1. #4421
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    We already had all of this addressed in legion and again night elfs and dragons are apples and oranges.

    Hyjal is there ancestral home, they have never left it, they don’t want to go back to the old ways that was the blood elfs, even those born of suamar don’t want to go back and don’t like those who still live there showcased by Tyrande in legion.
    Not sure why you keep repeating this false claim.

    Hyjal is not their ancestral home. Hyjal is where Cenarius dwelled, and because Malfurion was his apprentice it became important to Night Elves as well. Their ancestral home was around the Well of Eternity in the middle of ancient Kalimdor.

  2. #4422
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    My point is: Theres COUNTLESS opportunities to make something in game. Or to (re)build some old zones/cities.

    But instead, developers spend their time on new big-bad-evil guys who have 2-3 sentences throughout whole expansion. Or they waste their time designing items that dont even belong to warcraft franchies/style (e.g. some crappy tmogs, hair colours, mounts... etc, etc, etc....)
    Your point is like, dumb? "New big-bad-evil guys", AKA raid/dungeon bosses are essential, since it's PvE content that is the cornerstone of the game. What are you suggesting? Should Blizz cut PvE content so they can rehash old capitals? And "items that don't even belong to warcraft franchise" is purely subjective. Does the jester mog not fit in WoW, despite looking pretty darn cool? Or the tier sets/weapons we get each patch? But your idea is "Yo guys, go do stuff in that zone you had since vanilla, instead of having a brand new palces!". I am defo sure players would be thrilled.

    Also, the ARE going back to old zones. Battlefield Barrens in MoP, Uldir and Vale in BfA, and so on. But for some reason they are not enjoyed as any new zone they release, and Blizz gets flak each time they revamp old place for being "lazy". Weird, isn't it?
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-04-20 at 09:06 PM.
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  3. #4423
    Night elf "bloodthirst" and "xenophobia" are complete memes. The Night Elves when they met humans and orcs were a continent-spanning empire. For the sake of beating the Legion, they sacrificed their immortality and world tree, losing Hyjal. Then, for the sake of an inexplicable, nonsensical alliance with humanity they lost their gender roles, nocturnal lifecycle and geopolitical independence. Then all their lands were contested by the orcs. Then they lost some of those in the Shattering. Then they lost their capital to the Horde and a bunch of civilians. Then they had to live on the streets, fight in a suicide army and be denied direct help for the war to take back their lands. Then their goddess fucked over their racial leader before she could kill the woman who ordered the murder and consignment to hell of most of their population.

    Night Elf support of other races has been an unmitigated failure that in the span of a blink of an eye where their thousand-year lifespan was concerned turned them from masters of a big part of the world into the vestigial vassal of a human kingdom. This isn't arguable, it's just an objective fact. To reject all that to revert back to a vastly better status quo isn't backwardness, it's the only rational position anyone could take.
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  4. #4424
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    Not sure why you keep repeating this false claim.

    Hyjal is not their ancestral home. Hyjal is where Cenarius dwelled, and because Malfurion was his apprentice it became important to Night Elves as well. Their ancestral home was around the Well of Eternity in the middle of ancient Kalimdor.
    Because it’s not a false claim and you just don’t know the lore or how any thing works.

    Them evolving around the well doesn’t make it there one true ancestral home just like humans don’t only say they come from Africa even though that’s where they started.

    Night elfs as a culture have always lived around hyjal the majority of there city’s were around hyjal and only a handful are known to come from else where.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #4425
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Because it’s not a false claim and you just don’t know the lore or how any thing works.

    Them evolving around the well doesn’t make it there one true ancestral home just like humans don’t only say they come from Africa even though that’s where they started.

    Night elfs as a culture have always lived around hyjal the majority of there city’s were around hyjal and only a handful are known to come from else where.
    That is literally nonsense, and your suggestion that I don't know my lore is highly ironic.

    I suggest you read up on Zin-Azshari and Suramar. Major cities, home to the majority of Night Elves during the height of their civilization, and birthplace of virtually all well known Night Elves.

    Again, I'm not dismissing the importance of Mount Hyjal or what we now call Kalimdor. They are vital parts of Night Elven history and culture. But to call them their ancestral home, or to suggest their culture was always primarily situated around Mount Hyjal, displays a gross ignorance of the lore.

  6. #4426
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    While I agree (again) that Mount Hyjal and all the surrounding forests, including Nordrassil, are important and should remain important, I wholly disagree with you guys' assertion that this is the only area of any importance in Night Elven history.

    The argument I'm making is that just as the Dragons returned home to their ancestral home, so could the Night Elves. That's the context of why I'm arguing with you all on the importance of the entire Kaldorei Empire.

    Ten or fifteen years ago, our idea of the Dragons was that they had a few important locations in the world. For the Red flight, it was the Ruby Dragonshrine, Vermillion Redoubt, Wyrmrest Temple and so on. For the Black, it was Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding area, parts of Outland, and so on. You get the idea. But then we were introduced to the idea that the Dragon Isles was, in fact, something they considered to be their ancestral home. Upon returning there, even after 10K years away, it still felt like their home. We found out they had a rich culture, a developed society, hell, aqueducts and cities...

    Because Night Elven society spanned aross the entire known world, more or less, it not only makes sense that there is more for them out there, but also that they'd feel a deep connection upon returning there. It is likely many of the now living Night Elves were born elsewhere other than the forests around Hyjal.

    So while I personally would prefer if Nordrassil became their new home, I could feasibly see a scenario in which interesting lore is developed over the coming months, making a different location make sense to us.
    And where would this rediscovered new land with Ancient Kaldorei heartland be?

    Kaldorei Empire spanned over Ancient Kalimdor. We have already the most important areas of Ancient Kalimdor available on Kalimdor, Northrend, EK, Pandaria, Broken Isles and Zandalar. The heart of their Civilization was sunk into the sea. After the explosion, Kaldorei settled on norht end of Modern Kalimdor, and abandoned pretty much anything else. Hyjal is and has been centre of their culture since Sundering.

  7. #4427
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    A revamp of Mount Hyjal would be fine. Execution of it matters when it comes to old zones though. Also umm I am not not of the opinion that we should never revamp old places. As I said above its how they do it that matters, and that they don't rely on it.
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  8. #4428
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    That is literally nonsense, and your suggestion that I don't know my lore is highly ironic.

    I suggest you read up on Zin-Azshari and Suramar. Major cities, home to the majority of Night Elves during the height of their civilization, and birthplace of virtually all well known Night Elves.

    Again, I'm not dismissing the importance of Mount Hyjal or what we now call Kalimdor. They are vital parts of Night Elven history and culture. But to call them their ancestral home, or to suggest their culture was always primarily situated around Mount Hyjal, displays a gross ignorance of the lore.
    Zin-Azshari was sunk into the sea, functionally destroyed and is now home to the Naga. Bit wet for Night Elf resettlement.

    Suramar fared better and is still inhabited by the people who were there 10k years ago. They just aren't part of modern Kaldorei people anymore, so Kaldorei can't set up shop there either.

  9. #4429
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    And where would this rediscovered new land with Ancient Kaldorei heartland be?

    Kaldorei Empire spanned over Ancient Kalimdor. We have already the most important areas of Ancient Kalimdor available on Kalimdor, Northrend, EK, Pandaria, Broken Isles and Zandalar. The heart of their Civilization was sunk into the sea. After the explosion, Kaldorei settled on norht end of Modern Kalimdor, and abandoned pretty much anything else. Hyjal is and has been centre of their culture since Sundering.
    I'm not saying there will be some rediscovered piece of land, I'm just saying there could be. Just like Blizzard developed the lore around the Dragon Isles to a point where it suddenly made sense to players that the dragons were "coming home at last", they could do something similar with the Night Elves.

    For all we know, we could be sitting here a month from now, going "oh crap, it makes so much sense now! Of course Tyrande takes up seat in Ladidadida-ahran, and obviously Malfurion has invited players to dwell among the barrows of Lolnassus!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Zin-Azshari was sunk into the sea, functionally destroyed and is now home to the Naga. Bit wet for Night Elf resettlement.

    Suramar fared better and is still inhabited by the people who were there 10k years ago. They just aren't part of modern Kaldorei people anymore, so Kaldorei can't set up shop there either.
    And I'm not suggesting they relocate there. I'm only bringing them up as evidence to prove my claim that Mount Hyjal, despite its importance to Night Elves, is not their ancestral home as some people seem to believe.

  10. #4430
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    I'm not saying there will be some rediscovered piece of land, I'm just saying there could be. Just like Blizzard developed the lore around the Dragon Isles to a point where it suddenly made sense to players that the dragons were "coming home at last", they could do something similar with the Night Elves.

    For all we know, we could be sitting here a month from now, going "oh crap, it makes so much sense now! Of course Tyrande takes up seat in Ladidadida-ahran, and obviously Malfurion has invited players to dwell among the barrows of Lolnassus!"

    - - - Updated - - -



    And I'm not suggesting they relocate there. I'm only bringing them up as evidence to prove my claim that Mount Hyjal, despite its importance to Night Elves, is not their ancestral home as some people seem to believe.
    Problem is that Night Elf history is better defined than Dragons were. Asspulling Zan-Izshare as the true ancestral Night Elf capital is way bigger stretch than expanding Dragon Isles as the Dragon homeland. Before DF we only had their name and the fact that it was ancient land for dragons.

  11. #4431
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Problem is that Night Elf history is better defined than Dragons were. Asspulling Zan-Izshare as the true ancestral Night Elf capital is way bigger stretch than expanding Dragon Isles as the Dragon homeland. Before DF we only had their name and the fact that it was ancient land for dragons.
    But it's literally not an act of aspulling. It's right there in every lore text and every book concerning Night Elf history. Zin-Azshari was the capital city of the Kaldorei Empire. It's not a ret-con, it's not fan-fic, and it's not a stretch. It's where the majority of them lived and where much of their history played out.

    They then relocated to Mount Hyjal, and because the destruction of the continent separated them from basically everything but modern Kalimdor, that's where they remained and further developed their culture into something more druidic.

  12. #4432
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    and your suggestion that I don't know my lore is highly ironic
    It's also a fact.

    Here is the dark trolls (night elfs) holding and how they were already in the area around hyjal before they were even elves.

    it's there ancestral home and always has been and while there are other places they lived the core of there once empire is now filled with fish and and of the very few we know come form Suamar they don't want any thing to do with it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #4433
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    Haven't seen this forum pop off like this since the announcement of Dragonflight.

  14. #4434
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    But it's literally not an act of aspulling. It's right there in every lore text and every book concerning Night Elf history. Zin-Azshari was the capital city of the Kaldorei Empire. It's not a ret-con, it's not fan-fic, and it's not a stretch. It's where the majority of them lived and where much of their history played out.

    They then relocated to Mount Hyjal, and because the destruction of the continent separated them from basically everything but modern Kalimdor, that's where they remained and further developed their culture into something more druidic.
    Night Elf had a strong connection to Hyjal before they turned into an empire, at that time even Cenarius had contact with them (but somehow never thought to taught then in his druid ways). The modern Night Elf reject the empire and their former queen and Hyjal and Ashenvale are their home it is the Zuldazar of the Night Elfs.

  15. #4435
    "Kalimdor" is already trending on twitter. i can only imagine what's going to happen when the patch is actually out lol

  16. #4436
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    It's also a fact.

    Here is the dark trolls (night elfs) holding and how they were already in the area around hyjal before they were even elves.

    it's there ancestral home and always has been and while there are other places they lived the core of there once empire is now filled with fish and and of the very few we know come form Suamar they don't want any thing to do with it.
    The region where Dark Trolls lived isn't very important. It's where they became Night Elves that is important, which took place around the vicinity of the Well of Eternity. The Night Elves then built the seat of their culture around this region, before spreading into the west to occupy Mount Hyjal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Night Elf had a strong connection to Hyjal before they turned into an empire, at that time even Cenarius had contact with them (but somehow never thought to taught then in his druid ways). The modern Night Elf reject the empire and their former queen and Hyjal and Ashenvale are their home it is the Zuldazar of the Night Elfs.
    Nothing I've said suggests otherwise. I know Hyjal was and is important to them. Nor have I suggested that surviving Kaldorei didn't reject Queen Azshara's rule eventually, or that Ashenvale isn't to be considered their current home. Everybody knows this. Northern Kalimdor is their home. There's no discussion.

    What I'm talking about is the fact that Zin-Azshari and Suramar are their ancestral homes. It's where their culture began, developed, and spread. It was the seat of their power. It's arguably still where most living Night Elves were born.

    I'm not saying they should go live among those ruins, I'm not saying Mount Hyjal isn't their home today, and I'm not saying Mount Hyjal hasn't been important throughout their history. Let's clarify that once and for all, and stop suggesting I've claimed otherwise.

  17. #4437
    Quote Originally Posted by Worldshaper View Post
    But it's literally not an act of aspulling. It's right there in every lore text and every book concerning Night Elf history. Zin-Azshari was the capital city of the Kaldorei Empire. It's not a ret-con, it's not fan-fic, and it's not a stretch. It's where the majority of them lived and where much of their history played out.

    They then relocated to Mount Hyjal, and because the destruction of the continent separated them from basically everything but modern Kalimdor, that's where they remained and further developed their culture into something more druidic.
    Yes. Zin-Azshari was the capital of Kaldorei Empire. It was destroyed in The Sundering.

    My hypothetical Zan-Izshare is complete asspull, with no precedent, and would require inventing up new landmass altohether since it is obviously absent on any known piece of Ancient Kalimdor.

  18. #4438
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    In that they're a poorly-conceived knockoff of the Titans?
    Better explanation would be that most player races are Titan creations or related beings, so it would be a logical startoff.

  19. #4439
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    And though the Air Elemental place was just a dungeon I fel like we got the general gist of the place plenty.
    Missed opportunity to have an Air Elemental Plane zone where you explore floating cities, ie a Suramar zone you can spend dozens to hundreds of hours in, not just a linear 15 minute dungeon.







    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    People want the world to feel bigger but then bitch that the Dragon isles is actually made relevant outside of this expansion.

    Baffling.
    Outland hasn't been relevant after TBC. Northrend hasn't been relevant after Wrath. The Cata zones of Hyjal/Uldum/Vashjr/Twilight Highlands haven't been relevant after Cata. Pandaria hasn't been relevant after MoP. AU Draenor hasn't been relevant after WoD. The list goes on. The Dragon Isles won't be relevant after DF.


    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    let's not suddenly expect it will be some big, new player hub. Especially when considering that faction division is still a thing (or maybe it will be a next step towards unification?).
    Horde should never be allowed to walk around Night Elf territory. There is no way the populace at large could forgive them. Similarly, Horde should never be able to walk around Stormwind, the human kingdom they destroyed. But we've already crossed that bridge when Belves joined the very Horde that were slaughtering them during the Second War.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    New race capital cities would only make sense if there is content in them or in reach around them so you have a reason to be there.
    If all hubs shared the same services, then the playerbase would spread out and chill in their favorite hub of choice in between queues. Stormwind and Orgrimmar and Warspear and Stormshield were still populated during WoD even though people could have just sat in their garrisons. Thunder Bluff and Silvermoon didn't have transmog vendors so ofcourse people are going to avoid those places and chill in places that do.

    GW2 has 19 player cities and smaller hubs and continues to add more. All of them are populated to the map limit. Server communities on retail died long ago so there is no reason why Blizzard can't just rewire their megaserver system to keep the smaller hubs populated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Danuser did specifically reference retaking Gilneas as "something they would want players to do" so I think that cities are something they're thinking about, but only forwhen it's relevant (expansions that feature the main continents again).
    The time to retake Gilneas from Sylvanas was during the war with Sylvanas expansion. That expansion is over. It has been five years since that war ended. We will never get to play through a questline retaking Gilneas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    Me too, but I think most people won't. Even on RP servers most capitals were usually pretty empty.
    The game's population is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago I could have walked into Thunder Bluff, Iron Forge, Darnassus, Undercity, or Silvermoon and have seen lots of players. The only way those places will be populated again is if they are given the same utilities as the current expansion's capital, and Blizzard utilizes cross realm phasing to keep those places sufficiently populated, like in GW2.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    Too many people don't care about the lore for Nelves to be what the hardcore Nelf players want them to be. It's never going to happen and especially not after the fanbase reaction to BFA.
    There were many, many fans who yearned for the Nelves to be badass again. It didn't happen because the only people at Blizzard who were in a position of authority over the story content were Horde fans.




    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I doubt the Nelves are really uncaring about the Green Dragons being neutral to what happened to Teldrassil.
    The elephant in the room is that almost everyone on Azeroth should be against the Horde. Every time they're the ones launching unprovoked attacks and wiping whole cities and kingdoms off of the face of the Earth. They are the enemy of civilization. It's bizzare that the dragons overlook the Horde when only a few years prior their queen was enslaved by orcs and then raped and her children enslaved and then murdered when they were growing up and becoming too dangerous to control. The Horde desecrated the Pandaren's most sacred place, and when the Horde goes wiping out civilization again the Pandaren for some reason don't help the Alliance stop the barbarians. Except for Goblins, every race that joined the Horde after vanilla are insane as they had no reason to join the enemy of civilization. "Tyrande was unkind to me once" isn't a reason to align yourself with the loser barbarians against civilization.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    This is basically how it's going down on WoW twitter. I have already seen posts about how if it's not on Kalimdor, the story is pro-colonization and pro-fascism because it means the "Horde won" and are kicking the Nelves out of Kalimdor.
    The Horde has been colonizing and kicking races out of Kalimdor since WC3. Ask the Quilboar.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Hell, even Val'sharah, a place which has the Dream superimposed onto Azeroth (a literal "Life island") is vastly more favorable, as a place with Nelf related history, than on the Dragon isles. (Which has no relations to the nelves beyond a theme overlap).
    Val'sharah would be terrible. The Night Elves would be surrounded by two Horde factions, and given that Blizzard's narrative purports that being good = being passive and that being proactive = evil, the Alliance would not help the Night Elves subdue their enemies and make the Broken Isles a safe home for them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Horde favoritism is still a thing even after all these years and all the dev team changes, and also despite the factions being blurred. It's hopeless...
    The issue is that there are only two playable factions, and out of those two factions only one of them is unique. The Horde - a faction where you can play as the evil monstrous beastmen - is what is unique about WoW. It has all of the cool races. People who like Alliance aesthetics have an easy time transitioning to other games, decreasing Alliance's population. If you want to be a pretty, heroic human, then you have literally every other MMO out there ready and waiting for you. People who like Horde aesthetics don't have an alternative game to switch to and are more likely to stick with WoW. WoW has been in decline for a decade so over the years you just wind up having more reds than blues.

    The people at Blizzard who made WC3 and remembered its unique factions of Night Elves and Scourge are long gone. The people working today at NuBlizzard have no memory of those cool factions. Their only experience is with WoW and its boring Alliance and cool Horde. It is only natural that given the choice, the people working on Warcraft are more excited to make Horde content than Alliance content.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    I want to know where all this favoritism was during Legion, BfA or Shadowlands.
    They get to regularly commit mass murder and get away with it scott free. Meanwhile, the Alliance is forced to pull their punches and watch their cities wiped off of the face of the earth one by one, and never definitively eliminate evil.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    When did the "World of Warcraft" become "Turn the other Cheek?"
    Since MoP apparently, when Taran-Zhu made a false moral equivalency between the Alliance and the barbarians they were defending themselves from. And that incredibly, incredibly stupid and insulting moralizing from the Tavern in the Mists panda about "how the Horde and Alliance are strong because of one another!" *spits*. According to Blizzard, trying to excise evil and dangerous actors from this world is wrong.

  20. #4440
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Yes. Zin-Azshari was the capital of Kaldorei Empire. It was destroyed in The Sundering.

    My hypothetical Zan-Izshare is complete asspull, with no precedent, and would require inventing up new landmass altohether since it is obviously absent on any known piece of Ancient Kalimdor.
    To play the devil's advocate here for a bit. The Dragon Isles worked precisely because there was a stretch of time between the uplifting of dragons and the shattering. You could conceivably create some new lore on the pre-azsharan Nelves creating other cities other places. We do have lore on supposed dragonriding Nelves, so we know that some coexistence between them existed.

    Now. I will say that i would dislike placing this hypothetical pre-azsharan druidic society more closely linked to modern Nelves on the Dragon Isles. But I do think it's possible as a bit of a stretch.
    If they were going for something similar then the hypothetical Avaloren continent on the backside of Azeroth would work better as a refuge from those who consider Azshara to blaspheme against Elune.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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