1. #66221
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Granted - but the other example was also half a tier. Even modern WoW raid quality is variable but 8 vs. 10 bosses doesn't always have a ton to do with it.

    It's an extreme to illustrate that quantity in a side by side comparison doesn't mean anything.
    I think the issue is we only got three raids and none of them were particularly large. The other three expansions that only had three raid tiers (and yes, introductory tiers are separate) all had at least one very large raid. I do raid with friends and I definitely felt the difference.

  2. #66222
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    48h Alpha hype???
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #66223
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Also - 8 months between launch and FIRST big patch. EIGHT. MONTHS. Then another another EIGHT with only QoL/Legion timewalking patch in between.
    And I maintain that the first major content patch was almost worse than having nothing at all.

    I'm reminded of, of all things, Superstar Limo at California Adventure - where statistics breakdown showed guests had a worse experience going on it than doing literally anything else at all.

    Korthia was worse than nothing. It gave me a sense of existential dread and physical malaise that rivaled the Maw itself in-universe.

    Sanctum was alright but holy shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think the issue is we only got three raids and none of them were particularly large. The other three expansions that only had three raid tiers (and yes, introductory tiers are separate) all had at least one very large raid. I do raid with friends and I definitely felt the difference.
    And that's fair, DF is the most blandly "safe" thing I think the game's ever tried and it's not exactly the best thing put out.

    I just roll my eyes anytime someone puts Karasaang or Sholazar on the same level as literally any other modern zone. Or people who pretend that Tomb of Sargeras and the Broken Shore weren't terrible. Or people who insist that hundreds of treasures and rares are worth engaging with if they're attached to gameplay systems that make me actually feel less entertainment than playing something at a lower level with less content.

  4. #66224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    48h Alpha hype???
    More like Wednesday/Thursday, Blizzard probably want all these interview launch same time it starts.

  5. #66225
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    48h Alpha hype???
    They need a day or 2 for marketing, so dev update and press releases on tuesday/wednesday and alpha starting thursday/friday.


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  6. #66226
    Bloodsail Admiral Foreign Exchange Ztudent's Avatar
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    It's definitely going to be Wednesday/Thursday.

    Honestly, I haven't been this excited for a Alpha in a long time.
    I no longer reply to quotations beyond if you're asking a genuine question or have a non-confrontational stance.

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  7. #66227
    max said on twitter he's not gonna stream till wednesday, so i guess that's the day alpha drops

  8. #66228
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    And that's fair, DF is the most blandly "safe" thing I think the game's ever tried and it's not exactly the best thing put out.
    For me what DF did best was systems. And after multiple expansion in a row where systems made a mess of the game (Legion included), this was such a welcome change. The talent system, reward system and not M+ changes are all great changes. Professions need a lot of work but they are on the right track and more importantly they managed to make the code changes they needed to get them to work.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I do hope they do some extended Delve testing at the start similar to what they did with Torghast in SL. That's the big unknown for TWW

  9. #66229
    if we count plunderstorm and mop remix as their own thing, i think dragonflight was too safe in both content and story. they focused more on the core gameplay of wow and qol than new features. tww for now seems to be the same. unless they reveal something new, delves are the highlight of the expansion

  10. #66230
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reive View Post
    max said on twitter he's not gonna stream till wednesday, so i guess that's the day alpha drops
    Well, tuesday is the event thing and we know it's a physical thing in London.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  11. #66231
    It would never cease to amaze me that people defend SL, the biggest turd that Blizzard has ever produced. What an absolute piece of shit. A sacrilege against WoW's lore. An expansion which has done irreparable damage to the game.

    In two years people would claim that it was the best expansion ever

    If DF had an epic story like Legion instead of the shitty main story that we got people would say that it was the best expansion in every way. Even with the shitty story, DF with a proper 10.3 patch would probably have been the top expansion of the game for most players.
    Last edited by Darkarath; 2024-04-14 at 07:58 PM.
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  12. #66232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    It would never cease to amaze me that people defend SL, the biggest turd that Blizzard has ever produced. What an absolute piece of shit. A sacrilege against WoW's lore. An expansion which has done irreparable damage to the game.

    In two years people would claim that it was the best expansion ever

    If DF had an epic story like Legion instead of the shitty main story that we got people would say that it was the best expansion in every way. Even with the shitty story, DF with a proper 10.3 patch would probably be the top expansion of the game for most players.
    SL was better than WoD because SL actually had content patches where WoD only had one legitimate content patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
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  13. #66233
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Well, we have to quantify it somehow & it doesn't help if you get that number wrong. Legion had at least 7 depending on how you quantify it. And even then the quality was better than dragonflight zones because they were more engaging.
    I mean, I only counted launch, obviously, which probably comes in Legions favour because the Legion patch zones sucked really badly. Argus was a wasted opportunity and it being one zone split into three zones doesn't really help. Both Krokuun and Antoran Wastes are essentially corridors, and Eredath is an alright zone but half of it is a dungeon. Broken Shore LMAO.

    It literally took a WHOLE YEAR before Legion got a new zone.

    But yeah, I dunno how you can say the zones were "more engaging". What does that even mean?
    Last edited by Makorus; 2024-04-14 at 08:02 PM.

  14. #66234
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    But in actuality, now that we have post-legion subscription numbers, Shadowlands pulled in more subscribers than BFA. (Don't say it was all classic. The Shadowlands release spike was bigger than the classic release spike & BFA release spike combined.)
    Sure, but that doesn't make Shadowlands good or liked no matter how many people misuse that statistic. Shadowlands did draw in a lot of people, but then what?

    They left.

    Shadowlands was hyped, but once people got in and got to actually try it, they were very disappointed, leading to the largest subscriber loss in WoW's history. Or, in other words, people came back because they expected Shadowlands to be good, then quickly left once they learned that it was not.

    The one metric that actually gives any indication of an expansion's quality is retention. The initial peak just shows how many people are optimistic enough to try it in the first place, but retention shows how many people enjoyed it enough to stay. As such, an honest evaluation of the data points to Dragonflight being one of the best-liked expansions for the people who tried it. It had a lower peak- which is to be expected after Shadowlands convinced such a large portion of the playerbase that WoW will never be good again, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to earn back that goodwill- but a far bigger portion of that playerbase decided to keep playing compared to other recent expansions. Less people tried it in the first place, but most of the players who did liked it.

    As for my personal opinion, the content itself wasn't the most exciting, but the major system changes (especially the new talents, Dragonriding, and gear upgrade system) were such massive improvements to the core experience that it ended up as some of the best time I've had in WoW so far, and I think this is the first time since Wrath I've stayed subscribed for an entire expansion. And with these features all getting carried forward... I'm really looking forward to seeing how great the Worldsoul Saga can be if they manage to mix this with more exciting raids and story.

  15. #66235
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    SL was better than WoD because SL actually had content patches where WoD only had one legitimate content patch.
    Both were terrible.
    I'd argue that SL was worse because it was an actively destructive influence on the franchise.

    Whereas WoD was primarily just forgetable and boring.

    SL having had more patches then doesn't really mean much, when said patch content made people wish said patch didn't exist in the first place.


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  16. #66236
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Both were terrible.
    I'd argue that SL was worse because it was an actively destructive influence on the franchise.

    Whereas WoD was primarily just forgetable and boring.

    SL having had more patches then doesn't really mean much, when said patch content made people wish said patch didn't exist in the first place.
    9.1/9.2 both were not bad patches though and actively improved the game outside of the story and fixed the complaints people had with the expansions to begin with.

    Korthia might have been a meh zone but Zereth Mortis was great.

    Meanwhile 6.1 literally added nothing.

  17. #66237
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    Meanwhile 6.1 literally added nothing.
    What do you mean??? It added the selfie camera!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Both were terrible.
    I'd argue that SL was worse because it was an actively destructive influence on the franchise.

    Whereas WoD was primarily just forgetable and boring.

    SL having had more patches then doesn't really mean much, when said patch content made people wish said patch didn't exist in the first place.
    SL had more content and more to do.
    Gameplay wise except the need to grind choregast it was fine. I enjoyed M+ and raids in SL.

    WoD basically had nothing to do and garrisons were terribly implemented. Not to mention all that was promised for the expansion that just never came to fruition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  18. #66238
    I enjoyed Nathria and overall I thought the M+ dungeons were better. But that's about the extent of the nice things I can say about SL.

    The lore was insulting, Korthia was just a pure steaming pile and shards of domination might have been the worst design decision ever made.

  19. #66239
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    Both were terrible.
    I'd argue that SL was worse because it was an actively destructive influence on the franchise.

    Whereas WoD was primarily just forgetable and boring.

    SL having had more patches then doesn't really mean much, when said patch content made people wish said patch didn't exist in the first place.
    I see we are doing the same thing again. Just like with WoD, people now treat SL as some kind of a traumatic experience that mentally scarred them for life, when in reality, it was simply a weak expansion. It still had great things like raids (mostly CN) and dungeons, but some people can't seem to look past Covs and Korthia (which grind was btw so much faster than abything in BfA).
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2024-04-14 at 08:53 PM.
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  20. #66240
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    For me what DF did best was systems. And after multiple expansion in a row where systems made a mess of the game (Legion included), this was such a welcome change. The talent system, reward system and not M+ changes are all great changes. Professions need a lot of work but they are on the right track and more importantly they managed to make the code changes they needed to get them to work.
    Yup - and sometimes backend things are better for the game then having more numbers of stuff. Everyone is complaining about Hero Talents, but nobody seems to understand that 1-2 more rows of talents as they stand are gonna create insane power creep which is what they had to avoid in regards to Mists.

    Old games with lots of backlog can get real messy.

    I do hope they do some extended Delve testing at the start similar to what they did with Torghast in SL. That's the big unknown for TWW
    And I hope they don't take the absolute wrong lessons away from said testing, like what they did with Torghast. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I see we are doing the same thing again. Just like with WoD, people now treat SL as some kind of a traumatic experience that mentally scarred them for life, when in reality, it was simply a weak expansion. It still had great things like raids (mostly CN) and dungeons, but some people can't seem to look past Covs and Korthia (which grind was btw so much faster than abything in BfA).
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I truly am not doing the 2008-angry-reviewer style hyperbole.

    It was really, really that bad. Even if 9.2 was serviceable overall as a zone and full of content and mounts to craft and whatever, it doesn't change how much of a bad taste everything else still left, including the issues in 9.2 anyway in terms of the overall vibe and contentiousness of its lore/setting.

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