1. #4021
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    My Torghast opinion is too controversial, I'll leave it at that. Islands having no timer is a fair concession I'll accept. Still miffed about WQs currently.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  2. #4022
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    My Torghast opinion is too controversial, I'll leave it at that. Islands having no timer is a fair concession I'll accept. Still miffed about WQs currently.
    I had two main gripes about Torghast
    a) When they revealed it at Blizzcon it was supposed to be a progression path. Specifically it was supposed to unlock Vault loot. They never explained anything beyond that (mainly, what level of loot). If they had restricted it to Heroic ilvl, it would have been far more interesting and a progression path for anyone interested
    b) My main issue with it was that the mob and environment variety was pitiful. We did see minor incursions from other Shadowland planes beyond the Maw. WHY not have entire levels that look like Maw-dominated versions of those places; the Jailer was extending chains to grasp places from the In-Between. It would have allowed for so much more variety.

  3. #4023
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    WHY not have entire levels that look like Maw-dominated versions of those places; the Jailer was extending chains to grasp places from the In-Between. It would have allowed for so much more variety.
    That tied into one of the biggest missed opportunities with Shadowlands. You hear that there are countless different realms in the Shadowlands, but you only see four. You never even hear descriptions about other realms or even names. Only the four. Patch 7.3 had the event in Argus where you take portals to other worlds. Even if they were just reused assets, they did make the cosmos feel a little bigger.

    Another issue is that the Shadowlands was supposed to service not just Azeroth, but all worlds in the cosmos, but ingame you only see Azeroth races + Orcs + Draenei. The only aliens are that dead guy from the Draka cinematic, and the two unicorns in the Night Fae Covenant, but their ingame models aren't aliens and they look indistinguishable from Azeroth druids/spirits. Blizzard couldn't even be bothered to reskin existing rigs to show some aliens ingame.


  4. #4024
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    I'm a firm believer that housing can be made into wow but it has to be miles ahead of what the competition offers in terms of immersion. No instanced housing, have your place visible by anyone. Not just a place to isolate yourself, but one that gives you something of value.
    Instanced doesn't mean isolated.

    And it has to be instanced, at least in the way garrisons were.
    It needs sharding or some kind of "infinite carpet" to allow everyone, even on heavily populated realms, to be able to build a house.

    Limited plots and either a lottery like in FFXIV or "be one of the first few hundred to cough up the million gold for a house", that would absolutely ruin the feature. Obviously, it shouldn't be a guild-exclusive feature either.

    Sure, make it expensive, but allow anyone with that gold, anytime, to start a house.
    Allow them to make their house public or private, allow them to move to a different region/city.
    Gold costs and/or cooldowns on that would disencourage doing these changes too often.
    Alts should be able to create their own houses.

    Even shared houses on bigger plots don't have to be guild-specific, instead your character lives there with a handful of housemates, be that the chars of your friends or your alts.

    One last thing:
    It has to be a pure gold sink. No way to earn gold or other progression (except achievements to unlock more customization options) meaning it shouldn't be another Garrison.
    I would even try to prevent in-game competitions for the "prettiest house". Your dwelling should be a reflection of your character's RP and you own artistic choices that cannot, should not be quantified.
    Qualitative comparisons to other players' works can only lead to elitism and toxicity, and an automated system using arbitrary "scores" of used decorations like in Animal Crossing is just silly and stifles expression.
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  5. #4025
    Which MMO released after 2010 has un-instanced housing?

    I haven't played the newer ones, so idk... It's possible to have enough room in a 3D World for half the population of a given realm?

  6. #4026
    Quote Originally Posted by Murlocos View Post
    I'll preface by saying I didn't play the Heroic variants, but I thought Warfronts were one of the absolute biggest misses they've had in a long time. Basically unloseable 20 minute games that play out the same every single time with no meaningful variation where the majority of gameplay is collecting resources in a small area to get to the next stage. Darkshore inexplicably doubled down on the tedium, with a lengthier prelude to the actual warfront and drastically reducing the amount of stone you could collect, making a solid chunk of the experience just sitting and waiting for more ore or mobs at the mine to spawn so you could eventually get to glaive throwers. There is no fun factor to them at all beyond the novelty of your first time experiencing it. I've heard the Heroic versions made them a more demanding challenge, but it's clear it was a too little too late situation, and I can't imagine wanting to spend even more time in the Darkshore warfront.
    I find that somewhat tragic, since I think they were an extraordinarily cool concept—had they just been structured more like Wintergrasp or Tol Barad, I imagine they'd be quite well-received. An opt-in system, yet still strictly in the open world like the aforementioned used to be, would be very fun and interesting to experiment with. They definitely should have been a PvP feature—either partially or exclusively. I think Battle for Azeroth was the perfect opportunity to finally give PvP some much-needed love, and it was really squandered. I could see an alternate Battle for Azeroth in which Warfronts were little more than something resembling Tol Barad or Winterspring, with PvE questing existing alongside PvP gameplay in the open world, with the questing and PvP both helping to determine who dominates the battleground for the time being.

  7. #4027
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Which MMO released after 2010 has un-instanced housing?
    ArcheAge, I think, but there was a lot of drama at launch surrounding about botters who acquired land very quickly. But that game is a sandbox PvP MMO more along the lines of Ultima Online than a casual game like retail WoW.

    The solution is instancing, be it in an isolated map or in the open world like the Halfhill Farm/Garrison.

  8. #4028
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    ArcheAge, I think, but there was a lot of drama at launch surrounding about botters who acquired land very quickly. But that game is a sandbox PvP MMO more along the lines of Ultima Online than a casual game like retail WoW.

    The solution is instancing, be it in an isolated map or in the open world like the Halfhill Farm/Garrison.
    I think WoW might have enough room if they put 30-40 houses in each zone of every expansion.
    Last edited by Luck4; 2023-04-14 at 03:12 AM.

  9. #4029
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I think WoW might have enough room if they put 30-40 houses in each of zone of every expansion.
    Limited housing is meaningless in a cross-realm world where you don't see the same people online each time you play. Almost everyone you see is someone you will probably never see again. If this was WoW classic where server communities were still a thing? Sure. But this is retail. Give everyone their own house wherever they want.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2023-04-14 at 03:15 AM.

  10. #4030
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    I think WoW might have enough room if they put 30-40 houses in each zone of every expansion.
    I suggest you try counting them. I doubt that would be remotely enough.

  11. #4031
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I suggest you try counting them. I doubt that would be remotely enough.
    Yeah, I know some people will be left out, especially in high/full realms, and even then, the vast majority of the lucky house owners would end up in places they don't like.

  12. #4032
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Yeah, I know some people will be left out, especially in high/full realms, and even then, the vast majority of the lucky house owners would end up in places they don't like.
    I really don't see the appeal of this—what is this supposed to have over instanced housing, again?

  13. #4033
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I really don't see the appeal of this—what is this supposed to have over instanced housing, again?
    Just more exposition, but I was mostly wondering if this was possible or not, un-instanced housing is something extremely rare.

    Maybe we can have instanced neighborhoods for guilds/friends, would be fun to see other people's homes without needing to be in the same group.

  14. #4034
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Just more exposition, but I was mostly wondering if this was possible or not, un-instanced housing is something extremely rare.

    Maybe we can have instanced neighborhoods for guilds/friends, would be fun to see other people's homes without needing to be in the same group.
    I do agree with neighborhoods—guild halls are also practically a requisite if we're also getting player housing, in my mind. Guild halls would be an incredibly nice thing to have, and I think they would add to, rather than detract from, the sense of community. If anything, the only concern about player housing I have is that it would be likely to pull more people out of cities, so neighborhoods would be a nice way of preempting that.

    On the topic of uninstanced housing, I definitely don't see that working—the game is simply too populated, even in an incredibly diminished state, to support it. Maybe, to build a bit on what you suggested before, uninstanced houses could be an incredibly rare reward for events akin to the old Scarab Gate event—though I think that would be best if instead the competition was to allow a certain guild to claim ownership over a guild hall on a server. Overall, though, I think it's effectively required that player housing be fully instanced.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-04-14 at 04:25 AM.

  15. #4035
    Anyway, I'm probably delusional, brainstorming ideas about Housing/World Revamp, two things that may never happen, LMAO.

  16. #4036
    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Anyway, I'm probably delusional, brainstorming ideas about Housing/World Revamp, two things that may never happen, LMAO.
    Copium is often more enjoyable than reality—it's why I entertain the thought.

  17. #4037
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I do agree with neighborhoods—guild halls are also practically a requisite if we're also getting player housing, in my mind. Guild halls would be an incredibly nice thing to have, and I think they would add to, rather than detract from, the sense of community. If anything, the only concern about player housing I have is that it would be likely to pull more people out of cities, so neighborhoods would be a nice way of preempting that.
    Would definitely be cool, the neighborhood and the guild hall as some sort of town hall.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Copium is often more enjoyable than reality—it's why I entertain the thought.
    Indeed!

  18. #4038
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    --snip--
    this is exactly what shouldn't be done with housing in wow. There is nothing of value to be gained by the majority of casual players there.

  19. #4039
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Yeah, I know some people will be left out, especially in high/full realms, and even then, the vast majority of the lucky house owners would end up in places they don't like.
    Not to mention that "zones" don't really exist anymore as an element of a server's identity. Sharding saw to that. It's not like I can have a cozy little hut in the Barrens on Sargeras, since there is no such thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I do agree with neighborhoods—guild halls are also practically a requisite if we're also getting player housing, in my mind. Guild halls would be an incredibly nice thing to have, and I think they would add to, rather than detract from, the sense of community. If anything, the only concern about player housing I have is that it would be likely to pull more people out of cities, so neighborhoods would be a nice way of preempting that.
    Personally, I'd like to see guild halls as the central feature of the housing system. They should serve as the main "keep" with a few dozen smaller plots around it for members to snatch up, and a "barracks"-type building to give singular rooms to the rest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I really don't see the appeal of this—what is this supposed to have over instanced housing, again?
    The appeal is that it helps to sell the setting as a living world that you can have a material effect upon, in some small way. But that simply isn't the type of game WoW is. And as mentioned, it's likely incompatible entirely with their server infrastructure now even if they wanted to entertain the thought.

  20. #4040
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I find that somewhat tragic, since I think they were an extraordinarily cool concept—had they just been structured more like Wintergrasp or Tol Barad, I imagine they'd be quite well-received. An opt-in system, yet still strictly in the open world like the aforementioned used to be, would be very fun and interesting to experiment with. They definitely should have been a PvP feature—either partially or exclusively. I think Battle for Azeroth was the perfect opportunity to finally give PvP some much-needed love, and it was really squandered. I could see an alternate Battle for Azeroth in which Warfronts were little more than something resembling Tol Barad or Winterspring, with PvE questing existing alongside PvP gameplay in the open world, with the questing and PvP both helping to determine who dominates the battleground for the time being.
    Well, to be fair, they did implemented War Mode, which I believe it's the best thing they've done in many, many years. And the PvP became quite good back then, those endless battles at Nazjatar were beautiful. I spent hours doing WPvP there and it never got old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I do agree with neighborhoods—guild halls are also practically a requisite if we're also getting player housing, in my mind. Guild halls would be an incredibly nice thing to have, and I think they would add to, rather than detract from, the sense of community. If anything, the only concern about player housing I have is that it would be likely to pull more people out of cities, so neighborhoods would be a nice way of preempting that.

    On the topic of uninstanced housing, I definitely don't see that working—the game is simply too populated, even in an incredibly diminished state, to support it. Maybe, to build a bit on what you suggested before, uninstanced houses could be an incredibly rare reward for events akin to the old Scarab Gate event—though I think that would be best if instead the competition was to allow a certain guild to claim ownership over a guild hall on a server. Overall, though, I think it's effectively required that player housing be fully instanced.
    Lord of the Rings Online did it right I think. They had instanced neighborhoods, you went there and found a bunch of houses of different shapes and sizes, and you could meet their owners in the same area. Even the crappiest mob around the world dropped stuff to decorate your house, it was quite the fun activity.
    LotrO may have been a carbon copy of WoW in many aspects, but the latter has tons of things to learn from them, especially regarding classes. LotrO had the Minstrel class, which worked perfectly, now that everybody talks about bards.
    Last edited by GabrielKnight; 2023-04-14 at 02:19 PM.
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