1. #6421
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    What even is the philosophical difference between Light/Order and Void/Chaos? The Light wants to bring order to the universe, and the Void wants to bring chaos, so why are Order and Chaos their own separate Forces? Heck, Void does a better job representing Chaos than the Demons do.
    Light and Order are the more difficult one, though it seems it's dogmatism vs. strict rule adherence. The Light doesn't care about order so much as everybody doing what the Light wants. Light will accept breaking rules if it serves to advance its goals. Order will accept you diverging from its goals as long as you keep the rules.

    You're completely off about the goal of the Void. The Void Lords in particular want to consume all, i.e. consign everything to nothingness or void. Chaos is just a side effect, not a goal by itself. It's also all about individualism and exploring all potential paths, i.e. the polar opposite of Light.

    Disorder meanwhile seeks to do away with all rules, the only kind of organisation being the strong forcing the weak to do their bidding. By its nature, it doesn't really have any coherent goals.
    Sargeras upended that whole thing for a while.

  2. #6422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That actually isn’t a bad idea. I’d support something like that.

    Also don’t forget Crypt Fiends from WC3 and Anub Arak from HotS.

    EDIT: Gotta say, this concept is really intriguing me. Might have to make a thread about it.
    Doooo EEEEEEEEAT

  3. #6423
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    What even is the philosophical difference between Light/Order and Void/Chaos? The Light wants to bring order to the universe, and the Void wants to bring chaos, so why are Order and Chaos their own separate Forces? Heck, Void does a better job representing Chaos than the Demons do.
    My personal headcanon is that Order represents and embodies the mechanisms and function of physical and positive laws, whereas the Light distinguishes strictly what is and is not true/extant. As such, Order can be defined as manifesting rules and functions, whereas Light manifests order in the sense of strict definition. Meanwhile, Void represents chaos in the sense of illimitable possibilities,—unconcerned with distinguishing what is and is not,—whereas Disorder manifests chaos in the sense of something being profoundly wrong and precisely "disordered". In that sense, the Void is a limitless hodgepodge of everything that could potentially be, whereas Disorder is destructive physical and spiritual corruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Honestly this is the main reason I’d want a Yrel/AU crusade expan id kill to see light forged Garrosh.
    On one hand, it's profoundly stupid. On the other hand, it strikes a fascinating point between what is extremely awesome and what is so positively moronic as to be immensely funny, which makes me inclined to like it because the lore has been so irrevocably fucked by this point that embracing the cool stupid shit is the best way to go forward from here.

    However, the sad fact that ought to be noted is that the Exarch is not Garrosh. Garrosh was never born in that timeline, which is precisely why Kairoz chose it. The Exarch is presumably another, entirely distinct Orc; even beyond the factual impossibility of it, I highly doubt somebody as jingoistic and meatheaded as Garrosh would be willing to submit to a foreign force.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-05-23 at 02:52 AM.

  4. #6424
    Plot twist: Neltharion is still alive. Ebyssian is Neltharion (that's the reason why he didnt enter Aberrus saying that the only legacy Neltharion left behind is death and destruction. and that Wrathion and Sabellian should witness it on their own)

  5. #6425
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Light and Order both see 1 path, but one is far more dogmatic in its viewpoints. Order wants to follow the path of structuring everything, and going about the Titans way of things, hence why things such as Time follow the "1 true timeline" rule, etc. Meanwhile, Light thinks itself right and true, and will literally force people against their wills to do things, so long as it benefits the Light.
    This really doesn’t seem like a light thing are more like a Xera thing. Like even the Narru them selfs didn’t have 1 path some wanted illidan dead for being a meany others thought he was the only hope and killing him was an awful crime.

    The light it self seems like it couldn’t care less about what’s right or true as long as you believe in it which is why any one can use it for any thing as long as they have faith in it and there cause.

    Hell if they really wanted to go with the light and void being opposites they could even make it so the light it self has no grand plan or even light lords and just gives it’s power freely where as the void has lords and ulterior motives. It would even make sense with the Narru who unlike the old gods weren’t sent out on a mission and were just a by product of creating the universe shot out with the Big Bang.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  6. #6426
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it's like she's just forgiven for everything she did because supposedly the Jailer was pulling her strings all along.
    Ah yes, cleanup duty in hell = all is forgiven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not to mention it's the so-called "evil side" that says "stop this bloodshed", while the "oppressed side" is the one that says "I want another exarch head to mount on my wall":
    Not to bring RL shit into this, but that's actually a method of oppression, saying "don't fight back", "stop resisting", "just be normal (=like us)" and ordering "offering" magical conversion therapy.
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  7. #6427
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    If we’re going to stay on the subject of a Light themed expansion with Yrel invading backed by X’era(which I do see happening as an expansion at some point but not in the following or even after that) then what zones do you lot see as being apart of the main landmass? How have the zones changed? What would the variety be to keep us from experiencing Light fatigue? I could see a Light “corrupted” Nagrand. Golden rolling plains as opposed to green to reflect the influence of the Light. Draenei architecture and structures replacing the Orcish settlements. Maybe even combined Draenei/Orc architecture?

    Do we take the fight to Draenor again, this time radically changed by the Light instead of ripped apart by the Twisting Nether?

    A sub-continent of zones grouped together in EK or Kalimdor? Such as Lordaeron (Plaguelands, Gilneas, Hillsbrad, Silverpine etc)? Northern Kalimdor? How do you see them changed if so?

    A Cataclysm style with various zones spread out over EK and Kalimdor? Which ones?

    A Light based realm or planet?
    They could use Draenor's other continent, we still haven't seen anything of that besides a bit of the coast on the world map. Alternatively, the fact that they're planning to spread the Light to other worlds means that they could show up pretty much anywhere- whether that means Azeroth or an entirely new world.

    Regardless, I think that, at least initially, we shouldn't be facing them on their home turf. Save the light-dominated world for the late-expansion patches and start with a place they're trying to convert. Have them come in peace and grow forceful- and then outright hostile- to everyone who isn't receptive to their teachings as we progress through the story.

  8. #6428
    Quote Originally Posted by Radioactive View Post
    I agree that they won't spend time to implement numerous flying races on Kalimdor only to "destroy" them an expansion later... But I do not despair. To me it pretty much confirms a world revamp!

    - For some reason they were interested and had to make a choice: they choose to make Dragonriding Races only on kalimdor. Meaning it will be the Eastern Kingdom that will be revamped. Which is good! Since revamping two massive continents would be too much work for an expansion. They'll need to focus on "only" one continent and make it really great.
    - Blizz said (I can't find the exact quote) that the Cataclysm world revamp was pushed by the success of flying 1.0 and wanting to make people experience flying in the old world. ==> Dragonriding/Dynamic Flying is now the push they needed to make another oldworld revamp, and they choose to focus on the Easter Kingdoms as it seems.
    For me is quite the opossite, actually.

    First, the Eastern Kingdoms will have Dragonriding too, I am pretty sure that they were already some related datamined achievements.

    Precisely the fact that they are adding Dragonriding to the old continents is a reason to believe that this will not happen. And believe me, I hope that I am wrong.

    Why would they spend time making Dragonriding races if a revamp would change them? There would be terrain changes for sure in a revamp, and I am pretty confident that zones would be mixed into bigger zones too, as current Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms zones are small compared to current ones.

    Anyway, I still have hope because if a revamp happens, is either going to be a visual one, or is going to happen in a new map without changing the Cataclysm zones (IMO).
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


  9. #6429
    I feel like if they don't want to do a revamp, they should at least add some world quests to older zones that unlock a currency that you can spend for HD version of some old armor sets/weapons, so you can at least do something there again.

    I would be happy with something like making goldshire bigger, better looking with the use of these datamined HD human buildings and overall small things getting updated ijn other zones.

    I also think that WoW is lacking a introductory campaign for new players, like in other games like in GW 2 you have campaign quest every 10 lvls and you don't jump from some big zone to another with disconnected stories.

  10. #6430
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    Definitely agree going right from DF to light vs void seems sudden. I wouldn't be surprised if they did another expansion first.

    I think Ion had a quote about how they'll still have cosmic expansions. I think those will be set primarily on azeroth after SL's reception. I would be surprised if they had an entire expansion set on another world/plane. But I could see light vs void set on azeroth, with patch content on k'aresh/wherever. Similar to the Legion model.

    But basically yeah I do think they could make a "grounded" version of a light vs void expansion.
    Tbf, the whole Void VS Light fanboyism comes from the same people who desperatly want to see Yrel be the new big evil. Nobody knows why, but apparently one NPC in one side quest (heritage armor) being evil is now enough for a whole expansion.

    my theory is that it's the same as with Lady Dimitresque in RE8. Just a whole "evil mommy" kind of obsession from people.

    If we're going Void vs Light, personally I'd much rather see more settled/grounded factions in this war. Stuff like:

    Scarlets (or whatever is left of them)
    Priest class hall
    Alleria

    sides that already had to deal with this void vs light issue.

  11. #6431
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    Plot twist: Neltharion is still alive. Ebyssian is Neltharion (that's the reason why he didnt enter Aberrus saying that the only legacy Neltharion left behind is death and destruction. and that Wrathion and Sabellian should witness it on their own)
    Then who is Deathwing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    I feel like if they don't want to do a revamp, they should at least add some world quests to older zones that unlock a currency that you can spend for HD version of some old armor sets/weapons, so you can at least do something there again.

    I would be happy with something like making goldshire bigger, better looking with the use of these datamined HD human buildings and overall small things getting updated ijn other zones.
    Cataclysm happened way too soon, back then we didn't have anything that could make better use of the Old World, and the fact that it's been nearly 15 years since that happened and we've no Revamp in sight is really frustrating.

    Blizzard keeps "asspulling" new places to explore while we have two giant continents that would look unrecognizable for the vast majority of the player base if they revamp it like Arathi in BFA while keeping the new expansion grounded and "Warcrafty".

    I think Blizzard should at the very least create a program for fans to send Mods/Models to be validated and introduced into the game since there're already people out there doing Revamps/Remakes just for passion.

  12. #6432
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    For me is quite the opossite, actually.

    First, the Eastern Kingdoms will have Dragonriding too, I am pretty sure that they were already some related datamined achievements.

    Precisely the fact that they are adding Dragonriding to the old continents is a reason to believe that this will not happen. And believe me, I hope that I am wrong.

    Why would they spend time making Dragonriding races if a revamp would change them? There would be terrain changes for sure in a revamp, and I am pretty confident that zones would be mixed into bigger zones too, as current Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms zones are small compared to current ones.

    Anyway, I still have hope because if a revamp happens, is either going to be a visual one, or is going to happen in a new map without changing the Cataclysm zones (IMO).
    Yeah for me Kalimdor dragon racing just killed the Revamp dream completely. Maybe we could get visual updates that are fully procedural; batch replacement of world objects, retexturing existing terrain, maybe some light work with world geometry when it comes to zone borders. Maybe. Still low chance at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck4 View Post
    Then who is Deathwing?

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    Cataclysm happened way too soon, back then we didn't have anything that could make better use of the Old World, and the fact that it's been nearly 15 years since that happened and we've no Revamp in sight is really frustrating.

    Blizzard keeps "asspulling" new places to explore while we have two giant continents that would look unrecognizable for the vast majority of the player base if they revamp it like Arathi in BFA while keeping the new expansion grounded and "Warcrafty".

    I think Blizzard should at the very least create a program for fans to send Mods/Models to be validated and introduced into the game since there're already people out there doing Revamps/Remakes just for passion.
    They really could even do full remakes and just connect it with the old world using the new seamless transition system they made for Zaralek. Most of the subcontinents could support entire expansions if somewhat enlarged to bring them closer to the scale of e.g. Kul Tiras. Lordaeron in particular has massive potential that involves multiple races from both factions.
    But given Kalimdor Dragon racing and likely EK getting the same in 10.1.7 or 10.2.5 . . . the revamp dream seems dead

  13. #6433
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Lordaeron in particular has massive potential that involves multiple races from both factions.
    But given Kalimdor Dragon racing and likely EK getting the same in 10.1.7 or 10.2.5 . . . the revamp dream seems dead
    Honestly, remade/fixed Lordaeron being a main hub for both Horde and alliance has a big potential and from there we could have some campaign story in older zones.

  14. #6434
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    For me is quite the opossite, actually.

    First, the Eastern Kingdoms will have Dragonriding too, I am pretty sure that they were already some related datamined achievements.

    Precisely the fact that they are adding Dragonriding to the old continents is a reason to believe that this will not happen. And believe me, I hope that I am wrong.

    Why would they spend time making Dragonriding races if a revamp would change them? There would be terrain changes for sure in a revamp, and I am pretty confident that zones would be mixed into bigger zones too, as current Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms zones are small compared to current ones.

    Anyway, I still have hope because if a revamp happens, is either going to be a visual one, or is going to happen in a new map without changing the Cataclysm zones (IMO).
    It is likely that an updated old world would allow us to revisit the "old" versions with the bronze dragons.
    So anything they do with the old zones isn't lost, allowing them to tinker with this stuff.

    Making these races doesn't seem entirely resource intensive. This isn't like they just added massive quest chains or anything.

  15. #6435
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    Honestly, remade/fixed Lordaeron being a main hub for both Horde and alliance has a big potential and from there we could have some campaign story in older zones.
    Lordaeron imo is just badly done to begin with as a sub continent. Quel'thalas being separate, the lack of the Stratholme Bay area (often called Northeron by fans), the Amani heartlands not existing, Alterac Valley having no place whatsoever in the map are all weird choices. Heck I never even understood why they changed the geography so radically from the WC3 and before maps; Lordamere Lake no longer connects to the ocean (you could have had a harbor in Capital City if it did) with Dalaran at the mouth of the river connecting the Lake with the sea, Gilneas having a very different shape, no Channel Islands leading to Kul Tiras...

  16. #6436
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    There is.

    Light and Order both see 1 path, but one is far more dogmatic in its viewpoints. Order wants to follow the path of structuring everything, and going about the Titans way of things, hence why things such as Time follow the "1 true timeline" rule, etc. Meanwhile, Light thinks itself right and true, and will literally force people against their wills to do things, so long as it benefits the Light. Many people become fanatics as well when deep into the Light and its faith. Much like religious people in a way.

    Shadow has many types of things for its influence, but the Void mostly wants to bring everything to nothingness and whatnot, and will go about any means necessary to make sure their influence gets expanded upon. They do see infinite possibilities of course.

    Also, Disorder is just that, Disorderly. The Demons are very much chaotic in nature, the Nether is absolutely chaotic in how it works and whatnot, Disorder overall represents anarchy, lawlessness, and chaos, etc.

    At least the Void has a type of rule to it, even if it's a very Lovecraftian and dark rule. Disorder has no real "rule" and was only ever given a "rule" once Sargeras created the Legion.
    The way I read it is that Order wants everything to be ordered. Everything should work properly, like a clock on a shelf. What happens to the clock isn't as important as long as it keeps ticking.
    The Light meanwhile doesn't really care about Order so much as it wants a specific endgoal. It wants a shelf with all its favorite things on it, and it doesn't care how ruined the rest of the room gets so long as the shelf ends up looking good in the end.

    Void and Disorder are more abstract. But here I see it as the Void being primarily concerned with possibilities. All kinds of stuff could happen, and we should pursue every single one if it means marginal improvements.
    Disorder meanwhile has no plans whatsoever, rather being complete anarchy.
    To continue the shelf analogy, the Void would constantly replace things on the shelf or add new shelves if it found a new toy. Disorder would just break the shelf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Yeah for me Kalimdor dragon racing just killed the Revamp dream completely. Maybe we could get visual updates that are fully procedural; batch replacement of world objects, retexturing existing terrain, maybe some light work with world geometry when it comes to zone borders. Maybe. Still low chance at it.

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    They really could even do full remakes and just connect it with the old world using the new seamless transition system they made for Zaralek. Most of the subcontinents could support entire expansions if somewhat enlarged to bring them closer to the scale of e.g. Kul Tiras. Lordaeron in particular has massive potential that involves multiple races from both factions.
    But given Kalimdor Dragon racing and likely EK getting the same in 10.1.7 or 10.2.5 . . . the revamp dream seems dead
    How is Dragonriding being added in any way killing the world Revamp dream? Isn't it just as likely it proves it is happening given it shows the developers are working on the old continents to make Dragonriding possible?

    Unless we assume that the revamped zones disappear completely then surely the races would just be old content, like what every single Dragonriding race we have in the Dragon Isles would be. Did Legion make a world revamp impossible because we had a few quests in old zones?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  17. #6437
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The way I read it is that Order wants everything to be ordered. Everything should work properly, like a clock on a shelf. What happens to the clock isn't as important as long as it keeps ticking.
    The Light meanwhile doesn't really care about Order so much as it wants a specific endgoal. It wants a shelf with all its favorite things on it, and it doesn't care how ruined the rest of the room gets so long as the shelf ends up looking good in the end.
    Jumping off of this, in as much as there's a difference, it's one of priorities. Order does good in order to facilitate structure. The Light creates structure because it maximizes good. To Order, the means are the end. It doesn't make much difference if something works well, if it could at some point break, if it isn't foreseeable and its actions aren't understandable. That's why the default titan constructs are automaton people who do have traits, but are preset towards their purpose and why the first order of business for dragons is to take the random colouring of the Aspects and turn them into broad categories. Categories, plural, being the operative term.

    By contrast, it doesn't much interest the Light whether you convert out of genuine conviction, or really what that conviction even is, you could want to heal the sick or to club the nonbeliever, so long as you're tied to the source it doesn't matter. In ideal circumstances, you wouldn't be forced into it, but if you are, tough, it's for your own good. Which is what leads into the other main point - the Light is intrinsically positive. The traits that are tied into it - empathy, courage, selflessness etc. are invariably good, its effects are geared towards support and healing. It aligns the soul and makes you a better person. You can use it for evil, but its principal nature is good, much like how the void's principal nature is evil, but it can be used for good.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #6438
    Quote Originally Posted by CopyX1982 View Post
    Blizzcon is gonna be very intriguing though, WoW is on such a good roll right now.
    For how long though? Blizz is constantly losing people. They constantly require to cut back on planned features on their games. There is no quarantee Dragonflight can reach its finnish without crumbling on the way and it'll be small miracle if 11.0 is any good at this rate.

  19. #6439
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Jumping off of this, in as much as there's a difference, it's one of priorities. Order does good in order to facilitate structure. The Light creates structure because it maximizes good. To Order, the means are the end. It doesn't make much difference if something works well, if it could at some point break, if it isn't foreseeable and its actions aren't understandable. That's why the default titan constructs are automaton people who do have traits, but are preset towards their purpose and why the first order of business for dragons is to take the random colouring of the Aspects and turn them into broad categories. Categories, plural, being the operative term.

    By contrast, it doesn't much interest the Light whether you convert out of genuine conviction, or really what that conviction even is, you could want to heal the sick or to club the nonbeliever, so long as you're tied to the source it doesn't matter. In ideal circumstances, you wouldn't be forced into it, but if you are, tough, it's for your own good. Which is what leads into the other main point - the Light is intrinsically positive. The traits that are tied into it - empathy, courage, selflessness etc. are invariably good, its effects are geared towards support and healing. It aligns the soul and makes you a better person. You can use it for evil, but its principal nature is good, much like how the void's principal nature is evil, but it can be used for good.
    You know I'd like to say so much more about this BUT this is ENTIRELY a lore discussion and not a future content discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    For how long though? Blizz is constantly losing people. They constantly require to cut back on planned features on their games. There is no quarantee Dragonflight can reach its finnish without crumbling on the way and it'll be small miracle if 11.0 is any good at this rate.
    Really they are going into Blizzcon with the Overwatch 2 disaster over their heads. And it absolutely is a disaster and they lied to our faces about it when they launched OW2 telling us it would have PvE when they had already decided the version of PvE promised would be killed.

    Which is why they need at least one of their products to have something major to sell. I am hoping for WoW to have big news. I'll say it again, the next expac is likely to release during the 20th/30th anniversary. Part of me will always hope for Revamp which imo is the only thing BIG enough to show that the franchise has decades forward except for maybe Housing. But if it is not Revamp and it is just another "4-5 zones, 8 dungeons, 1 raid with 8-10 bosses" they don't need a convention for that.

    HS just is not likely to have anything else than more of the same. HotS is dead. The Survival game is likely still way off. Arclight Rumble might be fun but the Blizzcon crowd is not the target audience. So they have WoW and Diablo 4. It IS possible that we get a Diablo 4 expansion reveal
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-05-23 at 09:50 AM.

  20. #6440
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Jumping off of this, in as much as there's a difference, it's one of priorities. Order does good in order to facilitate structure. The Light creates structure because it maximizes good. To Order, the means are the end. It doesn't make much difference if something works well, if it could at some point break, if it isn't foreseeable and its actions aren't understandable. That's why the default titan constructs are automaton people who do have traits, but are preset towards their purpose and why the first order of business for dragons is to take the random colouring of the Aspects and turn them into broad categories. Categories, plural, being the operative term.

    By contrast, it doesn't much interest the Light whether you convert out of genuine conviction, or really what that conviction even is, you could want to heal the sick or to club the nonbeliever, so long as you're tied to the source it doesn't matter. In ideal circumstances, you wouldn't be forced into it, but if you are, tough, it's for your own good. Which is what leads into the other main point - the Light is intrinsically positive. The traits that are tied into it - empathy, courage, selflessness etc. are invariably good, its effects are geared towards support and healing. It aligns the soul and makes you a better person. You can use it for evil, but its principal nature is good, much like how the void's principal nature is evil, but it can be used for good.
    I also want to point out that while it could just be a problem of low representation, that we have yet to see an actual Titan do shady stuff. It's always the Titan keepers and other Titan constructs that does whatever in the name of the Titans.

    If I were to extrapolate from this then my interpretation is that the Titans honestly don't care about what happens after they order stuff. As you said, the means are the end. They just want to treat the universe as a large scale ant farm. Going into a world, setting up the parameters, then leave it to do its own thing.
    It's then once they leave that the Titan keepers, who evidently treat the Titans as beyond reproach, get their hands on the machinery that things go awry.

    The Light meanwhile just wants everything to be perfect. There is one correct solution to every problem, and that solution is to preserve everything in light stasis forever.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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