1. #4661
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    In a way that's why Rastakhan's death worked so well for me. He had just got his head back in the game, he was finally taking charge of the situation, and then he was gone. He really was struck down on his prime which made his death even more impactful were he had been just incompetent. Yes, it's crueler, but also made it so more memorable.

    My issue is that BfA kinda failed use that to galvanize Talanji as the new Queen. She just kinda faded away from the narrative as a major player.
    It didn't work for me, because he was gone almost instaly after being introduced. He literally lasted for one patch span. I wanted more of him, and you saying that Talanji election eventually lead nowhere is even bigger proof that this change was for nothing.
    I'd rather if Fleet was destroyed but Jaina died. Jaina dying there would be better story for me.
    I miss Mists of Pandaria

  2. #4662
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    AI-generated images will make this the WILDEST leak season. Anyone with the will and the time to make a convincing mock up of a beta reveal will be able to do an extremely good job at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scyth View Post
    Can't wait for all the fake stories ChatGPT will create
    Oh boy... I forgot about AI...

  3. #4663
    Its going to be an amazing leak season.

    Honestly I cannot wait to know what the next expansion is about. DF is really good and I am pretty sure that we will get a 10.3 patch. I am excited to see how It ends, but I feel that next expansion would raise the bar even more.

    I still dream about the world revamp, but the other possibilities, IMO, the South Seas or Avaloren, could be awesome as well.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


  4. #4664
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    Its going to be an amazing leak season.

    Honestly I cannot wait to know what the next expansion is about. DF is really good and I am pretty sure that we will get a 10.3 patch. I am excited to see how It ends, but I feel that next expansion would raise the bar even more.

    I still dream about the world revamp, but the other possibilities, IMO, the South Seas or Avaloren, could be awesome as well.
    I don't really know. I was hoping for Dragon Isles to recapture the world building of MoP. And they did make the effort, especially with the Maruuk. But it just did not land for me. It lacks the whimsy of Halfhill, the Renown questlines don't have the impact of the Klaxxi attacking the Heart of Fear or the zone wide battle vs the Mogu in the Vale or even the end of the Shado Pan questline with the black drakes. It is a vast land but it somehow feels disconnected; Pandaria had a unifying theme with a variety of clear east Asian influences in the architecture, the landscape and the music that Dragon Isles lack. And most importantly there was a wealth of new lore that somehow managed to click right in place in the old lore without being disruptive. Dragon Isles just doesn't talk about the past; the Tuskar and Maruuk almost seem transient and we get so little information on what the Dragons and their servants did in the isles and what happened in these 10k years. Honestly the only point were I felt invested in the story because it was tying well with the world of Azeroth is with Veritastrasz (sp?). It's not even that it is shallow. The Maruuk have so much detail. But they feel like someone made a table of clans and just added one element on each column (role, character, favourite color, favored combat style)

    It might just be me.

    Avaloren would logically be something similar; a new land that should be all about world building and integrating its lore with the rest of WoW. And I just don't have faith that the team that did DF will do something better.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-26 at 10:16 AM.

  5. #4665
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really know. I was hoping for Dragon Isles to recapture the world building of MoP. And they did make the effort, especially with the Maruuk. But it just did not land for me. It lacks the whimsy of Halfhill, the Renown questlines don't have the impact of the Klaxxi attacking the Heart of Fear or the zone wide battle vs the Mogu in the Vale or even the end of the Shado Pan questline with the black drakes. It is a vast land but it somehow feels disconnected; Pandaria had a unifying theme with a variety of clear east Asian influences in the architecture, the landscape and the music that Dragon Isles lack. And most importantly there was a wealth of new lore that somehow managed to click right in place in the old lore without being disruptive. Dragon Isles just doesn't talk about the past; the Tuskar and Maruuk almost seem transient and we get so little information on what the Dragons and their servants did in the isles and what happened in these 10k years. Honestly the only point were I felt invested in the story because it was tying well with the world of Azeroth is with Veritastrasz (sp?). It's not even that it is shallow. The Maruuk have so much detail. But they feel like someone made a table of clans and just added one element on each column (role, character, favourite color, favored combat style)

    It might just be me.

    Avaloren would logically be something similar; a new land that should be all about world building and integrating its lore with the rest of WoW. And I just don't have faith that the team that did DF will do something better.
    They should have connected everything to Wyrmrest Temple.
    Sure, it's manipulative...to get a shine and reflective tone from the most popular expansion. But there were plenty of dragons involved, and a focus on Malygos, and the green dreamer Ysera, and the idea of an undead dragon in the form of Sindragosa. Ideas could have been expanded upon...

    Yea, I could write an anthology, "woulda...coulda...shoulda..."

  6. #4666
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    They should have connected everything to Wyrmrest Temple.
    Sure, it's manipulative...to get a shine and reflective tone from the most popular expansion. But there were plenty of dragons involved, and a focus on Malygos, and the green dreamer Ysera, and the idea of an undead dragon in the form of Sindragosa. Ideas could have been expanded upon...

    Yea, I could write an anthology, "woulda...coulda...shoulda..."
    There is nothing wrong with the concept of the Dragon Isles. Nothing wrong with the Tuskar there either. There are issues with the Maruuk but you could see them as an entirely new race that largely lived there and it would work. What is lacking is not a concept or a theme, it's history and it absolutely could have been done in the Dragon Isles.

  7. #4667
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    AI-generated images will make this the WILDEST leak season. Anyone with the will and the time to make a convincing mock up of a beta reveal will be able to do an extremely good job at it.
    I agree, we're in for a juicy leak season!

  8. #4668
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I mean traditionally, this was what we used to tell if a leak had legs or not. It's easy to make text predictions and format them decently. But the believable leaks either had support from datamining OR had support from visuals that looked like they could come from a press pack; things like concept art or potential screenshots. Screenshots are probably much easier to make these days than ever before; private server tech for building your own zones is much more accessible and at a much higher level than it was a decade ago. But concept art is just hard to fake; if you just grab it from somewhere, reverse image page will let everyone now within a page or two of the thread depending on traffic. But generating concept art for the fake leak you want to sell and picking whatever looks closest to Blizzard's art style is not that time consuming. And it is fantasy art so curious body proportions or a sixth finger don't really help.
    It will be much easier to pump these things out, I would imagine there is just going to be a lot more then we previously had in leak season. The guessing game, I mean in a way this is going to be either a lot of fun finding out if things are real or its just going to be so obvious and slightly off then we will notice it way sooner.

    Its been a while since we had some fun mockups and I hope we will see some nice work done with or without AI.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Take a well generated AI image, give it to someone with some Photoshop/illustrator skills to fix all the inconsistencies and make adjustments.

    Voila, you got yourself a believable Expansion logo with minimal effort.
    Yea, photoshop on top of AI would make for some scary believeable images. But we got some serious pros here, who are able to spot these pretty fast I would imagine. Skeptism is also strong, but who knows.

    Its kinda interesting.

  9. #4669
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't really know. I was hoping for Dragon Isles to recapture the world building of MoP. And they did make the effort, especially with the Maruuk. But it just did not land for me. It lacks the whimsy of Halfhill, the Renown questlines don't have the impact of the Klaxxi attacking the Heart of Fear or the zone wide battle vs the Mogu in the Vale or even the end of the Shado Pan questline with the black drakes. It is a vast land but it somehow feels disconnected; Pandaria had a unifying theme with a variety of clear east Asian influences in the architecture, the landscape and the music that Dragon Isles lack. And most importantly there was a wealth of new lore that somehow managed to click right in place in the old lore without being disruptive. Dragon Isles just doesn't talk about the past; the Tuskar and Maruuk almost seem transient and we get so little information on what the Dragons and their servants did in the isles and what happened in these 10k years. Honestly the only point were I felt invested in the story because it was tying well with the world of Azeroth is with Veritastrasz (sp?). It's not even that it is shallow. The Maruuk have so much detail. But they feel like someone made a table of clans and just added one element on each column (role, character, favourite color, favored combat style)

    It might just be me.

    Avaloren would logically be something similar; a new land that should be all about world building and integrating its lore with the rest of WoW. And I just don't have faith that the team that did DF will do something better.
    DF is shining in content, the cadence of that content, the improvements to systems, the visuals, dragonriding, and in general the positive philosophy shift.

    It is definitively not shining lore-wise. But is has improved (was not difficult at all, to be honest). I found side quests more enjoyable than usual, more interesting, but the main story of 10.0 is just not there, there is no story at all.We are questing just to eventually have the chance of seeing a cool cinematic, which is practically the only moments when shit happens, besides the lore books here and there, which are interesting clues for the future, but do not enrich in any way the story that DF is trying to tell.

    As always, we do not get the chance to see our favorite characters a lot. It is a pity, because every time I see Emberthal, Wrathion, Sabellian, Khadgar, etc. I just love It. They should have way more cinematics, of just people talking, no need to have a spectacular combat in them, we just want them to say something meaningful and to know them more.

    For the moment, the Incarnates are saving the day regarding lore. They are simple, they are cool, they do not seem fucking idiots. It is that easy, I do not expect an amazing story or narrative, but I expect something, and we should expect cool and interesting characters, I just wish that they do more things with them.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


  10. #4670
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    What is lacking is not a concept or a theme, it's history and it absolutely could have been done in the Dragon Isles.
    Well, I always knew I was never alone in my own rewrite of lore.

    Like a few others, you can do the same?

  11. #4671
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Because 99% of them ARE soulless crap.

    But 1% of them just make it through somehow, especially if they're manually adjusted on top.

    A prominent photography competition just has the winner reject the prize because they entered an AI image and it won 1st place. And these are professionals in the field.
    Which is why i have little fear of AI taking over quality art and writing. You still need a professional to check it and touch it up afterwards. Their specific job changes, but it won't disappear.

  12. #4672
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which is why i have little fear of AI taking over quality art and writing. You still need a professional to check it and touch it up afterwards. Their specific job changes, but it won't disappear.
    You don't need a professional to get most people to believe it's real.

  13. #4673
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which is why i have little fear of AI taking over quality art and writing. You still need a professional to check it and touch it up afterwards. Their specific job changes, but it won't disappear.
    Yup, what AI will do is what all previous technologies did. It will increase the output and subtly change the focus of the professionals involved. Yes, the cost of images is likely going to decrease but as it decreases it will open entirely new markets for custom visual art so we will have lower time per image, lower cost per image and hopefully significantly higher volume produced.

  14. #4674
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yup, what AI will do is what all previous technologies did. It will increase the output and subtly change the focus of the professionals involved. Yes, the cost of images is likely going to decrease but as it decreases it will open entirely new markets for custom visual art so we will have lower time per image, lower cost per image and hopefully significantly higher volume produced.
    I agree that the risk of creative destruction is overstated in this particular connection. However, I do understand the anxieties of artists about it; it's true that bad programs can plunder art and create nigh-identical copies in the process. I figure that the product itself has a bright future, but I'm certainly of the mind that more has to be done to ensure that as many samples are taken as possible to avoid de-facto copyright infringement.

    Furthermore, my analysis of the likelihood of creative destruction is only under the assumption that executives and the like are smart enough to realize they still need to continue employing artists instead of just cranking out shitty AI-generated art on their private programs.

  15. #4675
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I agree that the risk of creative destruction is overstated in this particular connection. However, I do understand the anxieties of artists about it; it's true that bad programs can plunder art and create nigh-identical copies in the process. I figure that the product itself has a bright future, but I'm certainly of the mind that more has to be done to ensure that as many samples are taken as possible to avoid de-facto copyright infringement.

    Furthermore, my analysis of the likelihood of creative destruction is only under the assumption that executives and the like are smart enough to realize they still need to continue employing artists instead of just cranking out shitty AI-generated art on their private programs.
    Oh the late stage capitalist hellscape where creativity has been subsumed by simulacra is always right around the corner. I mean it's already here in some music genres.

  16. #4676
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    It didn't work for me, because he was gone almost instaly after being introduced. He literally lasted for one patch span. I wanted more of him, and you saying that Talanji election eventually lead nowhere is even bigger proof that this change was for nothing.
    I'd rather if Fleet was destroyed but Jaina died. Jaina dying there would be better story for me.
    It also didnt really work for me and like I said.. rolling a zandalari was not so cool anymore for me.. altho Its still piece of lore that interest me, but I never liked how it was so obvious he had to go. The outcome of the raid was terrible, heroic move of Rastakahn, but damn I hated this so much. Next to Azshara he was my most anticipated character since vanilla. I had several discussions with people that were fair and pretty much all agreed on hes charisma, but I have mixed feelings about the whole incompetance thing, I always saw it as slacking/flawed. You can argue its a form of incompetance, but ruling an empire for that long is hardly luck. We dont know if Rezan was always there those years, but even he said the king needs a wake up call.

    I am just mixed on this.

    Talanji will never be as cool, literally impossible imo, I think we have to give it a rest. I have no hope in seeing him return. Not in the way I would like atleast. Zul, Rezan, Rastakahn were all very well done characters, we are left with the leftover called Talanji. I agree on Jaina, she should have died there. Her arrogance was over the top and her escape was plotarmor.

    We luckily still have Vol'jin with the spirit of Rezan in the future, but ye its not the same.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2023-04-26 at 02:17 PM.

  17. #4677
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yup, what AI will do is what all previous technologies did. It will increase the output and subtly change the focus of the professionals involved. Yes, the cost of images is likely going to decrease but as it decreases it will open entirely new markets for custom visual art so we will have lower time per image, lower cost per image and hopefully significantly higher volume produced.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which is why i have little fear of AI taking over quality art and writing. You still need a professional to check it and touch it up afterwards. Their specific job changes, but it won't disappear.
    "Quality" art and writing is an extremely small subset of the general body of commercial art. AI is more than sufficient at low and medium end stuff, which is what the bulk of art and writing is. Also consider that factory jobs also "still need 'a professional' to check" their automated assembly line output, but that having someone run quality checking doesn't change that the entire rest of that assembly line is replaced human labor. Needing supervision hasn't stopped automation from taking over many industrial or even agricultural fields.

    This is a pretty naïve understanding of the historical context of automation. Those aren't changed jobs, they're jobs that don't exist anymore. You don't need what was a 1000 man team to switch over to 1000 people checking what a computer puts out. You need 50 people keeping an eye on it. You also don't need people who can actually do art, just like you don't need people who can weld a car frame or people who can spin thread, weave or tailor. You just need someone who can look at a thing and go "that's wrong" and delete that one and hit the button to produce 10 more.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2023-04-26 at 02:15 PM.

  18. #4678
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh the late stage capitalist hellscape where creativity has been subsumed by simulacra is always right around the corner. I mean it's already here in some music genres.
    That's hardly anything to cheer about.

  19. #4679
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Oh the late stage capitalist hellscape where creativity has been subsumed by simulacra is always right around the corner. I mean it's already here in some music genres.
    It's for this sort of reason I'm ultimately split on it: on one hand, it's a very convenient technology, and I'm hardly ever one to object to technological progress in general. However, I can see it being employed maliciously or apathetically. Ideally, restrictions should start to emerge on it, but I definitely think people demonize it (and AI in general) too severely. I hope something is done to protect the rights of artists in sample-creation, but I can't help but roll my eyes when people treat it as the end of the artistic world, and any serious problems that emerge from it will definitely be as a consequence of malicious use or corporate idiocy rather than as a matter of art-generation AI being bad in itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    "Quality" art and writing is an extremely small subset of the general body of commercial art. AI is more than sufficient at low and medium end stuff, which is what the bulk of art and writing is. Also consider that factory jobs also "still need 'a professional' to check" their automated assembly line output, but that having someone run quality checking doesn't change that the entire rest of that assembly line is replaced human labor. Needing supervision hasn't stopped automation from taking over many industrial or even agricultural fields.

    This is a pretty naïve understanding of the historical context of automation. Those aren't changed jobs, they're jobs that don't exist anymore. You don't need what was a 1000 man team to switch over to 1000 people checking what a computer puts out. You need 50 people keeping an eye on it. You also don't need people who can actually do art, just like you don't need people who can weld a car frame or people who can spin thread, weave or tailor. You just need someone who can look at a thing and go "that's wrong" and delete that one and hit the button to produce 10 more.
    This much is perfectly true, but you do seem to be slightly leaning too far into the risk; as I said earlier, creative destruction may still emerge, though as I also said, I highly doubt it will be as bad as people think it will be. I do figure the technology may start to push some artists out of jobs, but it's also unequivocally untrue that it will destroy the art community and eradicate all potential employment prospects for artists. Realistically, I figure that with the proper regulations it will become a substitute good for real art (as opposed to outright replacing it in a storm of creative destruction). The actual product between AI-generated and real art will always be different, and there's simply certain elements in art that a robot can't replace. While you can have a machine do what a couple people did in manufacturing, you simply can't replace certain inherent qualities in human art, especially since AI-generated art is contingent on real art samples to remain sensible and effective. There exists no will or consciousness in a machine, which is absolutely necessary in a number of contexts.

    I figure that it will ultimately depend on the specificity required in particular images, or on the value people place on vision. You're definitely right that quality alone isn't that highly-valued except for particular niches of the market, and private commissions seem especially vulnerable (as per someone I consulted who is close to that side of things), so art reliant on specificity or vision is probably the safest. Corporate art is also likely to see some depreciation in value for smaller businesses, though I could imagine corporations that are suckers for specificity still requiring human art.

    For all of my inconsequential rambling, though, I think the most important thing to note is that it is here, and nothing good will come out of trying to prevent progress. The only thing I feel certain about in connection to this extremely muddy topic is that any discussion on it will absolutely have to be on how to minimize the creative destruction and the harm that could emanate from it, because any effort to impede progress will be in vain. Ideally, the best way to reconcile AI art and real art in my mind is to limit copyright protection of AI-generated art for the sake of adding an extra incentive to pursue real art for serious projects while using AI-generated art in passing and for personal projects, which is what I think they should be used for.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-04-26 at 03:08 PM.

  20. #4680
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the concept of the Dragon Isles. Nothing wrong with the Tuskar there either. There are issues with the Maruuk but you could see them as an entirely new race that largely lived there and it would work. What is lacking is not a concept or a theme, it's history and it absolutely could have been done in the Dragon Isles.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. Mist left a big positive mark despite having bland three first raids and no mm+, etc. because of how the world looks and how rich a history it has. Its denizens have extensive lore and ties to races we've known, and we're discovering more and it makes sense. They've even managed to explain why the land was hidden and make it a compelling story.

    Dragon isles on the other hand tried the exact same scenario. The land was hidden at the exact same time but it's through unexplained means and unexplained motivations, which won't get resolved.

    Its still confusing as to which denizen came back recently on the isle and which have lived there for generations. The maruk and gnolls should be the ones who've shaped this land for thousands of years but they barely have anything worthwhile to tell. They feel like the yaungol to me. They are there, friend or foe doesn't matter because the game doesn't want you to get interested in them.

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