1. #6041
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why is it a weak premise? Yrel's alignment and her history makes her a compelling villain. The Naaru and a combined Draenei, Orc, Arrakoa, Ogre, and Gromm army make her a formidable threat. Further we have multiple characters in the alliance who wouldn't view her invasion as necessarily a bad thing, and we have multiple characters in the horde and alliance who would be in abject fear of her arrival.

    We can spend the various patches/seasons figuring out what turned her evil, what happened to Draenor, dealing with a fracturing alliance, and using the secrets of Avaloren (if that's the new continent) to find a way to stop her. Along with playable Ogres and Arrakoa whose starting zones can be them escaping from Yrel's army to MU Azeroth.

    Sounds like a solid expansion to me.
    Yeah I don’t see that being an expansion that’d have technically 4 major patches (11.0-11.3) with 2 minor patches between each.
    It needs more variety, which is why it would inevitably delve into the cosmic stuff.

    At best the only way I’d see the light being a semi-main antagonist would be in a “Light vs Void” expansion where there’d probably be a patch where you’re fighting some rampant Naaru and/or a reformed Scarlet Crusade.

    Because the ship for Yrel coming to Azeroth has sailed.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 04:54 PM.
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  2. #6042
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Wow Varodoc & Teriz worked together to derail the main thread see you in 100 pages
    Ersula being the voice of reason was not on my list for this week.

  3. #6043
    Bloodsail Admiral Foreign Exchange Ztudent's Avatar
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    Both void and light are deadends for this franchise for the upcoming expansion.

    There's nothing salvageable from a marketing standpoint or narrative standpoint except for Light and it borderline feels kind of weird to frame the entire expansion around a woman who literally lost all her guidance and became a ruthless zealot due to the lack of voices of reasoning unless you just want to frame the LIGHT BAD which fair enough but that's more boring than the alternative of Yrels' zealotry.

    You're telling me that we're going to go murder a woman we're responsible for becoming the way that she became while celebrating that we got a main female villain? The logic here is palpable amounts of insanity.

    Unfortunately, the Avaloren and Pirate theory isn't exactly better either. So for my case I just think the most important focus is on the feature set and what value they can bring customers which is usually never a good standpoint for a product that the main fantasy and theme is completely worthless.
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2023-05-18 at 05:25 PM.
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  4. #6044
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Yeah I don’t see that being an expansion that’d have technically 4 major patches (11.0-11.3) with 2 minor patches between each.
    It needs more variety, which is why it would inevitably delve into the cosmic stuff.

    At best the only way I’d see the light being a semi-main antagonist would be in a “Light vs Void” expansion where there’d probably be a patch where you’re fighting some rampant Naaru and/or a reformed Scarlet Crusade.

    Because the ship for Yrel coming to Azeroth has sailed.
    That's the thing though, "The Light" or "The Void" wouldn't be an expansion antagonist. Those are universal forces. It's like saying "Fire" is coming to get us and not mentioning elemental characters like Ragnaros. The villains of Warcraft are not the various forces of magic, it's characters who use those forces to cause harm.

    With that said, I also don't see Blizzard pulling a new character out their butt like they did with the Jailer. They're clearly trying to utilize new minor villains with old major villains like Raszegath, Iridkron, and Morchie being buttressed against Neltharion, Galakrond, and Murozond.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2023-05-18 at 05:16 PM.

  5. #6045
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    With that said, I also don't see Blizzard pulling a new character out their butt like they did with the Jailer. They're clearly trying to utilize new minor villains with old major villains like Raszegath, Iridkron, and Morchie being buttressed against Neltharion, Galakrond, and Murozond.
    I mean, all of the incarnates were pulled out of nowhere just like the Jailer. None of them existed in lore prior to DF.
    They’re just more interesting villains and are actually expanded upon.

    Villains like Rafaam at least exist in other media and wouldn’t need some wild explanation as to how he’s on Azeroth… though he clearly wouldn’t be the final boss of any xpac.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-18 at 05:27 PM.
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  6. #6046
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I mean, all of the incarnates were pulled out of nowhere just like the Jailer. None of them existed in lore prior to DF.
    They’re just more interesting villains and are actually expanded upon.

    Villains like Rafaam at least exist in other media, though he clearly wouldn’t be the final boss of any xpac.
    TBF, they weren't really pulled from nowhere. The lore long stated that there were elemental-based proto-drakes, Blizzard just dove a bit more into that lore. That's part of the reason the Incarnates work as villains.

    The Jailer literally came out of nowhere, and was simply a massive asspull. Almost on Fast and Furious levels of just pulling crap out of thin air and using it for an antagonist.

    As for Rafaam, again I have never seen lore stating that he works for the void lords and has any motivations outside of stealing ancient artifacts.

  7. #6047
    Bloodsail Admiral Foreign Exchange Ztudent's Avatar
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    I can see Rafaam being a shock factor reveal for Retail at some point, but at the same time thats' about it because the introduction of Rafaam essentially turns World of Warcraft into a collection of Marvel movies where everything suddenly becomes focused on this ethereal.

    They could play with it, of course. I certainly think there's potential of utilizing Rafaam at some point when things are even more dry and unstable in the character gallery.

    Hell, Rafaam would've been excellent as a framing device for more out there cosmic storylines for the Warcraft Universe. But, again the narrative team just clearly does not have enough time, effort, staff, money to fit cosmic level narratives within the 2 year timeframes they are within.

    Now who knows, the Lore Codex in Overwatch could mean they finally relent and allow writers to input more into a WoW Lore Tab but until that is confirmed.

    I just feel the narrative team has a better way through utilization of Azeroth itself. Especially since they keep stumbling to ponder the World Soul Orb every Cosmic storyline and its' just a bit much, ain't it?
    Last edited by Foreign Exchange Ztudent; 2023-05-18 at 05:40 PM.
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  8. #6048
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    As for Rafaam, again I have never seen lore stating that he works for the void lords and has any motivations outside of stealing ancient artifacts.
    I mean he wouldn’t be an exact 1-1 copy of his Hearthstone self like most of the people ported over.
    In Hearthstone his whole motivation is taking over the world like a James Bond villain, which is why he steals Dalaran and resurrects Galakrond (which likely won’t happen)

    That motivation could be shifted around, who knows. Maybe he’d think using/temporarily helping the void could be mutually beneficial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  9. #6049
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreign Exchange Ztudent View Post
    Both void and light are deadends for this franchise for the upcoming expansion.

    There's nothing salvageable from a marketing standpoint or narrative standpoint except for Light and it borderline feels kind of weird to frame the entire expansion around a woman who literally lost all her guidance and became a ruthless zealot due to the lack of voices of reasoning unless you just want to frame the LIGHT BAD which fair enough but that's more boring than the alternative of Yrels' zealotry.

    You're telling me that we're going to go murder a woman we're responsible for becoming the way that she became while celebrating that we got a main female villain? The logic here is palpable amounts of insanity.

    Unfortunately, the Avaloren and Pirate theory isn't exactly better either. So for my case I just think the most important focus is on the feature set and what value they can bring customers which is usually never a good standpoint for a product that the main fantasy and theme is completely worthless.
    Curious what puts you off the idea of the pirate fleet as a potential major antagonist? I know Pirates in WoW tend to be painted as more comic relief villains, but this is the chance to present us with something new.

    A ruthless Pirate Lord who unites every pirate crew and rogue organisation into a titanic force that dwarves the Horde and Alliance in numbers could honestly be a refreshing change of pace for a villain. Have Nightsquall seek out ancient magic and artifacts on Tel'Abim or Avaloren that would ''buff'' his power level so to speak, backed up by his endless fleet and you have a pretty strong villain.

    Portray him similar to how Euron Greyjoy is in the A Song of Ice and Fire books (not show). A ruthless, sadistic madman who travels the world in a quest for more power, learning different arts of sorcery, with the potential to control deep sea terrors.

    I'd love an expansion with this as the primary villainous driving force.

  10. #6050
    Quote Originally Posted by Marlamin View Post
    Ersula being the voice of reason was not on my list for this week.
    I laughed way too much at this

  11. #6051
    The Lightbringer Izalla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Wow Varodoc & Teriz worked together to derail the main thread see you in 100 pages
    I straight up noped out of reading this thread most of today when I saw what was going on, again.
    give up dat booty
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  12. #6052
    Quote Originally Posted by Izalla View Post
    I straight up noped out of reading this thread most of today when I saw what was going on, again.
    Same, and at this point I am just tired of constantly fighting to not have the thread turn into lore sub-thread...

  13. #6053
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I mean he wouldn’t be an exact 1-1 copy of his Hearthstone self like most of the people ported over.
    In Hearthstone his whole motivation is taking over the world like a James Bond villain, which is why he steals Dalaran and resurrects Galakrond (which likely won’t happen)

    That motivation could be shifted around, who knows. Maybe he’d think using/temporarily helping the void could be mutually beneficial.
    Yeah, I don’t buy the notion of Rafaam being a major villain for a void expansion. I could see him be a semi-major villain in a Titan expansion where a Titan artifact is posing a major threat to Azeroth, and the heroes and the Explorer’s league has to stop him.

    However, that sounds more like a patch storyline.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Curious what puts you off the idea of the pirate fleet as a potential major antagonist?
    Uh, we had BFA. Plenty of pirate stuff in that expansion.

  14. #6054
    I do wonder what the theme of Avaloren would be. The name obviously comes from Avalon which suggests a very classic fantasy feeling.
    At the same time the one Keeper who was originally there was Innaria and that name doesn't really fit such a theme. The keepers so far have kept to real world pantheon themes; The Ulduar keepers are Norse, Ra and the Uldum keepers are Egyptian (I'd say that original artwork for the Pantheon was likely Greek or Roman themed but while the Titans themselves do have the look, neither their names nor the other elements around them keep to it). Innaria could point to a set of keepers themed after Mesopotamia (Inanna) or even Japan (Inari).
    Multiple themes could exist together; a classic fantasy world filled with Titan ruins themed after e.g. Mesopotamian (which is a very specific and very striking look that absolutely can work with Titan buildings and is also very close to the Black Empire style; perhaps it would be a mix of both being repurposed Black Empire buildings).

    That said, I'd love another go at South Seas with Tel Abim and an Arabian Nights theme. It could link to the elemental theme of this expansion though Kezan would absolutely stick like a sore thumb if they went for that.

  15. #6055
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I do wonder what the theme of Avaloren would be. The name obviously comes from Avalon which suggests a very classic fantasy feeling.
    At the same time the one Keeper who was originally there was Innaria and that name doesn't really fit such a theme. The keepers so far have kept to real world pantheon themes; The Ulduar keepers are Norse, Ra and the Uldum keepers are Egyptian (I'd say that original artwork for the Pantheon was likely Greek or Roman themed but while the Titans themselves do have the look, neither their names nor the other elements around them keep to it). Innaria could point to a set of keepers themed after Mesopotamia (Inanna) or even Japan (Inari).
    Multiple themes could exist together; a classic fantasy world filled with Titan ruins themed after e.g. Mesopotamian (which is a very specific and very striking look that absolutely can work with Titan buildings and is also very close to the Black Empire style; perhaps it would be a mix of both being repurposed Black Empire buildings).

    That said, I'd love another go at South Seas with Tel Abim and an Arabian Nights theme. It could link to the elemental theme of this expansion though Kezan would absolutely stick like a sore thumb if they went for that.
    Combined could be possible. The report talks about how the heretics took out Innaria (well, presumably anyway) which would imply, to me at least, that Innaria and any other keepers were not part of the group of heretics. So maybe portions of Mesopotamia and fae/Avalon? The only issue there really is though I wonder if we'd do any Fae-themed stuff after Ardenwealed just last expansion.

    Still, I'm hopeful. Either would make me real excited.

  16. #6056
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    It's not a theory and it's even less ridiculous.

    The Uldaman and Forbidden Reach books mention Avaloren and explain a lot of interesting stuff with pirates and western exploration.

    At this stage, it is not a theory. Otherwise why would they fill the game with all these lore books?
    I mean, it's not like we just came out of nowhere. There is factual evidence at stake.
    Of course it is a theory. There are indications pointing to it so it is not baseless speculation but that's all it is. The plots being seeded could be meant for future expansions well past the next one after all (indeed, they SHOULD be doing so, especially after Shadowlands were one of the most compelling arguments on why the narrative was poor was the low quality of foreshadowing the story).
    It doesn't mean it is not likely but let's not misuse words. The Light and Void narratives have been hinted at in the story for far longer.

  17. #6057
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Of course it is a theory. There are indications pointing to it so it is not baseless speculation but that's all it is. The plots being seeded could be meant for future expansions well past the next one after all (indeed, they SHOULD be doing so, especially after Shadowlands were one of the most compelling arguments on why the narrative was poor was the low quality of foreshadowing the story).
    It doesn't mean it is not likely but let's not misuse words. The Light and Void narratives have been hinted at in the story for far longer.
    If it came down to it, I'd rather choose Light v Void then Pirates. Pirates just don't do anything for me.
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  18. #6058
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If it came down to it, I'd rather choose Light v Void then Pirates. Pirates just don't do anything for me.
    Honestly Pirates are just low impact for WoW. I just cannot see them becoming a threat worth our time.

  19. #6059
    Pirates are great intro/first raid of expac material. Can you imagine a raid on a fleet of boats?
    I will not reply to posts that are non-constructive or contain flaming and/or trolling.

  20. #6060
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    That said, I'd love another go at South Seas with Tel Abim and an Arabian Nights theme. It could link to the elemental theme of this expansion though Kezan would absolutely stick like a sore thumb if they went for that.
    If they’re doing Kezan, then you have to do Undermine. Given that the developers said that Zalarak Caverns could lead to more underground stuff in the future, it makes sense. I suppose the question is if they went that route, would they introduce the Tinker class in 11.0 right after Evokers? That would be something.

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