be the temporary Nelf area before a Hyjal revamp?

    Because 8 years(?) and loads of drama to just update Hyjal (something they could've done instantly after BFA) would be insane.
    I think there are a couple issues here.

    1) All of the out of game and in game text and dialogue before these NPCs has basically said that the tree wouldn't grow to maturity in the dream and that it would need to be transported in some way. This includes all content about it that is currently live.

    2) A couple NPCs seem to be saying they're going to live in the Dream

    3) All previous content about the Dream has always said that it's difficult to get into and it's really only a thing powerful Druids do. Our forrays as players have been likewise quite limited and usually only under extreme circumstances, excepting perhaps the player Druid in the class hall, who is also really powerful by virtue of accomplishment.

    I don't think this is a case of "there's a vast conspiracy by the uwu devs that want to destroy the dream and give nelfs a shitty city." This doesn't make any sense because up until this point the very same story people have been quite clear about number 1, and honestly many of them likely play nelfs and would want a good city. Also, number 2 would be important for the lifetime of the game. Putting a capital in an alternate dimension doesn't make a lot of sense.

    I think this is a case of quest scripters either making some honest mistakes here or different people in a (very very large team of hundreds of employees) not being in sync. I don't think this is emblematic of the vision of the team and see no reason to believe so.

  12. #30032
    Has Ysera been in the PTR at all? Haven't seen anything with her specifically and find it very sus.

    She came back with a brand shiny new model and all she's don't was come back in an epic fashion and handover the reins to her daughter.

    Between that and the blizzcon pet I feel like Ysera is a key part of 11.0 along with elune and eonar.

  13. #30033
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Considering that there simply isn’t a lot of classic lore areas left in WoW, it is doubtful that Blizzard would toss away a potential continent for “reasons”. If they took Dragon Isles from a zone to a continent and turned the Broken Isles into a continent, then Undermine at the very least is going to maintain its vanilla status as a potential continent.

    There’s zero reason not to.
    You have still not fully acknowledged how plans change though. We don't sit here and wait for the inevitable Dragon Isle peninsula north of Straholme, precisely because we have gotten the Dragon Isles in a different form. It's precise shape and iconic landmarks don't matter.

    Undermine definitely exists in lore, but we did by all accounts go there in Cataclysm. We don't have access to it like we probably should, but that doesnt change the fact that the Goblin capital is in the game. It's not really underground, but it's there.
    We could go back to Kezan and have it as a zone, but expecting Undermine like what you describe sounds to me like expecting Ulduar to suddenly become a giant continent solely on the basis that it existed on the old concept art maps.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #30034
    Quote Originally Posted by Merryck View Post
    Indeed Danuser is the poo coloured crayon that was scribbled over your favourite art piece.
    Just...

    I know Danuser isn't peoples favorite, but he's not tole sole writer here.

    While each company handles it differently, from his Title, danuser would have a lot of creative Sway, his primary job is implementing stories into the game world.

    That is to say, he figures out how the in game story is structured and how it can be folded into gameplay.

    Think story allocation, certain presentation, how the game tells the story.

    And he is limited by obvious constraints. Current engine design, patch cadence, etc.

    While I may agree to a certain point that the story has been.... let's go with controversial, the way the story itself has been told and conveyed Is definitely better.

    And if there are some very obvious flaws. I.E. story behind reputation. But no new system is perfect, and they've been iterating on that since before he had the job with the War Campaign.

    Danuser has his own foibles and my perception of him (which very well could be wrong. He could be tonnes of fun and a genuinely nice guy) isn't great due to some of his social media posts, but I do think that a misunderstanding rhat he's the sole arbiter to blame is an odd on.

  15. #30035
    I am Murloc! Grazrug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    Just...

    I know Danuser isn't peoples favorite, but he's not tole sole writer here.

    While each company handles it differently, from his Title, danuser would have a lot of creative Sway, his primary job is implementing stories into the game world.

    That is to say, he figures out how the in game story is structured and how it can be folded into gameplay.

    Think story allocation, certain presentation, how the game tells the story.

    And he is limited by obvious constraints. Current engine design, patch cadence, etc.

    While I may agree to a certain point that the story has been.... let's go with controversial, the way the story itself has been told and conveyed Is definitely better.

    And if there are some very obvious flaws. I.E. story behind reputation. But no new system is perfect, and they've been iterating on that since before he had the job with the War Campaign.

    Danuser has his own foibles and my perception of him (which very well could be wrong. He could be tonnes of fun and a genuinely nice guy) isn't great due to some of his social media posts, but I do think that a misunderstanding rhat he's the sole arbiter to blame is an odd on.
    Danuser isn't really that bad. Boring but not bad. As someone reading warhammer novels I know what I mean.

  16. #30036
    Mechagnome Draedarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrrh View Post
    Ah yes, inviting Metzen back just in time to kill off his baby. That's some cold shit man.

    (there is no way Thrall is dying with Metzen back in creative)
    That's why i don't think they'll do anything with Green Jesus, only thing is that if Metzen wants him to go, to evolve the story of his sons and Aggra

  17. #30037
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    Metzen gave us TBC. Which had arguably the worst lore since it burned down the whole Illidan gang for no reason. People should not expect too much.
    I've been talking with guildies a lot on this point and the consensus seems to be Metzen isn't inherently a good story writer but he is a good world builder and knows the aesthetic that makes players feel like they are playing Warcraft and not something else. Because of this, him being back could really help.

    My opinion is that TBC (in agreement with you) was not good storytelling, and he was also involved in the lore that became Shadowlands, and he was also principally involved in WOD. I'd argue WOD had very strong launch content (when it started to work # week after launch). He was heavily involved with everything else and Legion was a resounding win, Pandaria moreso in the long-term perception became a win.

    I'm not expecting him to write the narrative and I think he's probably learned a lot from the misses. I think if he can guide the franchise to an overall aesthetic we recognize, that a strong and coherent story narrative can emerge which would very much be a win.

  18. #30038
    I don't think my hopes for future expansion are disproportionate and yet I'm still worried ^^'
    - guild system and in game calendar overhaul (probably won't happen)
    - new type of evergreen activity outdoor (good chances they attempt something)
    - environments and bestiary that are imaginative and full of marvel (would make sense they try harder than this expansion)

    I don't care what they announce for raids and dungeons because it will probably be same as usual.

  19. #30039
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You have still not fully acknowledged how plans change though. We don't sit here and wait for the inevitable Dragon Isle peninsula north of Straholme, precisely because we have gotten the Dragon Isles in a different form. It's precise shape and iconic landmarks don't matter.

    Undermine definitely exists in lore, but we did by all accounts go there in Cataclysm. We don't have access to it like we probably should, but that doesnt change the fact that the Goblin capital is in the game. It's not really underground, but it's there.
    We could go back to Kezan and have it as a zone, but expecting Undermine like what you describe sounds to me like expecting Ulduar to suddenly become a giant continent solely on the basis that it existed on the old concept art maps.
    Well that's a bad comparison. The difference is that Dragon Isles was only a cut vanilla zone up until it was mentioned by Wrathion in BFA. Undermine was a planned continent in vanilla, cut from vanilla, mentioned repeatedly throughout WoW lore, and after Cataclysm was mentioned as a future destination for players by the creative director of Blizzard at the time. Again, you have one of the last major classic lore areas of Warcraft that hasn't been utilized or even seen yet. Why would you not use it? And yeah, the lore makes it clear that Kezan and Undermine are two different places, so going to Kezan is not going to Undermine.

    Also the concept of Ulduar got divided into multiple titan facilities throughout Azeroth, and we got a facility called Ulduar in Northrend, so again, bad comparison.

  20. #30040
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferlion View Post
    -snip-
    Strongly agree with everything you said here.

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