1. #4681
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    This much is perfectly true, but you do seem to be slightly leaning too far into the risk; as I said earlier, creative destruction may still emerge, though as I also said, I highly doubt it will be as bad as people think it will be. I do figure the technology may start to push some artists out of jobs, but it's also unequivocally untrue that it will destroy the art community and eradicate all potential employment prospects for artists. Realistically, I figure that with the proper regulations it will become a substitute good for real art (as opposed to outright replacing it in a storm of creative destruction).
    I didn't say it would eradicate all potential employment prospects. It will just remove a large majority of them.

    This isn't really a guessing game or angling for speculative predictions. There are a wide variety of industries that involved similar levels of artistic skill and technique that were overtaken by automation. There are still cobblers who hand-make bespoke shoes. There are still weavers who hand dye and loom-weave carpets. There are still portrait painters who do studio portrait paintings. All of those are industries who didn't have their potential employment entirely eradicated. They are industries where there is a notable quality difference between hand and machine-made products (significantly more so than AI art and regular human art). They are also industries that aren't really "industries" anymore, instead they're just artisanal specialty good fields. They're an extremely niche luxury field that has to overcharge in the extreme because demand and volume is so low.

    Digital art has the benefit of low cost. It's also high time investment which means that fewer and fewer people will be incentivized to pursue it even as a hobby when they can take the easy route of just prompting art instead.

    There are always going to be hobbyists, and there is always going to be niche high end art demand. But that doesn't mean that a huge (majority even) chunk of commercial art isn't going to be shifted to automation. Consider that for every key art piece you see from a Blizzard art team lead, how many random generic "cool" art pieces there are on dumb banner ads for Chinese MMO games you're not sure are real, how many icons and standard anime girls you've seen in third rate gacha games and facebook games that you've never heard of before. Consider every music album with surrealist art. Every clipart picture you see on some billboard ad. Every nonsense poster on a wall in a video game.

    People were making those. They probably won't be five years from now.



    The actual product between AI-generated and real art will always be different, and there's simply certain elements in art that a robot can't replace. While you can have a machine do what a couple people did in manufacturing, you simply can't replace certain inherent qualities in human art, especially since AI-generated art is contingent on real art samples to remain sensible and effective. There exists no will or consciousness in a machine, which is absolutely necessary for certain kinds of art.
    I don't really agree with any of this part. It's just sort of romanticism. There are things that AI struggles with, largely the conceptual division of object borders (this is why it struggles with hair, hands and skin/clothing), and extremely minute, conceptually difficult to parse prompts, or narratives.

    But there's no super secret "soul" or "human touch" inherent to human made artwork. Not one that AI can't also output. Yes, AI art is contingent on real art samples to produce, but that is a flaw that produces stagnation, not a meaningful barrier to its intrusion into the commercial art industry. All artists could stop making original art today and there'd still be billions of images to source from, it's just that if you then skipped forward to 2083, the art would still look pretty similar, instead of the jump from 1960s art to 2020s. And even that isn't necessarily true, since algorithmic garbage and still produce novel output. Art would just move in an "AI looking" direction, instead of whatever random cultural zeitgeist motivated direction it would have naturally moved in.

    -

    tl;dr Blizzard isn't going to move to AI anytime soon, but you should expect to see AI-produced art in most AA or B/C/D list stuff in the next decade. Because it's extremely cheap and people like cheap things. The field will narrow in the extreme.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2023-04-26 at 03:15 PM.

  2. #4682
    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Its still confusing as to which denizen came back recently on the isle and which have lived there for generations. The maruk and gnolls should be the ones who've shaped this land for thousands of years but they barely have anything worthwhile to tell. They feel like the yaungol to me. They are there, friend or foe doesn't matter because the game doesn't want you to get interested in them.
    And the yaungol being a mess made sense. They were literally bred for war by the Mogu and then they had to content with the Mantid constantly beyond the wall instead of having large breaks of peace between outbreaks of war like the Pandaren and Jinyu.

  3. #4683
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I didn't say it would eradicate all potential employment prospects. It will just remove a large majority of them.

    This isn't really a guessing game or angling for speculative predictions. There are a wide variety of industries that involved similar levels of artistic skill and technique that were overtaken by automation. There are still cobblers who hand-make bespoke shoes. There are still weavers who hand dye and loom-weave carpets. There are still portrait painters who do studio portrait paintings. All of those are industries who didn't have their potential employment entirely eradicated. They are industries where there is a notable quality difference between hand and machine-made products (significantly more so than AI art and regular human art). They are also industries that aren't really "industries" anymore, instead they're just artisanal specialty good fields. They're an extremely niche luxury field that has to overcharge in the extreme because demand and volume is so low.
    I figure a good bit of this is fair, and this is sort of the trajectory I expect the path of creative destruction to take; I could see the reduction of jobs in corporate art being fairly severe, and I suppose you are right about the risk it poses in that capacity. I think I wrongly perceived some of the typical internet doomsaying—which can be very extreme and unrealistic—in your original post, so I'll retract that prior point.

    Still, I think that you're still somewhat overstating the degree to which real art will be outmoded. There is a great deal of difference between art and cobbling, and the latter is easier to heavily automate to the point of being reduced to a niche artisanal field than the former. Also, as I made several edits to my post while you were still typing, I should point back to it to add a few regulations that could do well in keeping real art competitive while not infringing on the inevitability of progress; the most effective, I figure, would be to limit copyright protection for AI-generated art, thus meaning that corporations would be especially incentivized to hire real artists while maintaining the bulk of utility for the common consumer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I don't really agree with any of this part. It's just sort of romanticism. There are things that AI struggles with, largely the conceptual division of object borders (this is why it struggles with hair, hands and skin/clothing), and extremely minute, conceptually difficult to parse prompts, or narratives.
    I'm speaking here more about effective realization of a particular concept; the last of those points—the bit on difficult prompts and more difficult concepts—is precisely what I was talking about. AI art can only produce simulacra of real art through datasets of preexisting art, and can apply nothing of its own because it creates nothing of its own. This will leave a more significantly-sized niche than I think you realize for real art, though I still do agree that it will likely depreciate a large number of jobs in mass-produced corporate art.

    Either way, I definitely mean nothing romantic by this. I only mean to say that there is a degree of consciousness required to produce certain things; this will help to stifle the depreciation of jobs in art, even in spite of the breadth of creative destruction which may emerge in connection to mass-produced art. It may have wide-ranging effects, but I don't think it will go as far as making real art analogous to handmade cobbling.

    Ultimately, though, I'm inclined to just repeat my retroactively-added closer in the first post: there is nothing that can be done now that it does satisfy a demand in the market, so all discussion with any realistic stakes ought to be limited chiefly to how we can minimize the harm that will come of it and keep real and AI-generated art competitive. The best I can think of in that connection is to limit copyright protection of AI art, because that would reduce the incentive for businesses to move towards AI-generated art.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-04-26 at 04:17 PM.

  4. #4684
    Question to the PTR testers: when 10.1 hits, can you still convert gear from 10.0 content (particularly Primalist gear) into Vault Tier? Still missing some classes...
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  5. #4685
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    Question to the PTR testers: when 10.1 hits, can you still convert gear from 10.0 content (particularly Primalist gear) into Vault Tier? Still missing some classes...
    Nope. The catalyst is deactivated once the patch hits. There is a slight chance you can convert it once they reactivate the catalyst for 10.1 but i would not get my hopes up.

    Edit: Nevermind. They activated in some ptr build. You can't use season 1 gear on the season 2 catalyst. Even the primalist gear doesn't work.
    Last edited by Foolicious; 2023-04-26 at 04:10 PM.

  6. #4686
    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    Nope. The catalyst is deactivated once the patch hits. There is a slight chance you can convert it once they reactivate the catalyst for 10.1 but i would not get my hopes up.
    Are you sure? I remember getting a quest that removed the charges entirely. I guess I'll go check and post back

    Damn it converted to S2! 8 charges max of Renascent Shadowflame
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-04-26 at 04:15 PM.

  7. #4687
    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    Nope. The catalyst is deactivated once the patch hits. There is a slight chance you can convert it once they reactivate the catalyst for 10.1 but i would not get my hopes up.
    Didn't Blizzard say something about the catalyst gear conversion process at some point? I hope it wasn't just something i imagined.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  8. #4688
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    And WoW Dragonflight ? ^^
    There's been quite the trend towards increased detail in leaks lately, hasn't there? We've come a long way from short text dumps like WoD to get to the point we're at now.

  9. #4689
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    There's been quite the trend towards increased detail in leaks lately, hasn't there? We've come a long way from short text dumps like WoD to get to the point we're at now.
    I prefer those days, honestly. Much more fun. Now, everyone just waits for the press leak and we're done with it. We wait for "the one."

  10. #4690
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    There's been quite the trend towards increased detail in leaks lately, hasn't there? We've come a long way from short text dumps like WoD to get to the point we're at now.
    Didn't we pretty much just get the logo for DF? Along with a lot of confusion what it was about.

  11. #4691
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I prefer those days, honestly. Much more fun. Now, everyone just waits for the press leak and we're done with it. We wait for "the one."
    Fair enough; certainly less room for speculation now, when there's such transparency about which is going to come true due to the excess detail and credibility of the leaks which wind up verified.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Didn't we pretty much just get the logo for DF? Along with a lot of confusion what it was about.
    We also got the Dracthyr, a cinematic still, and the key art of Alexstrasza.

  12. #4692
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post

    We also got the Dracthyr, a cinematic still, and the key art of Alexstrasza.
    Yeah we progressively got more and more of the press kit leaked.

  13. #4693
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    It also didnt really work for me and like I said.. rolling a zandalari was not so cool anymore for me.. altho Its still piece of lore that interest me, but I never liked how it was so obvious he had to go. The outcome of the raid was terrible, heroic move of Rastakahn, but damn I hated this so much. Next to Azshara he was my most anticipated character since vanilla. I had several discussions with people that were fair and pretty much all agreed on hes charisma, but I have mixed feelings about the whole incompetance thing, I always saw it as slacking/flawed. You can argue its a form of incompetance, but ruling an empire for that long is hardly luck. We dont know if Rezan was always there those years, but even he said the king needs a wake up call.

    I am just mixed on this.

    Talanji will never be as cool, literally impossible imo, I think we have to give it a rest. I have no hope in seeing him return. Not in the way I would like atleast. Zul, Rezan, Rastakahn were all very well done characters, we are left with the leftover called Talanji. I agree on Jaina, she should have died there. Her arrogance was over the top and her escape was plotarmor.

    We luckily still have Vol'jin with the spirit of Rezan in the future, but ye its not the same.
    I so agree. And luckily Rastakhan had lots of fans among Alliance players that were greatly upset that they had to fight him, when the only people these players wanted to take down were Sylvanas and Nathanos. I even knew one girl who always specced to healer during the fight because she never wanted to hurt Rastakhan xD.

    Vol'Jin's death deeply upsetted me, to the point I didn't even bother with Legion. I wrote one big critique post typing down all the reasons why this idea is very bad on plenty of reasons and left.
    And then when Blizzard reintroduced Zandalari it made me return. I was previously kinda "meh" on him as I saw his name to be silly, but then he immediately won me over and I just loved him. He is the most Zandalari of all the zandas available. He was beaming confidence, good spirit, glory and charisma, but he was flawed as well.
    Death flags were annoying. He is the only NPC for which aging problem was invented, in same universe where Turalying was given +1000 years for a good morning back in the Legion.
    And Rastakhan death hit me even more. What a waste! As if trolls didn't have enough painful blows. First, Zul'Jin, then Vol'Jin and now Rastakhan. Devs just can't help themselves from eradicating each established troll heroes.
    And losing Rezan on top of that. I was hoping that Rezan would return like each Loa would, but then Shadowlands came.

    This is a nightmare!
    I also agree that Zul was a great character, and I saw his death as a waste. He could've shaken up some different narrative approach. But he was made to be blood slug worshipper, instead of remaining to be troll supremacist that is trying very hard to secure their place in the world, and does it the wrong way.

    Talanji is just ok. First thing that rubbed me wrong was how narrative immediately favoured her, then she was written to be teenager where she doesn't really look or arc like one. I see no reason why she couldn't be over 30'ies. That's still young, but reasonably old and mature enough. And last but not least, she would look really bad if she was seen outside of Zandalar if it isn't absolute dire necessity. If they wanted to prop her up, the better option would be to simply send her over the world as her father's emissary and do what Zul wanted to do but in more diplomatic/effective way. But Bliz and other modern writers think that "girl boss" is the peak character objective. >.>

    And I also agree that if Rastakhan was incompetent he would never last over 200 years on the throne. That is also one of my points.
    I miss Mists of Pandaria

  14. #4694
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    We also got the Dracthyr, a cinematic still, and the key art of Alexstrasza.
    Still, pretty light on detail. We got way more detailed leaks in the early days, but less graphic.

  15. #4695
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramz View Post
    It didn't work for me, because he was gone almost instaly after being introduced. He literally lasted for one patch span. I wanted more of him, and you saying that Talanji election eventually lead nowhere is even bigger proof that this change was for nothing.
    I'd rather if Fleet was destroyed but Jaina died. Jaina dying there would be better story for me.
    I'm saying that it was a good set up that didn't pan out. We could say that in hindsight it would have just been better if he had lived since Talanji hasn't done much either, yet the problem is that with how the expansion played out it would have been the same, Rhastakhan just falling out of focus as Talanji did.

    But the moment itself, the tragedy of a King cut short just as he was about to take the reins of his Empire back, leaving him only with his regrets, that worked.

    Jaina's death wouldn't have done anything in terms of Rastakhan tho so I don't get the comment there.

  16. #4696
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I prefer those days, honestly. Much more fun. Now, everyone just waits for the press leak and we're done with it. We wait for "the one."
    Because there's no point in dealing with a(n unexaggerated) hundred fakes that are just random plot points extrapolated from what is currently happening in the story. Especially now that we've reached the stage where a good chunk of the original slew of regions and enemies that "needed to be dealt with" have been, so we're looking at increasingly secondary places (Undermine, other side of Azeroth, minor secondary planets, revamp, etc.) instead of a handful of large likelihood things.

  17. #4697
    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    Nope. The catalyst is deactivated once the patch hits. There is a slight chance you can convert it once they reactivate the catalyst for 10.1 but i would not get my hopes up.

    Edit: Nevermind. They activated in some ptr build. You can't use season 1 gear on the season 2 catalyst. Even the primalist gear doesn't work.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We’re also working to make it possible for players to convert Season 1 items for transmog purposes. This functionality, however, will be disabled for a few weeks as the Catalyst will be unavailable for a time, starting when Season 1 ends. Our goal is that players who are trying to use Season 1-level gear to get their Season 1 transmog set will only need an appropriate piece to convert. The cost will be free and players would not need to accumulate any kind of charges.
    Well, there you have it.

  18. #4698
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We’re also working to make it possible for players to convert Season 1 items for transmog purposes. This functionality, however, will be disabled for a few weeks as the Catalyst will be unavailable for a time, starting when Season 1 ends. Our goal is that players who are trying to use Season 1-level gear to get their Season 1 transmog set will only need an appropriate piece to convert. The cost will be free and players would not need to accumulate any kind of charges.
    Well, there you have it.
    That's good. The creation catalyst is easily one of the best solutions we have gotten for the issue of incomplete trabsmog sets. Would be a real shame if it's only active for the relevant season.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  19. #4699
    Good Creation Catalyst changes. As a set collector this is a very welcomed change for me.

    I am also satisfied with Ion's interviews, he seems very happy with the team and WoW's situation, but no one had the balls to ask about the developers situation, or maybe Blizzard just did not allow them to ask that question.

    Ion pretty much confirmed more classes for Dracthyr in 11.0, which is not surprising but still good to know. He even left the door open for Evoker being available to other races in the future, which I think that it is inevitable, just curious about the implementation.

    Also cheers for the focus on account wide stuff, its about time. Hopefully they turn every past reputation and every achievement account wide (blue) rather than character independent. Most currencies should be account wide too, and they should not occupy a space in out inventory. Although there are so many of them that they could definitively clean them up a little bit.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


  20. #4700
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, there you have it.
    Ah great, thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The creation catalyst is easily one of the best solutions we have gotten for the issue of incomplete trabsmog sets. Would be a real shame if it's only active for the relevant season.
    I've always wished for e.g. Heroic items to also unlock e.g. Normal and LFR appearances.

    An alternative way, thinking back at Trial of Valor, would be to give endbosses a chance to drop Ensembles of their sets.
    While Tier gear is class-bound, Ensembles unlock all lookalikes as well, so using the Druid one would unlock eligible lookalikes for the other Leather users.
    Again, Heroic would drop the Heroic Ensemble, but also the Normal and LFR ones. I think ToV would drop the one for the current difficulty first, then the lower ones in later attempts.

    This could also include an Arsenal for weapon appearances, and if deemed too easy for current content, only enabled for past expansions.
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

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