1. #6281
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    I tend to agree on Yrel being the Light antagonist. I don't recall much from the mag'har scenario, is there an active gateway between AU draenor and azeroth? If no, the upcoming bronze dragonflight story points seem like an easy way to get there again.

    I think next expansion as light versus void set on Avaloren seems like a safe prediction. Many ways we could get there. Light invasion pushes heroes there, we take refuge with "good" void followers, primalists go there to get allies against order, etc.
    Meh, why layer themes though? It feels so wasteful.

  2. #6282
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    I tend to agree on Yrel being the Light antagonist. I don't recall much from the mag'har scenario, is there an active gateway between AU draenor and azeroth? If no, the upcoming bronze dragonflight story points seem like an easy way to get there again.
    Yeah, I could definitely picture Morchie or Murozond being the trigger that gets Yrel’s army to MU Azeroth. It lines up quite well with the infinite flight being a constant threat in this expansion. I can definitely see Morchie popping up on a consistent basis going forward, just like Chromie has throughout the history of WoW.

  3. #6283
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMitchy96 View Post
    Indeed, though a big problem with the Jailer (aside from being a bit of a garbage villain in general) was that his character was so innately tied to the Shadowlands that outside of maybe a Mawsworn attack on Azeroth of some sort there's not much else they could have done with him IMO.

    Noz/Muro on the other hand, is a character deeply engrained in the story of Azeroth and Warcraft in general, there's an infinite (pun intended) number of directions they could take his story in to keep him around for a looooong time!
    I think the Jailer would have made an incredible concept for a single-player RPG villain. One that could genuinely capture the player (leading to a Game Over.)

    The problem with The Maw is that it didn't feel dangerous or imposing. In 9.0 it was just a really time-gated endgame zone that limited you in terms of resources you could obtain. By 9.1 it was a welfare epic dispensary and by 9.2 it was dead content. The only thing 'hostile' about it was the game design (players couldn't mount for example)...

    Zovaal could have easily won this whole conflict by just subduing the Maw Walker. Instead, he allowed us to run throughout his entire domain to farm Soul Ash to our heart's content and free as many imprisoned souls as possible.

  4. #6284
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People were basing that on a cinematic. Iridikron is just using typical earth magic, not light magic.

    That said, yes I do see the next major enemy in WoW being light-based. The void as an enemy is rather tired, and having a light based enemy would push the point that there are no “good” or “evil” cosmic forces.

    The avatar of this cosmic force?



    EDIT: There is also talk that Yrel’s army is the new Burning Legion, only light-based instead of demon-Fel based, since both were created to defeat the void.

    Interestingly, both are largely commanded by Draenei twisted by cosmic forces.
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?

    THIS is the draenei I remember:


  5. #6285
    I think we've exhausted the "why Shadowlands is bad" discussion. Let's pick it up again next xpac when people will show up trying to tell us how Shadowlands was actually really good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?
    I assume she is kneeling?

  6. #6286
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People were basing that on a cinematic. Iridikron is just using typical earth magic, not light magic.

    That said, yes I do see the next major enemy in WoW being light-based. The void as an enemy is rather tired, and having a light based enemy would push the point that there are no “good” or “evil” cosmic forces.

    The avatar of this cosmic force?

    -- SNIP --

    EDIT: There is also talk that Yrel’s army is the new Burning Legion, only light-based instead of demon-Fel based, since both were created to defeat the void.

    Interestingly, both are largely commanded by Draenei twisted by cosmic forces.
    Perhaps, though I'm still of the opinion that if she comes forth in a fight with the Light, it will be less as the main avatar of this force and more as the Harbinger whom we first meet, possibly as an ally or enemy pending if you are Alliance or Horde.

    I would not be surprised in the slightest if she finds some sort of redemption and becomes a leader of the Lightforged Draenei.

  7. #6287
    If Yrel's Shining Crusade comes to Azeroth as an invasion force instead of spending at least the first season trying to convert people to their cause, the writers would be completely incompetent. Come to help, provide new tech while also preaching the Light. Start with a different threat that the Crusade helps us against. Then in the second tier start making the zeal apparent while we wipe out that threat and have multiple people from both factions balk at the "ends justify the means" mentality. Third tier you face off against faction members that change side and final tier go against Xe'ra. Imo, Yrel gets redemption=death plot.

  8. #6288
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?

    THIS is the draenei I remember:

    [IMG]
    Nothing. She's just wearing armour.

  9. #6289
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of this "Holy Light can be bad" narrative but I'm not super angry about it. I don't see anything wrong with a cosmic force that totally isn't nefarious and what not. Kinda like Life(It would be really jarring if Life was like "Yeah we don't trust mortals."
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  10. #6290
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm not a fan of this "Holy Light can be bad" narrative but I'm not super angry about it. I don't see anything wrong with a cosmic force that totally isn't nefarious and what not. Kinda like Life(It would be really jarring if Life was like "Yeah we don't trust mortals."
    I don't see it as Light can be bad. More as "some Naaru can be bad". Xe'ra was not the best person and I think most people assume Yrel's Light Mother is AU Xe'ra. Imo if they went for it, they should bring A'dal back as an opposing force.

  11. #6291
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm not a fan of this "Holy Light can be bad" narrative but I'm not super angry about it. I don't see anything wrong with a cosmic force that totally isn't nefarious and what not. Kinda like Life(It would be really jarring if Life was like "Yeah we don't trust mortals."
    It's not nefarious. It just has goals that are at odds with ours. We already had bad Light and Life anyway.

    Being enemies isn't usually about good or evil.

  12. #6292
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Perhaps, though I'm still of the opinion that if she comes forth in a fight with the Light, it will be less as the main avatar of this force and more as the Harbinger whom we first meet, possibly as an ally or enemy pending if you are Alliance or Horde.
    Possibly. However, when we last saw her she was leading this force, and according to reports, she was the main one pushing its genocidal agenda.

    I do think what may happen is that initially she comes in peace, tries to sway leaders of the Alliance and Horde to her ideals. Eventually we see her agenda for what it is, but by that point some major leaders of both sides are already swayed and the factions begin to buckle from within as this overwhelming invasion force pushes in. It could be a pretty epic conflict that leaves the factions and Azeroth heavily damaged in the aftermath.

    I would not be surprised in the slightest if she finds some sort of redemption and becomes a leader of the Lightforged Draenei.
    Nah, I don't see a redemption arc for her. I think she dies by the end. She's too far gone to be redeemed or reprogrammed.

  13. #6293
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Meh, why layer themes though? It feels so wasteful.
    How do you mean layer themes? It feels like one theme to me.

    I think the theme will largely be a continuation of the theme they're starting in DF: the cosmic forces aren't inherently good or evil. I think the next few expansions will stretch their stories and themes out rather than establish and resolve a new threat and theme with each expansion.

    I think the current arc of the next several expansions will focus on having the characters learn that the cosmic forces are morally eqivalent, that squabbling among them will make them unprepared for the "greater threat" that n'zoth and the jailer have both mentioned, and that the cosmic forces need to unite in order to survive (probably infuse azeroth with a balance of all of them to fight whatever that threat ends up being - I think probably the devourers introduced in SL).

    Now whether whoever is directing the story 5-10 years from now continues the current threads or changes them, who knows. My money would be on the latter, but that's no fun for expansion predictions.

  14. #6294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I don't see it as Light can be bad. More as "some Naaru can be bad". Xe'ra was not the best person and I think most people assume Yrel's Light Mother is AU Xe'ra. Imo if they went for it, they should bring A'dal back as an opposing force.
    I know it's already set since there's multiples of the naaru from outland and au draenor, but would have been more fun imo if there was only one Xe'ra and she can only body hop into her existing children. If K'ara were one of her spawn and she went into that after Illidan killed her, that would prolly take care of why she wants everyone on Azeroth dead

    Would also be kinda fun to see Velen's counterpart be the cause of the whole mess by saving K'ara

  15. #6295
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Being enemies isn't usually about good or evil.
    In Warcraft, it VERY MUCH is. Like, 90% of the time.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  16. #6296
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Possibly. However, when we last saw her she was leading this force, and according to reports, she was the main one pushing its genocidal agenda.
    I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.

  17. #6297
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.
    The readiness with which so many people accept Geya'rah and Grom's version of events just baffles me. That said, I do think that Yrel is pushing for cultural genocide of at least some Horde cultures, what with Shadowmoon void casters being part of the Mag'har as shown in Stormsong Valley and given Blackrock industrialism's impact on the environment.

  18. #6298
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I'm inclined to contest that Yrel is outwardly genocidal; if anything, she seems to be most interested in overseeing mass conversions, and we don't know whether or not those conversions entail any kind of cultural genocide or if the Orcs are otherwise maintaining their previously-existent social orders, tribal identities, and autonomy. It's entirely possible that the microcosm we're seeing isn't reflective of the overall situation, and that the Mag'har are somehow misrepresenting the nature of their conflict and the degree to which the conversions among other Orcs are a product of coercion. We also don't quite know the full story behind the current conflict on Draenor. Let's not forget that our primary source for anything that goes on there is Geya'rah, who is markedly stoked on Grom—the former overseer of a hyperexpansionist regime—to a perturbing degree. It's entirely possible that the Mag'har are more a group of fringe reactionaries than we've been led to believe, and that the Lightbound only became so aggressive after the Mag'har began attacking their missionaries for posing a perceived threat to them. Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I'm definitely not inclined to believe that Yrel has become an irredeemable villain, and that the only recourse for her malfeasance is in her demise.
    It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”

  19. #6299
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    It would be an incredibly unwise move to minimize the culpability of religious colonizers enforcing the fantasy equivalent of the white man’s burden. It’s pretty clear what’s going on. And it’s pretty clear what real world events are being referenced. It would certainly be a take to say, “Well, actually, they did a lot to help the Orcs!”
    The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.

  20. #6300
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The analogy falls apart completely when you consider that those same orcs attempted genocide against said religious colonizers a scant few years earlier and a significant number of them allied with Satan and tried to destroy the planet.
    Their pretence isn’t revenge. That’s fair game. Their pretence is forcible conversion and cultural assimilation. Once you take that route, you better take care. Especially if nuance isn’t your strong suit in your writing.

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