1. #3981
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    How many other features has that game/expansion, though? Honest question, but I can guess the answer.
    Every year you get one zone that is as large as the largest WoW zones and a somewhat smaller zone with MUCH more questing than WoW has; about 8 scenario-like areas called delves, 2 public dungeons (think an easy dungeon anyone can enter), 4 dungeons with multiple difficulties with the Veteran Hard Mode versions being as difficult as M25+, a Trial (raid) though those tend to be smaller (but their hardest mode is as hard as mythic raid bosses), a massive number of new set items and crafted items plus several mythic items (legendaries you can craft by finding multiple clues across the world, you can only wear one and many completely change how you play). Every annual chapter has some signature feature as well be it a new class (all of which can play all roles), a new profession or a new gameplay mode. Within a year you will get about 6 new houses as well? I might be counting low.

    I'd say it provides a bit less content than WoW; the raids are fairly small, the dungeons are usually more impactful than the WoW ones, there is less outdoor area but it has much more outdoor content and most importantly EVERYTHING is evergreen; there is value doing them years later.

    Oh and the game has constant events that are very rewarding to do.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-13 at 05:40 AM.

  2. #3982
    My understanding is that the community is quite pissed at eso devs for lack of reworks and investment on the classes, the quality of the servers and the graphic and engine updates that are slow and limiting the game because they want old consoles to still manage to run the game as well as the newest machines. When they've added the new ingame card game that confused a lot of players to what they can expect of the dev.

    I'm a firm believer that housing can be made into wow but it has to be miles ahead of what the competition offers in terms of immersion. No instanced housing, have your place visible by anyone. Not just a place to isolate yourself, but one that gives you something of value. In that sense I think that movable guild housing is what they should go towards. Have aircrafts, boats and submarines usable as guild housing. Big enough for everyone in the guild to be able to customize a bit the place and interact with it.

    I don't care about female ogres like I don't care about female gnolls

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I'd say it provides a bit less content than WoW; the raids are fairly small, the dungeons are usually more impactful than the WoW ones, there is less outdoor area but it has much more outdoor content and most importantly EVERYTHING is evergreen; there is value doing them years later.
    That is super interesting to me, what makes it evergreen? What kind of value: gear, exp?

  3. #3983
    So currently 10.1 gameplay looks like
    Easier m+ because of fewer affixes and larger key level gaps between them
    The infusion rewards easier to obtain because of world content and easier m+ barring last minute reward tuning
    Enchanting making money finally
    The gear upgrade system replacing Valor
    Recipe drops from raid for more fun pieces of gear

    I'm not seeing anything bad right now

  4. #3984
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    That is super interesting to me, what makes it evergreen? What kind of value: gear, exp?
    The game has minimal gear progression. You can get golden gear just by working on your crafting (but that takes a fair amount of time). There is better gear; raid sets completed in Veteran are always stronger than other set items, weapons from the solo or small group challenge modes (and the solo challenge modes are harder Mage Tower-level difficult) and mask/shoulder sets from Veteran dungeons are all significantly better. However the game doesn't constantly try to one up its own gear; many builds still use Cloudrest raid sets and Cloudrest was released with Summerset four Chapters ago. I still use the Zaan Monster Mask
    Beyond that once you collect a set item for a specific slot and armor type you collect that item and you can recraft it later on with currency earned doing any number of activities.
    The main reason people do content is for the cosmetics and to keep grinding exp for Paragon levels (they go up to 3600 but power gains are minimal past 1200, you are just getting more versatility). The amount of transmogs, furnishings and dye unlocks in the game is absolutely insane. So unless you play like its your job you will never just naturally get them all over the time the patch is current. You always have a reason to go back to older content and there is a constant rotation of events that doubles the rewards on specific past zones which guides the population into specific zones instead of all over the world.

    Oh and ALL GEAR IS ACCOUNT WIDE. You can hop on an alt and just send him the best gear the moment they are max level.

    And that doesn't even count how much more complex PvP is than WoW's.

    The main issue the game has is that the skill cap is insane and playing at the highest level is at least to me deeply unsatisfying with insane APM and extremely precise rotations that threaten carpal tunnel syndrome. And it is all based on animation cancelling behaviour that was by the devs admission a bug.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-13 at 07:31 AM.

  5. #3985
    should add that there's no centralized auction house, your guild rents one of the fixed traders in one of the many locations of the entire game. yes, that's a bit inconvenient, but travel is instantaneous and i personally like returning to old beloved locations, even if for a couple minutes. as if there was an AH spot with unique items in, say, Astranaar.
    the entire Tamriel scales, you can do it in any order you want to, or even skip parts you don't like entirely.

  6. #3986
    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    should add that there's no centralized auction house, your guild rents one of the fixed traders in one of the many locations of the entire game. yes, that's a bit inconvenient, but travel is instantaneous and i personally like returning to old beloved locations, even if for a couple minutes. as if there was an AH spot with unique items in, say, Astranaar.
    the entire Tamriel scales, you can do it in any order you want to, or even skip parts you don't like entirely.
    It really is a very different game to Warcraft, it is much more focused on story and questing. Problem is that its engine is trash.

    But yeah if ESO could do housing this well, WoW could absolutely copy that system and elevate it. And make crazy money out of it. The ESO whales dump serious cash into housing. WoW Housing would make tokens sell like hot cakes and create a massive furnishing market with people grinding rare recipes and mats all over the world. Forget raiding, learn to make canopy beds!

  7. #3987
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The game has minimal gear progression. You can get golden gear just by working on your crafting (but that takes a fair amount of time). There is better gear; raid sets completed in Veteran are always stronger than other set items, weapons from the solo or small group challenge modes (and the solo challenge modes are harder Mage Tower-level difficult) and mask/shoulder sets from Veteran dungeons are all significantly better. However the game doesn't constantly try to one up its own gear; many builds still use Cloudrest raid sets and Cloudrest was released with Summerset four Chapters ago. I still use the Zaan Monster Mask
    Beyond that once you collect a set item for a specific slot and armor type you collect that item and you can recraft it later on with currency earned doing any number of activities.
    The main reason people do content is for the cosmetics and to keep grinding exp for Paragon levels (they go up to 3600 but power gains are minimal past 1200, you are just getting more versatility). The amount of transmogs, furnishings and dye unlocks in the game is absolutely insane. So unless you play like its your job you will never just naturally get them all over the time the patch is current. You always have a reason to go back to older content and there is a constant rotation of events that doubles the rewards on specific past zones which guides the population into specific zones instead of all over the world.

    Oh and ALL GEAR IS ACCOUNT WIDE. You can hop on an alt and just send him the best gear the moment they are max level.

    And that doesn't even count how much more complex PvP is than WoW's.

    The main issue the game has is that the skill cap is insane and playing at the highest level is at least to me deeply unsatisfying with insane APM and extremely precise rotations that threaten carpal tunnel syndrome. And it is all based on animation cancelling behaviour that was by the devs admission a bug.
    thank you for all the details you've provided. It was a really interesting read.

    I would like wow to be more focused around cosmetic acquisition rather than power gain. But in wow the raid progress experience is heavily balanced around this power gain. How is it handled in eso? Do they need to regularly nerf the bosses or provide increasing buffs to the party like it was done in wow in its first expansions?

  8. #3988
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    thank you for all the details you've provided. It was a really interesting read.

    I would like wow to be more focused around cosmetic acquisition rather than power gain. But in wow the raid progress experience is heavily balanced around this power gain. How is it handled in eso? Do they need to regularly nerf the bosses or provide increasing buffs to the party like it was done in wow in its first expansions?
    Trials have normal mode, veteran mode and veteran Hard Mode. Veteran Hard Mode is fairly hard. Plus ESO has what we call Trifecta achievements; finish the raid with NO deaths in a short time while on Veteran Hard Mode. The biggest achievement each chapter is to complete that and it can take a fair while; on console with no addon support some Trifecta achievements were not even completed before the next patch. Plus the game also has leaderboards for pretty much everything.
    They don't really have to regularly nerf bosses for that reason. They do have to nerf bosses because they constantly fuck around with the combat system which can mean everyone suddenly does much less damage and some damage checks are just not possible but that's because the combat system in ESO just does not work properly.
    I think the main difference is that ESO encounters, both in dungeons and in trials, are less complex than WoW Mythic encounters however optimal gameplay for an ESO build is often FAR harder than it is for a WoW spec. So progression is about learning the encounter to such a level that you can do mechanics and still execute your rotations flawlessly. That takes more time than figuring out complex mechanics does plus ESO does not have nearly the same depth of addon support that WoW has.

    Honestly most people I know do NOT play the game for power acquisition. And while the cosmetics and mounts from raids are great, most of the best mounts come from just doing all the events during the year and furnishing can come from anything. The game is relentless about getting you to log in every single day and has tons of FOMO built in. Most people just want to see the story, level their companions, do their dailies and find a new rug for their house.

    --------------------

    I do not think WoW could change to that extent. And I don't see why it would. I would love for WoW to have separate item progression track with Dungeons, Raid and PvP all having full access to the highest ilvl and overworld to be able to SLOWLY progress to full heroic ilvl but with each progression track being designed to offer the best gear for the content you use it in. I would consider that far more effective than trying to remove Mythic ilvl items or turn Mythic raiding into cosmetics only as so many people suggest. You can absolutely get a challenge out of WoW's group content and you can also play raids and dungeons socially. PuGing is a different beast but PuGing is a choice.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-13 at 10:11 AM.

  9. #3989
    Elemental Lord
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    Imo to improve gearing game needs to give clear reason for gearing. Mage Tower, but Legion version would be perfect - so no scalling + very unique cosmetic that goes away after expac + different reward for each spec. It encourages you to get best items you can (so challenge is easier) but doesn't force you to clear highest difficulty of group content.

    What you say about ESO progression sounds really horrible. Imagine your items staying BiS after expac is done and only progression is farming 1234 level of Artifact Power.

  10. #3990
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Imo to improve gearing game needs to give clear reason for gearing. Mage Tower, but Legion version would be perfect - so no scalling + very unique cosmetic that goes away after expac + different reward for each spec. It encourages you to get best items you can (so challenge is easier) but doesn't force you to clear highest difficulty of group content.

    What you say about ESO progression sounds really horrible. Imagine your items staying BiS after expac is done and only progression is farming 1234 level of Artifact Power.
    People play because they enjoy the gameplay and because they want their guild to rank on the leaderboards? The hardcore crowd is not grinding paragon, they already have it maxed out since forever (and it is account wide).

    But really the playerbase as I said is not progression focused. I think the majority of people who play WoW regularly play it for gear progression. That is not true for all MMOs. Heck it's not true even for many of the people who buy the WoW expansions; they show up for the first few months, enjoy the new zones, try the instanced content and then leave. THose people don't care about collections or gear progression, they just want the big lump of non-repetitive playtime that is available when an expansion releases. WoW cannot keep those people because they expect a lot of content and don't want to be playing the same thing for months; it is not cost effective for ATVI to design for that demo.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-13 at 10:58 AM.

  11. #3991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    People play because they enjoy the gameplay and because they want their guild to rank on the leaderboards? The hardcore crowd is not grinding paragon, they already have it maxed out since forever (and it is account wide).

    But really the playerbase as I said is not progression focused. I think the majority of people who play WoW regularly play it for gear progression.
    I'm not saying it's bad game, I'm saying progression sounds horrible. I'm not progression driven myself.

  12. #3992
    My preference has always be about story and lore-driven play.

    I'd like to add one's own toon to a sense of lore progression. But that metric doesn't currently exist in the game.

  13. #3993
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I'm not saying it's bad game, I'm saying progression sounds horrible. I'm not progression driven myself.
    Oh it is bad. The real progression of the game is linked to grinding different skills to max which can be less than fun (I don't know if you played other Elder Scrolls games but everything has to be leveled up individually) and most importantly leveling crafting which is a two tier process (both skill leveling and learning traits) which pretty much requires some spreadsheets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    My preference has always be about story and lore-driven play.

    I'd like to add one's own toon to a sense of lore progression. But that metric doesn't currently exist in the game.
    I think implementing a Journal in WoW would be a relative easy win. And it might get a lot of people interested in the lore who would otherwise never open WoWpedia and definitely not likely to buy the novels. Plus there is a very naturally way to implement it, through archeology (though change its name to something else because it clearly doesn't just have to do with antiquities).

  14. #3994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    My preference has always be about story and lore-driven play.

    I'd like to add one's own toon to a sense of lore progression. But that metric doesn't currently exist in the game.
    And when it existed? WoW (and Blizzard games in general) were always great world/gameplay and weak story with some epic moments in cinematics from time to time.

  15. #3995
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think implementing a Journal in WoW would be a relative easy win. And it might get a lot of people interested in the lore who would otherwise never open WoWpedia and definitely not likely to buy the novels. Plus there is a very naturally way to implement it, through archeology (though change its name to something else because it clearly doesn't just have to do with antiquities).
    That's a damn good idea that I don't recall anyone ever bringing up. I'd personalize it a bit, but...yeah...
    *copies Nymrohd's post*

    Always give credit to where and who it's due.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    And when it existed? .
    Not saying it ever did.
    However, maybe it someday will...

  16. #3996
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That's a damn good idea that I don't recall anyone ever bringing up. I'd personalize it a bit, but...yeah...
    *copies Nymrohd's post*

    Always give credit to where and who it's due.

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    Not saying it ever did.
    However, maybe it someday will...
    You could have things like a bestiary which expands by killing dungeon and raid bosses of that type. Have pages on different cultures were you unlock entries by completing questlines. Things like that.

  17. #3997
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    I would love for WoW to reinvent itself, to stop focusing on the player base minority. I would like more activities, more choices to approach the game. I've been playing this game for a decade, and I've never raided because I'm not interested in farming the best temporary equipment in the patch. Yet I hang around on it, do alts, expand my collection with item mounts/appearances, follow the story. I really hope that 11.0 will have persistent new features.

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    I love the idea!
    careful what you wish for, that's how we ended up with island expeditions, warfronts and torghast. I'm glad they're not investing more in overworld activities instead of new gameplay scenari

  18. #3998
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    careful what you wish for, that's how we ended up with island expeditions, warfronts
    I absolutely loved those, I wish we had many more.
    Battle for Azeroth
    Best focking Axpansion!

  19. #3999
    I would like if they explored why Void is so obsessed with "flesh", like the Old Gods. Is it a result of Void potential mixed with Zereth robots, creating an infinite amount of "anti-machines", or what? where did the flesh monsters start?

  20. #4000
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    I would love for WoW to reinvent itself, to stop focusing on the player base minority. I would like more activities, more choices to approach the game.
    Well, I'm all about rewriting the lore for 2.0. Faction leadership, widening the scope of the earlier class structure, and racial abilities are typically what I'm looking at when I'm not looking at the overall storyline as well as stories involved in-zone. But there'd be an emphasis on personal progression of your toon.

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