1. #6001
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, some casual gamers play as Draenei themselves, so they don't view the Draenei or their tech as alien. Again, you're talking about a race that's been playable in WoW for almost 20 years.
    So casuals have varying levels of observational clarity depending on what serves your current claim best?

  2. #6002
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I see tbc overall as big a mistake as that silly cosmic chart.
    But to be fair alot of the original lore was just wrong to me.
    Don’t get me wrong BC lore was all over the place… but I would love an expansion sort of like that again where the cosmic conflict is something happening in the background.

    If we get a soft “void” expansion like the Shadowguard/Void Ethereals invading, we could get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If they do Exile's Reach. I'm willing to bet that the majority of casuals have been playing WoW before Shadowlands, so they played the Draenei starting zone.
    If you skip the intro & don’t read quest text like most casual gamers you’re probably going to miss that the Exodar is a space ship.

    Besides your logic makes no sense. Casual gamers won’t know the difference between death and void (where both have been around longer than the Draenei), but they’d instantly know that flying mech suits & working space ships aren’t alien?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So casuals have varying levels of observational clarity depending on what serves your current claim best?
    So you honestly think someone (casual or not) playing WoW for 5-10 years is going to view a race that’s been available for play that entire span of time as “alien”?

  4. #6004
    Titans should have remained a mystery for far longer than it did.
    Legion expac wouldn't have been created as "soon." The ground game should have kept running. "Legion" and "the Burning Crusade" might be combined. The Draenei and Ethereals, with their advanced tech and abilities (looking into psychic abilities of a sort) would play well to balance out the destructive power of the Legion.

  5. #6005
    Quote Originally Posted by Scyth View Post
    As cliche as it might be I'd actually love to have light-themed villains so wouldn't be against Yrel or whoever else being the main villains of the next xpac.
    I'd love for it if only for the aesthetics of the gear and enemies. It'd be nice to fight something not elemental, undead, or crude iron.

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    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you honestly think someone (casual or not) playing WoW for 5-10 years is going to view a race that’s been available for this play that entire span of time as “alien”?
    Given that the Draenei literally are aliens with alien technology, yes.
    But this is getting derailed.

    There’s little to no chance Blizzard brings back Yrel, despite the speculation. If Murozond was an actual final boss then maybe I could see him pulling a sneaky, but it’s clear that he is being dealt with.

    At most I’d see a "LiGhT BaD" thing happening after a void expansion. Or they continue the “the light and void are horrors in each others eyes” plot from the Legion audiobook and we choose a side.
    For villains for the The “zealous light” would probably just be something like the reformed Scarlet Crusade. The void would be the Void Ethereals/Shadowguard.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 01:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    If you skip the intro & don’t read quest text like most casual gamers you’re probably going to miss that the Exodar is a space ship.
    Even if you skip the text, there’s Draenei tech all over the place and throughout the leveling experience. The point is that Draenei tech isn’t going to be viewed as alien to WoW players. They’ve been playable for too long for that to happen.

    Besides your logic makes no sense. Casual gamers won’t know the difference between death and void (where both have been around longer than the Draenei), but they’d instantly know that flying mech suits & working space ships aren’t alien?
    You really think it’s illogical that someone will just lump shadow stuff together and not see a nuance between the two? You really believe it’s illogical that a casual player wouldn’t view Draenei as alien, but view a floating energy mummy that uses energy weapons as alien/cosmic? C’mon now.

    Also, mechs and flying suits have been around since WC3, and Draenei aren’t the only race that uses them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    There’s little to no chance Blizzard brings back Yrel, despite the speculation. If Murozond was an actual final boss then maybe I could see him pulling a sneaky, but it’s clear that he is being dealt with.
    Little to no chance that a well known light-aligned villain can come back in an expansion where rumors of light and dark are possible themes?

    Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Even if you skip the text, there’s Draenei tech all over the place and throughout the leveling experience. The point is that Draenei tech isn’t going to be viewed as alien to WoW players. They’ve been playable for too long for that to happen.
    Wasn’t one of the big complaints about Legion (especially Argus) was that it was too “Sci-fi” with all the alien mech suits & space ships?

    You really think it’s illogical that someone will just lump shadow stuff together and not see a nuance between the two?
    Yes. Because visually they’re completely different. Don’t need to read any lore to tell the difference between purple tentacle void & black chains and skulls.

    You really believe it’s illogical that a casual player wouldn’t view Draenei as alien, but view a floating energy mummy that uses energy weapons as alien/cosmic? C’mon now.
    It’s illogical to think that a casual player wouldn’t think the Draenei space ships & mechs are alien, when according to you a casual player can’t tell two very visually distinct kinds of magic/forces apart.

    And no, an Ethereal doesn’t look alien in the slightest. They look more like ghosts or mummies that would probably fit visually in places like Uldum. Like this.


    Also, mechs and flying suits have been around since WC3, and Draenei aren’t the only race that uses them.
    All of those were mechanical and steampunk. Unlike the sci-fi esque energy-based mechs & weapons.

    Little to no chance that a well known light-aligned villain can come back in an expansion where rumors of light and dark are possible themes?

    Seriously?
    Yes.
    Yrel being a villain isn’t that well known outside of the forums and speculation. Given that she only shows up in a very quick and short scenario to unlock an allied race that a very small fraction of the players play.

    What makes more sense. A villain that pops up for at most 30 minutes of gameplay (that most don’t experience) to never be heard of again… or well known villains from classic, such as the Scarlet Crusade?

    Besides, Yrel has no way to get to Azeroth. She doesn’t have the Hourglass to reopen the way to our timeline.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 01:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
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    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Even if you skip the text, there’s Draenei tech all over the place and throughout the leveling experience. The point is that Draenei tech isn’t going to be viewed as alien to WoW players. They’ve been playable for too long for that to happen.
    As some one who has been playing since TBC Draenei tech is incredibly alien to the rest of wow.

    Hard light constructs, space ships, beaming people down, orbital lasers, advance combat mechs, ect.

    In TBC they got a bit more leeway due to every thing being a wreck and them not having alot of functioning tech but from Wod-legion they totally feel like an advance alien race not a fantasy one like the rest of wows races.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  10. #6010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Wasn’t one of the big complaints about Legion (especially Argus) was that it was too “Sci-fi” with all the alien mech suits & space ships?
    Yeah, seven years ago on Argus. A Yrel invasion would take place on Azeroth, and since AU Draenor will be dead or destroyed, we’ll be on Azeroth the entire expansion. Probably on Avaloren.

    Yes. Because visually they’re completely different. Don’t need to read any lore to tell the difference between purple tentacle void & black chains and skulls.
    We fought Faceless Ones in Northrend during WotLK. They didn’t stand out at all from the undead thematics. Why? Because it’s all shadow magic.


    It’s illogical to think that a casual player wouldn’t think the Draenei space ships & mechs are alien, when according to you a casual player can’t tell two very visually distinct kinds of magic/forces apart.
    Nearly 20 years of playing a race will do that to people.

    And no, an Ethereal doesn’t look alien in the slightest. They look more like ghosts or mummies that would probably fit visually in places like Uldum. Like this.
    That’s simply your bias showing. Again, you’re talking about a race who looks nothing like other WoW races. It’s nonsense to say a floating energy creature that uses energy weapons doesn’t look alien in a game with Orcs and Elves.



    Yes.
    Yrel being a villain isn’t that well known outside of the forums and speculation. Given that she only shows up in a very quick and short scenario to unlock an allied race that a very small fraction of the players play.
    Uh Yrel appears throughout Blizzard media. She also appeared in Hearthstone, and Heroes of the Storm.

    What makes more sense. A villain that pops up for at most 30 minutes of gameplay (that most don’t experience) to never be heard of again… or well known villains from classic, such as the Scarlet Crusade?
    Uh Yrel. She’s WAY more popular than a bunch of Scarlet Crusaders. It’s not even close.

    Besides, Yrel has no way to get to Azeroth. She doesn’t have the Hourglass to reopen the way to our timeline.
    Yeah, because Blizzard couldn’t take care of that “problem” with a single sentence of lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    As some one who has been playing since TBC Draenei tech is incredibly alien to the rest of wow.

    Hard light constructs, space ships, beaming people down, orbital lasers, advance combat mechs, ect.

    In TBC they got a bit more leeway due to every thing being a wreck and them not having alot of functioning tech but from Wod-legion they totally feel like an advance alien race not a fantasy one like the rest of wows races.
    And I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that due to familiarity with the race, its not as "alien" as these guys;



    They don't even have faces.

  11. #6011
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, seven years ago on Argus. A Yrel invasion would take place on Azeroth, and since AU Draenor will be dead or destroyed, we’ll be on Azeroth the entire expansion. Probably on Avaloren.
    Location doesn’t matter if you’re still fighting space ships and energy mechs.


    We fought Faceless Ones in Northrend during WotLK. They didn’t stand out at all from the undead thematics. Why? Because it’s all shadow magic.
    It worth mentioning that Yogg’saron and the Lich King were supposed to be connected more than what we got and blizzard confirmed that in an interview back then.
    Which is why Bolvar getting tortured was shown to us in Yogg’saron’s brain alongside all of the other Old God schemes. And it’s why Yogg’saron’s theme played when Bolvar was crowned.

    However… the themes of death/void and lore have all evolved since then. Anything post cataclysm makes it pretty clear the two are completely separate.

    Nearly 20 years of playing a race will do that to people.

    That’s simply your bias showing. Again, you’re talking about a race who looks nothing like other WoW races. It’s nonsense to say a floating energy creature that uses energy weapons doesn’t look alien in a game with Orcs and Elves.
    The Draenei look nothing like other WoW races that use energy weapons.

    Besides, you’re using your knowledge of Ethereals that your definition of a "casual gamer" won’t know.

    Looks more like a mummy to me than an alien.

    Uh Yrel appears throughout Blizzard media. She also appeared in Hearthstone, and Heroes of the Storm.
    So have Ethereals? They’ve also been in almost every other xpac in some way too. They’re in almost every city in the game, they show up all over the Void Elf quests & in their starting zone… they show up a lot and have been hinted to be villains in the future.

    Rafaam is a popular recurring villain in Hearthstone too, and he had a model datamined in Dragonflight, but has yet to appear. Almost as if they’re going to be saving him for something big.

    Uh Yrel. She’s WAY more popular than a bunch of Scarlet Crusaders. It’s not even close.
    Lmao
    If anything she’d be “popular” because of how much of a failure WoD was.

    The only reason she was only mentioned after WoD was to give an excuse for the Mag’har to be added. Nothing more.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 02:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  12. #6012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that due to familiarity with the race, its not as "alien" as these guys;

    https://blizzardwatch.com/wp-content..._Saraad_HS.jpg

    They don't even have faces.
    Sure Ethereal’s are “Alien” but not in the same way the goats are. With no context They look like ghost or Phantoms and most of there tech screams magic while goat tech is far more advance looking.

    Like if you had an ethereal just hanging out in one of the classic ghost zones they wouldn’t be out of place and even there tech could be mistaken for things like magic ghost catchers, put a light forged and a battle mech any where and it’s going to stand out instantly.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #6013
    I think Arrakoa and Ethereals would be a great set of races to come with Yrel, as they have the dueling Light/Void theme and can be androgynous races like Dracthyr.

  14. #6014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think Arrakoa and Ethereals would be a great set of races to come with Yrel, as they have the dueling Light/Void theme and can be androgynous races like Dracthyr.
    The Arrakoa were losing there light theme fast in Wod weren’t they? Half turning into the broken birds from TBC and the other half joining up with the legion to not lose there wings as well.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  15. #6015
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The Arrakoa were losing there light theme fast in Wod weren’t they? Half turning into the broken birds from TBC and the other half joining up with the legion to not lose there wings as well.
    I think if they were playable they would be the uncorrupted form, as their animations are less complicated due to being upright.

  16. #6016
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    Unless you specifically mention that Ethereals are from off-world, the average non-lore indulgant player would absolutely just assume they come from Uldum or Tanaris or come out of Silithus.
    Or are maybe related to mages and/or Dalaran in some way or another.

    Azeroth is already a very thematically diverse place, and Ethereals and their tech don't stand out as much as you think you do.

    Especially with them being literally everywhere because of transmog, and Hearthstone pushing Ethereal characters (looking at you Rafaam).


    Formerly known as Arafal

  17. #6017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezits View Post
    I think Arrakoa and Ethereals would be a great set of races to come with Yrel, as they have the dueling Light/Void theme and can be androgynous races like Dracthyr.
    Arrakoa and Ogres make more sense, since they are both races on Draenor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    It worth mentioning that Yogg’saron and the Lich King were supposed to be connected more than what we got and blizzard confirmed that in an interview back then.
    An old gods and faceless ones fitting right in thematically during an Undead/Death expansion is the point. Which is why a Void expansion will immediately be thought of as another expansion like Shadowlands.


    Lmao
    If anything she’d be “popular” because of how much of a failure WoD was.

    The only reason she was only mentioned after WoD was to give an excuse for the Mag’har to be added. Nothing more.
    She's popular because she's a female Draenei hero, which explains why she's appeared multiple times in different media since she was first introduced. Not just to pop up in BFA, but to be a Blizzard franchise character. Blizzard always wants to build off of their franchise characters.

    Prime example;



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Sure Ethereal’s are “Alien” but not in the same way the goats are. With no context They look like ghost or Phantoms and most of there tech screams magic while goat tech is far more advance looking.

    Like if you had an ethereal just hanging out in one of the classic ghost zones they wouldn’t be out of place and even there tech could be mistaken for things like magic ghost catchers, put a light forged and a battle mech any where and it’s going to stand out instantly.
    You can have that opinion, the problem is that they're not going to be brought into an expansion with a ghost theme. They're going to be brought in during a void expansion, with plenty of space/cosmic stuff going on.

  18. #6018
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An old gods and faceless ones fitting right in thematically during an Undead/Death expansion is the point. Which is why a Void expansion will immediately be thought of as another expansion like Shadowlands.
    Weird, nobody ever got “Undeath/death” vibes from N’zoth & his faceless ones… or the Void stuff in Legion… or Abberus… etc etc.


    You can have that opinion, the problem is that they're not going to be brought into an expansion with a ghost theme. They're going to be brought in during a void expansion, with plenty of space/cosmic stuff going on.
    Which is exactly what’ll happen when you bring the time traveling holy space goats?
    So I fail to see the point you’re trying to make here.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 02:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Unless you specifically mention that Ethereals are from off-world, the average non-lore indulgant player would absolutely just assume they come from Uldum or Tanaris or come out of Silithus.
    Or are maybe related to mages and/or Dalaran in some way or another.
    Again, if you introduce them during a void expansion, you sort of have to make it a point that they're off-world alien characters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Weird, nobody ever got “Undeath/death” vibes from N’zoth & his faceless ones… or the Void stuff in Legion… or Abberus… etc etc.
    Yeah, you can't make that assumption.

    Which is exactly what’ll happen when you bring the time traveling holy space goats?
    So I fail to see the point you’re trying to make here.
    Space Goats (and Orcs) that players have been playing as for almost 20 years now, led by a character we've known for almost a decade?

    It's astonishing that you can't see the difference here.

  20. #6020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, you can't make that assumption.
    I guarantee you can’t find anyone except you saying that the void we see in any of my examples (N’zoth, Legion, Abberus) is connected to death magic or the shadowlands.

    Space Goats that players have been playing as for almost 20 years now, led by a character we've known for almost a decade? It's astonishing that you can't see the difference here.
    You’re still not explaining how Ethereals mean space/cosmic stuff when time traveling intergalactic space goats don’t.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

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