1. #4001
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    I talked about persistent content. Your examples are quite the opposite.
    And yet they fit the description in the message I quoted.

  2. #4002
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I would like if they explored why Void is so obsessed with "flesh", like the Old Gods. Is it a result of Void potential mixed with Zereth robots, creating an infinite amount of "anti-machines", or what? where did the flesh monsters start?
    That's really more of an Old God thing specificially than Void in general.

  3. #4003
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    And yet they fit the description in the message I quoted.
    Which is instanced related stuff and not in the open world. Thats a important distinction
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  4. #4004
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's really more of an Old God thing specificially than Void in general.
    But they are created by the Void Lords and are their lieutenants more than any other creature or entity in the game (even the Naaru, Dark Naaru don't seem to be very sentient or organized). So there is definitely a Void/Flesh connection.

    Interestingly the flipside is Order Robots moreso than anything with the Light.

  5. #4005
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But they are created by the Void Lords and are their lieutenants more than any other creature or entity in the game (even the Naaru, Dark Naaru don't seem to be very sentient or organized). So there is definitely a Void/Flesh connection.
    Interestingly the flipside is Order Robots moreso than anything with the Light.
    Imo, you're missing the 3rd party...energy.
    Mystical, magical, mechanistic...doesn't matter. It's all One.

  6. #4006
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    But they are created by the Void Lords and are their lieutenants more than any other creature or entity in the game (even the Naaru, Dark Naaru don't seem to be very sentient or organized). So there is definitely a Void/Flesh connection.

    Interestingly the flipside is Order Robots moreso than anything with the Light.
    Lieutenants? I think you're giving them to much credit. They're basically thrown out more or less at random with only basic instructions to go corrupt some World Soul after killing all their competitors that happened to land on the same planet, then die as the Void Lords take over. I doubt the Void Lords seem them as much more than tools.

  7. #4007
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I would like if they explored why Void is so obsessed with "flesh", like the Old Gods. Is it a result of Void potential mixed with Zereth robots, creating an infinite amount of "anti-machines", or what? where did the flesh monsters start?
    Probably because the Void is a force for potential and change alongside Life and Fel, and Flesh is a manifestation of that.

    Flesh grows, it changes, it's malleable and susceptible to corruption.
    It makes sense that the Force that's all about potential and possibility would manifest as that.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  8. #4008
    I think I'd wonder more why transmogrification, that is, "the act or process of changing or being changed completely" or if you prefer the word "transmutation" neither doesn't seem to exist.

    ...puny would-be gods

  9. #4009
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    careful what you wish for, that's how we ended up with island expeditions, warfronts and torghast. I'm glad they're not investing more in overworld activities instead of new gameplay scenari
    I think Island Expeditions, Warfronts and Torghast all had amazing potential though. I would have loved for them to iterate on those. Imagine the Torghast gameplay (temporary power gains, decently challenging content at the upper levels, solo to small group play) combined with the Island Expeditions content (great variety in environments, mobs and random events paired with an equal variety of cosmetic rewards). As for Warfronts, I liked Arathi Warfront and I think it could definitely have been tuned to be very challenging group content if they made the effort plus the rewards were very worthwhile (amazing transmog sets); they just did not iterate on it enough.

  10. #4010
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Island Expeditions, Warfronts and Torghast all had amazing potential though. I would have loved for them to iterate on those. Imagine the Torghast gameplay (temporary power gains, decently challenging content at the upper levels, solo to small group play) combined with the Island Expeditions content (great variety in environments, mobs and random events paired with an equal variety of cosmetic rewards). As for Warfronts, I liked Arathi Warfront and I think it could definitely have been tuned to be very challenging group content if they made the effort plus the rewards were very worthwhile (amazing transmog sets); they just did not iterate on it enough.
    Blizz is at its best when they throw shit at the wall and see what works
    The downfall of those systems weren't the systems themselves but the extra stuff
    Islands were fun but the fact 90% of AP gain was moved there wasn't
    Warfronts were great but the timegates and lack of actual difficulty killed those
    Torghast in alpha was amazing and the extra stuff added throughout the expansion made it better but the requirements for legendaries and unlocking layers and getting rid of the unlimited runs are the problem

  11. #4011
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Which is instanced related stuff and not in the open world. Thats a important distinction
    I just read again what I wrote and apparently I added an extra negation that wasn't supposed to be there T.T
    What I wanted to say is that : I'm glad they're investing more in overworld activities instead of new gameplay scenari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think Island Expeditions, Warfronts and Torghast all had amazing potential though. I would have loved for them to iterate on those. Imagine the Torghast gameplay (temporary power gains, decently challenging content at the upper levels, solo to small group play) combined with the Island Expeditions content (great variety in environments, mobs and random events paired with an equal variety of cosmetic rewards). As for Warfronts, I liked Arathi Warfront and I think it could definitely have been tuned to be very challenging group content if they made the effort plus the rewards were very worthwhile (amazing transmog sets); they just did not iterate on it enough.
    Warfronts could have been something interesting, but in the end it's its own kind if game. What I mean by that is that its whole gameplay revolves around mechanics that are unique ti the scenario and required a lot of development and balancing to make it a worthwhile experience.

    Island expeditions were sweet little pieces of content that worked quite well but the whole concept got skewed the moment it became a race against time.

    Torghast has no interesting value in my eyes, it is a race that takes the same amount of time as a mm+, it is incredibly imbalanced (I remember restoshams breaking the whole thing so fast). Maybe it has to do with the rythm there, but I was bored most of the times I spent there and it didn't feel rewarding.

    I feel like island expedition should make a comeback but it would be really interesting if it was directly in the overworld

  12. #4012
    I'll preface by saying I didn't play the Heroic variants, but I thought Warfronts were one of the absolute biggest misses they've had in a long time. Basically unloseable 20 minute games that play out the same every single time with no meaningful variation where the majority of gameplay is collecting resources in a small area to get to the next stage. Darkshore inexplicably doubled down on the tedium, with a lengthier prelude to the actual warfront and drastically reducing the amount of stone you could collect, making a solid chunk of the experience just sitting and waiting for more ore or mobs at the mine to spawn so you could eventually get to glaive throwers. There is no fun factor to them at all beyond the novelty of your first time experiencing it. I've heard the Heroic versions made them a more demanding challenge, but it's clear it was a too little too late situation, and I can't imagine wanting to spend even more time in the Darkshore warfront.

    I do think the AI system they developed in BfA has some real potential beyond just a PvP brawl and is worth playing around with more. I think it may better fit some sort of solo content where they can fine tune the particulars more and make the AI stand out more compared to island expeditions or Comp Stomp where you're just nuking everything without much of a second thought.

  13. #4013
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I just read again what I wrote and apparently I added an extra negation that wasn't supposed to be there T.T
    What I wanted to say is that : I'm glad they're investing more in overworld activities instead of new gameplay scenari

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    Warfronts could have been something interesting, but in the end it's its own kind if game. What I mean by that is that its whole gameplay revolves around mechanics that are unique ti the scenario and required a lot of development and balancing to make it a worthwhile experience.

    Island expeditions were sweet little pieces of content that worked quite well but the whole concept got skewed the moment it became a race against time.

    Torghast has no interesting value in my eyes, it is a race that takes the same amount of time as a mm+, it is incredibly imbalanced (I remember restoshams breaking the whole thing so fast). Maybe it has to do with the rythm there, but I was bored most of the times I spent there and it didn't feel rewarding.

    I feel like island expedition should make a comeback but it would be really interesting if it was directly in the overworld
    Island expeditions failed in my eyes because of the heavy focus on being timed, and having to be in a group. It could have worked if it was solo (though maybe with an option to be in a group), with more focus on random encounters and mini quests.

    Warfronts similarly failed because they tried to capture the RTS vibe of massive battles, forgetting that most of the units are grunt units, not hero unit moved individually by the player.
    Had it been 5-man it probably would have worked. Just make each player command massive groups that is slowly built up. Rather than 30 players being timegated on where to go and when.

    In both cases they failed because the MMO aspect interfered with the game, which is kinda telling.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #4014
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Island expeditions failed in my eyes because of the heavy focus on being timed, and having to be in a group. It could have worked if it was solo (though maybe with an option to be in a group), with more focus on random encounters and mini quests.
    Yeah, I wanted to be able to like, explore a bit. Instead the timer and whatnot I barely even see where I'm going, just focusing on being a meat grinder.

  15. #4015
    I liked Island Expeditions. They were one of the few good things about BFA. I found the questing experience to be boring so I reached 120 doing island expeditions. Sadly that content was abandoned.

  16. #4016
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    I'll preface by saying I didn't play the Heroic variants, but I thought Warfronts were one of the absolute biggest misses they've had in a long time. Basically unloseable 20 minute games that play out the same every single time with no meaningful variation where the majority of gameplay is collecting resources in a small area to get to the next stage. Darkshore inexplicably doubled down on the tedium, with a lengthier prelude to the actual warfront and drastically reducing the amount of stone you could collect, making a solid chunk of the experience just sitting and waiting for more ore or mobs at the mine to spawn so you could eventually get to glaive throwers. There is no fun factor to them at all beyond the novelty of your first time experiencing it. I've heard the Heroic versions made them a more demanding challenge, but it's clear it was a too little too late situation, and I can't imagine wanting to spend even more time in the Darkshore warfront.
    Nah heroics were less challenging than normal raids. You just made a point to not invite people who had abysmal ilvl and the gear alone just did the job.

    I think Arathi could have been tuned up to be a real challenge. Balance things so people need to get their upgrades ASAP, make the enemy forces far more dangerous and have them keep pushing and you'd end up with people having to actually optimise to complete them.
    Darkshore's entire design was just BAD. As you said the first part took forever and then actually making units was just not efficient. Even later in the expansion I could do Heroic Arathi and I'd still have fully upgraded chargers by the time we hit the boss (and do several times more damage than people who did not bother to use the units). Meanwhile in Darkshore getting the upgrades past the point necessary to progress was just too slow and the few times I had upgraded units they did not feel as impactful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Island expeditions failed in my eyes because of the heavy focus on being timed, and having to be in a group. It could have worked if it was solo (though maybe with an option to be in a group), with more focus on random encounters and mini quests.
    As I said, if you replaced the timed aspect with a Torghast gameplay model (solo to small group, some version of power upgrade to spice things up) IEs (especially solo versions) would have been much more popular. Because the random encounters and the mini quests already existed, you just didn't have the time to notice them because you were constantly in a rush.

  17. #4017
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    I actually like Islands since 8.1 update. The environmental variety was a big win for me, especially when you compare it to ridiculously drab and samey Torghast. Snowy island, volcano island, Pandaren village, forgotten Gilnean town etc.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-04-13 at 05:47 PM.
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  18. #4018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I actually like Islands since 8.1 update. The environmental variety was a big win for me, especially when you compare it to ridiculously drab and samey Torghast. Snowy island, volcano island, Pandaren village, forgotten Gilnean town etc.
    Still, imagine grinding this thing instead of exploring new continent on your first character xD.

    In general biggest mistake for both Islands and Torghast is making it part of power progression. Torghast was way more fun when I cleared it just for meta achiev, same with Islands now when I solo them for cosmetics. Somehow only new content that avoided that fate were Horrific Visions, it was part of progression but wasn't hated even when it was current.

  19. #4019
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Still, imagine grinding this thing instead of exploring new continent on your first character xD.
    Grinding? 2-4 runs for weekly, depending on difficulty.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  20. #4020
    I'm still confused about the whole "borrowed power" grinding thing. I never, not a single time, felt that I had to grind anything. Just by playing the game everything came naturally, and that goes for both Legion and BfA. And during Shadowlands I did +16 keys every week so it's not like I was unable to play the game. :shrug:
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