1. #6561
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Tbh I miss when any of the DK specs coulda been either Tank or DPS. I thought it was a cool concept and it’d be cool to have hybrid specs like that return.
    I sincerely doubt dual-role specs are ever coming back, especially due to how talent trees are designed today. Giving it a "dual role" means half the tree would have to be dedicated to tanking talents, while the other half would be dedicated to DPS talents, giving less talent options to either role.

    And we'd go back to the vanilla Feral druid situation, who wasn't a decent dps, or a decent tank.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  2. #6562
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Tbh I miss when any of the DK specs coulda been either Tank or DPS. I thought it was a cool concept and it’d be cool to have hybrid specs like that return.
    Doesn't really work practically in the current ecosystem. It only worked because of the pre-MoP class design wherein the majority of your kit was class-wide. Also, as someone who switched to DK for Wrath, I feel like the concept didn't actually pan out gameplay wise. The three specs felt extraordinarily same-y. If the concept were brought forward, it would look a lot like old Feral: very awkwardly pulled in two directions.

    I do think what should be done is that tank specs should all get some talent in the vein of Gladiator stance; sharply cutting their defenses and threat generation and boosting their ST damage 25-30%.

  3. #6563
    Brewmaster Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Dracthyr are merely the playable form of WoW’s dragon characters. Evoker is the name given to dragon power set. In short, you get race/class called Dracthyr Evoker because you can’t have a race/class called Dragon Dragon.

    The idea that they came from nowhere is absurd, since they’re steeped in draconic lore.
    in other words, I can't wait for the humanoid spider playable race that have the power of Cryptlord and Necromancy.

  4. #6564
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    in other words, I can't wait for the humanoid spider playable race that have the power of Cryptlord and Necromancy.
    In my dream version of WoW, the Forsaken faction would have had playable nerubians!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Doesn't really work practically in the current ecosystem. It only worked because of the pre-MoP class design wherein the majority of your kit was class-wide. Also, as someone who switched to DK for Wrath, I feel like the concept didn't actually pan out gameplay wise. The three specs felt extraordinarily same-y. If the concept were brought forward, it would look a lot like old Feral: very awkwardly pulled in two directions.

    I do think what should be done is that tank specs should all get some talent in the vein of Gladiator stance; sharply cutting their defenses and threat generation and boosting their ST damage 25-30%.
    Tbh given the width of the talent tree system they introduced in DF, they absolutely could make specs that can play two different roles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I sincerely doubt dual-role specs are ever coming back, especially due to how talent trees are designed today. Giving it a "dual role" means half the tree would have to be dedicated to tanking talents, while the other half would be dedicated to DPS talents, giving less talent options to either role.

    And we'd go back to the vanilla Feral druid situation, who wasn't a decent dps, or a decent tank.
    But don't you feel the talent tree has enough space for both roles? Right now each talent tree tends to allow for 2 builds with some small variations. You'd effective still have two builds for the spec, just each of them would be in a different role.

  5. #6565
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    But don't you feel the talent tree has enough space for both roles? Right now each talent tree tends to allow for 2 builds with some small variations. You'd effective still have two builds for the spec, just each of them would be in a different role.
    But both builds still share the majority of the talents they use.

    Not to mention that this has the potential to make good tanks with damage-dealing potential that greatly exceeds the other tanks without sacrificing much, if any, survivability; or good DPS with survivability potential that vastly exceeds other DPS specs without sacrificing much, if any, damage.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #6566
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But both builds still share the majority of the talents they use.

    Not to mention that this has the potential to make good tanks with damage-dealing potential that greatly exceeds the other tanks without sacrificing much, if any, survivability; or good DPS with survivability potential that vastly exceeds other DPS specs without sacrificing much, if any, damage.
    I think it would depend a lot on the design; e.g. if a main ability gets modified by an early choice talent to choose between Active Mitigation and DPS spender, it means if you pick the DPS ability you cannot effectively tank. You could dip into strong defensives but you would be giving up significant dps talents). It would absolutely be a massive design constraint which is why they probably would never do it ofc.

  7. #6567
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    in other words, I can't wait for the humanoid spider playable race that have the power of Cryptlord and Necromancy.
    That actually isn’t a bad idea. I’d support something like that.

    Also don’t forget Crypt Fiends from WC3 and Anub Arak from HotS.

    EDIT: Gotta say, this concept is really intriguing me. Might have to make a thread about it.

  8. #6568
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think it would depend a lot on the design; e.g. if a main ability gets modified by an early choice talent to choose between Active Mitigation and DPS spender, it means if you pick the DPS ability you cannot effectively tank. You could dip into strong defensives but you would be giving up significant dps talents). It would absolutely be a massive design constraint which is why they probably would never do it ofc.
    Sounds like a lot of redundant extra work that could be avoided by simply giving the class another spec instead. Not to mention that, returning to a previous point you made, we have usually two different builds inside a single talent tree, but if we add "dual role"... guess what? That number would be reduced to one singular build if the player isn't interesting in tanking, or DPS'ing.

    A dual-role spec greatly restricts build variety at best, and makes unbalanced tanks/dps at worst.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  9. #6569
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Sounds like a lot of redundant extra work that could be avoided by simply giving the class another spec instead. Not to mention that, returning to a previous point you made, we have usually two different builds inside a single talent tree, but if we add "dual role"... guess what? That number would be reduced to one singular build if the player isn't interesting in tanking, or DPS'ing.

    A dual-role spec greatly restricts build variety at best, and makes unbalanced tanks/dps at worst.
    Sure. I am just a person who cares about theme a lot more. If we get more archetypes I am happier and unless the two builds are also variant thematically, they don't mean much to me and for many specs, they are not. Again, not saying it will or should happen; this is not how WoW is designed after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I do think what should be done is that tank specs should all get some talent in the vein of Gladiator stance; sharply cutting their defenses and threat generation and boosting their ST damage 25-30%.
    Heck, simply give them a pure offensive spender.

  10. #6570
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Sure. I am just a person who cares about theme a lot more. If we get more archetypes I am happier and unless the two builds are also variant thematically, they don't mean much to me and for many specs, they are not. Again, not saying it will or should happen; this is not how WoW is designed after all.
    Sure. I just think classes are what represent "themes", while specs represent specific sub-themes. Like the warrior class represents the fighter theme, with its three specs representing the specific team of the weapon mater (arms), the barbarian (fury) and the defender (protection).

    Giving dual roles actually muddles up the subtheme being represented by the spec, in my view.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #6571
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People were basing that on a cinematic. Iridikron is just using typical earth magic, not light magic.

    That said, yes I do see the next major enemy in WoW being light-based. The void as an enemy is rather tired, and having a light based enemy would push the point that there are no “good” or “evil” cosmic forces.

    The avatar of this cosmic force?



    EDIT: There is also talk that Yrel’s army is the new Burning Legion, only light-based instead of demon-Fel based, since both were created to defeat the void.

    Interestingly, both are largely commanded by Draenei twisted by cosmic forces.
    I tend to agree on Yrel being the Light antagonist. I don't recall much from the mag'har scenario, is there an active gateway between AU draenor and azeroth? If no, the upcoming bronze dragonflight story points seem like an easy way to get there again.

    I think next expansion as light versus void set on Avaloren seems like a safe prediction. Many ways we could get there. Light invasion pushes heroes there, we take refuge with "good" void followers, primalists go there to get allies against order, etc.

  12. #6572
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    I tend to agree on Yrel being the Light antagonist. I don't recall much from the mag'har scenario, is there an active gateway between AU draenor and azeroth? If no, the upcoming bronze dragonflight story points seem like an easy way to get there again.

    I think next expansion as light versus void set on Avaloren seems like a safe prediction. Many ways we could get there. Light invasion pushes heroes there, we take refuge with "good" void followers, primalists go there to get allies against order, etc.
    Meh, why layer themes though? It feels so wasteful.

  13. #6573
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    I tend to agree on Yrel being the Light antagonist. I don't recall much from the mag'har scenario, is there an active gateway between AU draenor and azeroth? If no, the upcoming bronze dragonflight story points seem like an easy way to get there again.
    Yeah, I could definitely picture Morchie or Murozond being the trigger that gets Yrel’s army to MU Azeroth. It lines up quite well with the infinite flight being a constant threat in this expansion. I can definitely see Morchie popping up on a consistent basis going forward, just like Chromie has throughout the history of WoW.

  14. #6574
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMitchy96 View Post
    Indeed, though a big problem with the Jailer (aside from being a bit of a garbage villain in general) was that his character was so innately tied to the Shadowlands that outside of maybe a Mawsworn attack on Azeroth of some sort there's not much else they could have done with him IMO.

    Noz/Muro on the other hand, is a character deeply engrained in the story of Azeroth and Warcraft in general, there's an infinite (pun intended) number of directions they could take his story in to keep him around for a looooong time!
    I think the Jailer would have made an incredible concept for a single-player RPG villain. One that could genuinely capture the player (leading to a Game Over.)

    The problem with The Maw is that it didn't feel dangerous or imposing. In 9.0 it was just a really time-gated endgame zone that limited you in terms of resources you could obtain. By 9.1 it was a welfare epic dispensary and by 9.2 it was dead content. The only thing 'hostile' about it was the game design (players couldn't mount for example)...

    Zovaal could have easily won this whole conflict by just subduing the Maw Walker. Instead, he allowed us to run throughout his entire domain to farm Soul Ash to our heart's content and free as many imprisoned souls as possible.

  15. #6575
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People were basing that on a cinematic. Iridikron is just using typical earth magic, not light magic.

    That said, yes I do see the next major enemy in WoW being light-based. The void as an enemy is rather tired, and having a light based enemy would push the point that there are no “good” or “evil” cosmic forces.

    The avatar of this cosmic force?



    EDIT: There is also talk that Yrel’s army is the new Burning Legion, only light-based instead of demon-Fel based, since both were created to defeat the void.

    Interestingly, both are largely commanded by Draenei twisted by cosmic forces.
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?

    THIS is the draenei I remember:


  16. #6576
    I think we've exhausted the "why Shadowlands is bad" discussion. Let's pick it up again next xpac when people will show up trying to tell us how Shadowlands was actually really good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?
    I assume she is kneeling?

  17. #6577
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    People were basing that on a cinematic. Iridikron is just using typical earth magic, not light magic.

    That said, yes I do see the next major enemy in WoW being light-based. The void as an enemy is rather tired, and having a light based enemy would push the point that there are no “good” or “evil” cosmic forces.

    The avatar of this cosmic force?

    -- SNIP --

    EDIT: There is also talk that Yrel’s army is the new Burning Legion, only light-based instead of demon-Fel based, since both were created to defeat the void.

    Interestingly, both are largely commanded by Draenei twisted by cosmic forces.
    Perhaps, though I'm still of the opinion that if she comes forth in a fight with the Light, it will be less as the main avatar of this force and more as the Harbinger whom we first meet, possibly as an ally or enemy pending if you are Alliance or Horde.

    I would not be surprised in the slightest if she finds some sort of redemption and becomes a leader of the Lightforged Draenei.

  18. #6578
    If Yrel's Shining Crusade comes to Azeroth as an invasion force instead of spending at least the first season trying to convert people to their cause, the writers would be completely incompetent. Come to help, provide new tech while also preaching the Light. Start with a different threat that the Crusade helps us against. Then in the second tier start making the zeal apparent while we wipe out that threat and have multiple people from both factions balk at the "ends justify the means" mentality. Third tier you face off against faction members that change side and final tier go against Xe'ra. Imo, Yrel gets redemption=death plot.

  19. #6579
    Quote Originally Posted by Palapop View Post
    lol xD
    Wtf is wrong with her legs?

    THIS is the draenei I remember:

    [IMG]
    Nothing. She's just wearing armour.

  20. #6580
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of this "Holy Light can be bad" narrative but I'm not super angry about it. I don't see anything wrong with a cosmic force that totally isn't nefarious and what not. Kinda like Life(It would be really jarring if Life was like "Yeah we don't trust mortals."
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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