1. #3681
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

    Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

    Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.
    Well, he attacked because he wanted strong champions for his army and he thought 'till the last that he just played with us. But I think this isn't the place to discuss "what if's", a new build is out since days and I see it barely discussed here, sadly.

  2. #3682
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

    Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

    Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.
    It's not a bad argument. And from my perspective, reasons that could have stretched the expansions further, long before we went traipsing through other planets.

  3. #3683
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Shitty writing...please. Sargeras kills planets all by himself and you'd want to believe that you could fight him?
    This is why I despise certain expansions.
    What's the issue?
    When he raises his fist to smash Azeroth to bits, we just raise our pinkie and hold him at bay.
    Just like Goku or something, because wow is clearly an anime according to some people here. /s


    Formerly known as Arafal

  4. #3684
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    No it wouldn't - leave Sylvanas alone!
    Villains are also charismatic, Arthas is literally the most iconic/loved character in the whole franchise despite being a bad guy who's dead for nearly 15 years!

    Meanwhile, we have Sylvanas, neither villain nor a hero, completely ruined by countless back-and-forths that made little to no sense at all, managing to aggregate a large portion of the player base to hate her character as a whole regardless of the role/path she may take in the future.

    I would say that killing her could've redeemed more than keeping her alive, LMAO.

  5. #3685
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    What's the issue?
    When he raises his fist to smash Azeroth to bits, we just raise our pinkie and hold him at bay.
    Just like Goku or something, because wow is clearly an anime according to some people here. /s
    Most anime fans I know consider the power creep of the DBZ universe one of its weakest points.

  6. #3686
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I don't buy it, because Azzinoth isn't connected with Gul'dan, the quote states he's Gul'dan's master. Also, Gul'dan says this before the encounter begins:
    Yeah, originally Gul'dans plan was to put Sargeras into Illidans body, I agree.

    But we interrupt him in the middle of the process. It wouldn't really make much sense for it to be Sargeras considering.... that would mean he succeeded?


    During the intermission into the Mythic Phase, Khadgar says

    Archmage Khadgar yells: Time to return the demon hunter's soul to his body... and deny the Legion's master a host!
    i.e. Illidans soul isn't in his body yet, but neither is Sargeras.

    So Azzinoth sees his opportunity and takes over.

    The Demon Within yells: He will... yet claim... this titan...
    That's the death quote for the Demon Within, which, once again doesn't make any sense if it's not Azzinoth. Also, y'know, Azzinoth is literally the Demon Within Illidan.

  7. #3687
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    That's the death quote for the Demon Within, which, once again doesn't make any sense if it's not Azzinoth. Also, y'know, Azzinoth is literally the Demon Within Illidan.
    Do we know that? We know he defeated it and grabbed his glaives but did eat his heart and consume his blood? I think that fight only ever shows up in HS. Always thought Illidan became a DH not through the usual process (which he likely pioneered) but rather when he received Sargeras' gift directly. I mean he clearly has mastered the powers of Azzinoth since he uses skills named after him in both fights but that could be a function of his warglaives that he eventually learned to use by himself.

  8. #3688
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Do we know that? We know he defeated it and grabbed his glaives but did eat his heart and consume his blood? I think that fight only ever shows up in HS. Always thought Illidan became a DH not through the usual process (which he likely pioneered) but rather when he received Sargeras' gift directly. I mean he clearly has mastered the powers of Azzinoth since he uses skills named after him in both fights but that could be a function of his warglaives that he eventually learned to use by himself.
    Hm, that is a good point.

    Still, the Demon Within does spawn "Soul Fragments of Azzinoth", and canonically, Illidan does not have the Warglaives at that point anymore, so there is something.

  9. #3689
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Hm, that is a good point.

    Still, the Demon Within does spawn "Soul Fragments of Azzinoth", and canonically, Illidan does not have the Warglaives at that point anymore, so there is something.
    Not saying it's not possible. But Illidan learning to use a power inherent to the Warglaives is not different to my Paladin learning to use Wake of Ashes after wielding the Ashbringer.

  10. #3690
    Are people here really comparing WoW to an Anime? Now I've seen it all from this place, hilarious.

    WoW was never meant to be like Anime, there's a reason why the DBZ-style deaths of Deathwing and N'Zoth are pretty much universally made fun of or even hated by the community.

    Besides, there's only so many raid encounters that you can resolve with a big Kamehameha before it starts to become repetitive, and both Deathwing and N'Zoth were already destroyed by a Kamehameha (the irony, like master like minion).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    In a universe where I was making Warcraft, we'd have had the Cataclysm before Wrath. Why would Arthas strike the factions when they are at a strong point? At the end of TBC the factions just have limited skirmishes, their leadership has solidified with Varian returning, they have increased in power with the Draenei and Blood Elves joining, they have pacified most local threats that could keep them occupied.

    Meanwhile attacking right after Cata, the factions are a mess because of the Shattering and a global faction war, the Aspects have lost their power which means a major protector of Azeroth that could have fucked Arthas up if he stepped out of Icecrown is now weak.

    Blizzard was just trying to burn through the cast of WC3 to keep the WoW machine going.
    No, Cataclysm after Wrath makes sense.

    The true mastermind of Cataclysm was the Old God N'Zoth, who infused Deathwing with power and commanded him to rampage across the planet. N'Zoth chose this specific time-frame because the armies of Azeroth were exhausted after the war with the Lich King. The war in TBC was not as exhausting as the war in Wrath and thus N'Zoth would not attack after TBC.

    Furthermore, N'Zoth sensed the fall of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, and knew that he had to act quickly as he was running short on time. N'Zoth was concerned and that's why he began the Cataclysm. He would not be so concerned if Yogg-Saron hadn't fallen yet.

    Years ago, Blizzard also toyed with the idea that the Cataclysm could have partially been caused by Yogg-Saron's defeat (since we all know that defeating the Old Gods can have destabilizing effects for the planet).

  11. #3691
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Are people here really comparing WoW to an Anime? Now I've seen it all from this place, hilarious.

    WoW was never meant to be like Anime, there's a reason why the DBZ-style deaths of Deathwing and N'Zoth are pretty much universally made fun of or even hated by the community.

    Besides, there's only so many raid encounters that you can resolve with a big Kamehameha before it starts to become repetitive, and both Deathwing and N'Zoth were already destroyed by a Kamehameha (the irony, like master like minion).

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, Cataclysm after Wrath makes sense.

    The true mastermind of Cataclysm was the Old God N'Zoth, who infused Deathwing with power and commanded him to rampage across the planet. N'Zoth chose this specific time-frame because the armies of Azeroth were exhausted after the war with the Lich King. The war in TBC was not as exhausting as the war in Wrath and thus N'Zoth would not attack after TBC.

    Furthermore, N'Zoth sensed the fall of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron, and knew that he had to act quickly as he was running short on time. N'Zoth was concerned and that's why he began the Cataclysm. He would not be so concerned if Yogg-Saron hadn't fallen yet.

    Years ago, Blizzard also toyed with the idea that the Cataclysm could have partially been caused by Yogg-Saron's defeat (since we all know that defeating the Old Gods can have destabilizing effects for the planet).
    Honestly almost any given expansion makes sense being placed after a different expansion.
    SL could have come after Legion on the basis of all the dead people. BfA could have come after MoP on the basis of escalation after SoO.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  12. #3692
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    These quotes are a giveaway though:

    "You topple a pawn and presume to challenge its master? Such arrogance!"
    "Behold the shadow of what is to come, the endless darkness that shall consume your world."
    Gul'dan never worked under Illidan's command in any timeline, nor Illidan ever planed to destroy Azeroth, especially after what we learned about him in Legion.
    I always understood that line of dialogue as a similar of "you are not prepared"

  13. #3693
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Honestly almost any given expansion makes sense being placed after a different expansion.
    SL could have come after Legion on the basis of all the dead people. BfA could have come after MoP on the basis of escalation after SoO.
    Not for Cataclysm.

    For instance, TBC and WotLK could be placed anywhere. TBC was kickstarted by the Legion reopening the Dark Portal, that can happen at any moment. WotLK was kickstarted by the Lich King waking up from his slumber, that can happen at any moment.

    Cataclysm needed to happen after WotLK. When the Old God N'Zoth sensed the fall of Yogg-Saron, he realized that he was the last of his kind left active, and so he began preparations for the Hour of Twilight -- leading to the return of Deathwing and the Cataclysm. This needs to happen after WotLK, as that's when Yogg-Saron is confronted and defeated.

    The Chronicles go more in-depth into this. It is explicitly stated (I quote) "The Old God was certain that the champions of Azeroth would eventually seek it out and try to overwhelm it as they had done to C'Thun and Yogg-Saron"

    So the Cataclysm must happen after Yogg-Saron's death, because that serves as a "wake up call" for N'Zoth. He is the last remaining Old God left active and he must start acting against the world (before Cataclysm, N'Zoth was largely passive).

    Another reason why N'Zoth launched the Cataclysm after WoTLK was the death of Malygos during WotLK, which left the Blue Dragonflight leaderless and unstable, and N'Zoth's minion Deathwing conspired with Arygos to take over the dragonflight.

    So, as you can see, WotLK-Cataclysm was a necessary order of events. As is Cataclysm-MoP, because what caused the mists to dissipate was the Great Cataclysm.

    Legion-BfA is another necessary order of events, because the catalyst for the Fourth War is the eruption of Azerite everywhere, and this only happens after Sargeras stabs the planet; which also gives N'Zoth the resource he needs to break free (the Heart of Azeroth).
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-04-07 at 11:19 AM.

  14. #3694
    So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  15. #3695
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?
    I honestly don't like the idea because it would mean to make them less powerful than Neltharion designed them to be

  16. #3696
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I honestly don't like the idea because it would mean to make them less powerful than Neltharion designed them to be
    Why though? Evokers would still be the best class likewise, you would just be able to have the Dracthyr do different stuff.
    A Dracthyr only using Evoker abilities is kinda boring anyways. You should be able to play as a warrior dragon, or a Death Knight dragon.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #3697
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    So how long do people reckon we will have to wait before we get more class options for Dracthyr?
    I can see some classes being added to them in 10.2, at the earliest.

    Other than that, not before 11.0 or beyond.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  18. #3698
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    I can see some classes being added to them in 10.2, at the earliest.

    Other than that, not before 11.0 or beyond.
    I was assuming they would be added in the Forbidden Reach patch. It being added in 10.0.7 kinda threw a wrench into those plans.

    I just really want to change my DK to a Dracthyr. I suppose it might be a long shot given DK might be a difficult fit for Dracthyr given they were not there for neither the first or second mass ressurection by the Lich King.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #3699
    I would rather see some dragon eye etc customization for other existing races and also ability to turn into a dragon mount, something akin to night warrior eyes from bfa.

  20. #3700
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Why though? Evokers would still be the best class likewise, you would just be able to have the Dracthyr do different stuff.
    A Dracthyr only using Evoker abilities is kinda boring anyways. You should be able to play as a warrior dragon, or a Death Knight dragon.
    This is always a tricky topic. If this was a pen and paper RPG, I’d be all for dropping class restrictions entirely.

    A Dracthyr Death Knight, Orc Paladin, or Tauren Warlock, to name a few examples, are all interesting concepts. However, they are interesting because they directly contradict the established cultural norm. Which is fine, if they’re an outlier. Which is acceptable with tabletop, since you control the integrity of the setting yourself.

    In the MMO space, you lose that control. If you give Tauren the Warlock class, that class implicitly becomes a part of its cultural identity, as it did for Orcs. The class selection available at release said something about them, as a culture. It strongly defined who they were by defining who they were not. It told you something about the race that they couldn’t be Warlocks. Or Rogue. Or Mages. Or whatever else. That identity is chipped away at with every additional class offered. Which some people might be fine with, depending on their valuation of the setting.

    The same would be true of Dracthyr. It says something about both the race and Evoker that they actively use their draconic biology and talents in combat. That implication of draconic primacy and superiority - the implication upon which their entire existence hinges - is lost the second you have them eschewing their wings and breath and draconic abilities for a sword and board. Or “lower” forms of spellcasting.

    Is expanding that race/class selection worth that price? Perhaps. Your mileage may vary. Personally, though? I’d rather maintain cultural identity.

    I thought that Allied Races were a great way to have our cake and eat it, too. Orc Priests. Troll Paladins. Human Shamans. All without compromising the cultural identity of the “core” races. In the case of Dracthyr, I think adding playable Drakonid is the answer.
    Last edited by draugril; 2023-04-07 at 04:08 PM.

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