1. #71881
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    That is the story blurb just after the introduction quests. Do you really believe that a twist, like that the song is not from azeroth, will be revealed then? At earliest it will happen after the Hallowfall storyline. But given that the focus of the first raid is on the nerubians, it will be either part of the max level campaign, or for the first major patch after launch.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

    Westfall, Hope is in reality Vanessa Van Cleef

    Muradin survived the betrayal of Arthas.

    Illidan survived!

    Kael'thas returning after Tempest Keep to defile the Sunwell to summon Kil'jaeden.

    There mus always be a Lich King!

    BfA was totally a old god expansion with a veneer of faction conflict.

    Iridikorn not being the actual big bad of DF but Fyrak.

    The list can go on and on. That the radiant song is not actually Azeroth is a classic plot twist that would fit into the upcoming narrative of Void versus Light.
    You're basically so wrong, even with the evidence slapped in your face. It's funny watching you try to prove some absolutely null and wrong point.

  2. #71882
    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    A cool story would be the void conquering most of azeroth after midnight and the Titans coming back to try to remove old gods again like they did in the past, remaking azeroth in the process and thus wiping all life. More than killing them, our actions against their will should convince them to let the mortals take care of the problem.
    This is literally my guess for the TLT ending.

    The Titans being capital E evil alignment isn't in the cards, but them being a cold and unfeeling collective of manipulators or bureaucrats trying to guide the planet the way they want regardless of its inhabitants is literally verbatim what they have been, "muh millennial subversion" be damned Val, and everyone seems to have forgotten that.

  3. #71883
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    It's a valid use of a device, it's just immensely weird someone didn't call it from at least relatively early on. Kinda makes the characters look like dummies. We got an actual shaman, albeit nerfed, the brightest mage of her generation, another brilliant mage among one of the best in his generation, a former speaker of Azeroth, aaaaand Anduin who I guess wouldn't have reason to know or care.

    Someone really should've had at least an inkling. Kinda makes our heroes look like even bigger dummies than usual.
    Anduin was in the room when Magni explained to everyone that azerite came from the planet and the planet had a soul. He was inhabited by the Bald Man who's entire plan hinged on this factoid. Thrall not knowing is dumb because he's a shaman, but Blizzard don't give a rat's ass about shamans, whereas Our Treasure not knowing it is just bizarre. It isn't actually a mark against the story in so far as we find out in the first five minutes, but it's just a weird choice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    This is literally my guess for the TLT ending.

    The Titans being capital E evil alignment isn't in the cards, but them being a cold and unfeeling collective of manipulators trying to guide the planet the way they want regardless of its inhabitants is literally verbatim what they have been, "muh millennial subversion" be damned, and everyone seems to have forgotten that.
    The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal. There is a case to be made that making the Light an iffy force rather than a force that can be used for an iffy cause is grasping at straws (it isn't, but it can be made), but the only Titan portrayals that didn't leave room for them to be an antagonistic force are also their very worst ones.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2024-05-25 at 06:53 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  4. #71884
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    A cool story would be the void conquering most of azeroth after midnight and the Titans coming back to try to remove old gods again like they did in the past, remaking azeroth in the process and thus wiping all life. More than killing them, our actions against their will should convince them to let the mortals take care of the problem.
    Problem is, this was already done. We have defeated and killed Old Gods where Titans safely couldn't, we changed Algalons mind and stopped re-origination, we saved Pantheon, teamed up with them and kicked Legions ass (a massive feat they wholeheartedly acknowledged and were thankful for). Titans suddenly appearing and trying to wipe Azeroth clean, even if that would seems to them as the only way, would be superbly jarring.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  5. #71885
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Problem is, this was already done. We have defeated and killed Old Gods where Titans couldn't, we changed Algalons mind and stopped re-origination, we saved Pantheon, teamed up with them and kicked Legions ass (a massive feat they wholeheartedly acknowledged and were thankful for). Titans suddenly appearing and trying to wipe Azeroth clean, even if that would seems to them as the only way, would be superbly jarring.
    It would be incoherent with the Legion portrayal, but the Legion portrayal sucked dick, so if nixing it is the price to be paid for having an expansion with robots with an Ulduar aesthetic as the primary enemy group then fair enough. We should never have been on a first name basis with the Titans.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #71886
    Legion titans were just saved from the shivarra and other stuff (aggramar, Eonar), they barely had time to plan other stuff than what ended up happenning. They could see the midnight defeat against the void as proof we're not good enough, or be desperate to stop the void from reaching the world soul.

  7. #71887
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It would be incoherent with the Legion portrayal, but the Legion portrayal sucked dick, so if nixing it is the price to be paid for having an expansion with robots with an Ulduar aesthetic as the primary enemy group then fair enough. We should never have been on a first name basis with the Titans.
    Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    Legion titans were just saved from the shivarra and other stuff (aggramar, Eonar), they barely had time to plan other stuff than what ended up happenning. They could see the midnight defeat against the void as proof we're not good enough, or be desperate to stop the void from reaching the world soul.
    Again, suddenly deeming us "not good enough" after all those times we were more than good enough would be dumb af. But hey, expansion seems to be about Titans, so dunno.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  8. #71888
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal.
    Anduin's just really stupid, then. Or too trapped in self loathing to notice.

    Even then regarding Titans, I will play devil's advocate that they were in a charitable mood both potentially having heard about a recent Reply Code Alpha and also weren't really in a position to be domineering while needing that time to assist with Argus and seal Sargeras.

    Us failing partially in Midnight and them not having any confidence in us or a nascent Azeroth feels pretty in character even after Legion.

  9. #71889
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.
    You didn't, you had written every confrontation with the Legion without it. In fact, you had to retcon yourself because you had killed the Pantheon off-screen in Chronicle. You specifically had to write the scenario where the Pantheon were not only actually alive, but kind grandfatherly figures setting up unique MacGuffins that could be combined to seal the tomb rather than apply their introduced contingencies of glassing the planet. It's only in Legion that we can freely talk to them and they are cast as essentially human figures. It's also what, until Dragonflight backed down on this characterization, caused the problem of having effectively solved the setting of having no higher instance to appeal to, hence Blizz creating the First Ones to serve as Ersatz gods.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  10. #71890
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The titan characterization is as old as Wrath and the only times it hasn't been the case is when the Titans have been blando conversational benevolent gods in Legion, e.g. their worst portrayal. There is a case to be made that making the Light an iffy force rather than a force that can be used for an iffy cause is grasping at straws (it isn't, but it can be made), but the only Titan portrayals that didn't leave room for them to be an antagonistic force are also their very worst ones.
    I mean even then we were saving their asses from Sargeras while they were at the nadir of their power so they had no reason to present themselves as anything different. Someone can present themselves like that and still be willing to wipe your entire planet after. Heck if the Titans are actually remorseful for wiping out people but still do it because they believe it is for the greater good, it would be even more striking than making them cold and unfeeling; a caring utilitarian that cries while killing you for the greater good is far more unnerving.

  11. #71891
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Even then regarding Titans, I will play devil's advocate that they were in a charitable mood both potentially having heard about a recent Reply Code Alpha and also weren't really in a position to be domineering while needing that time to assist with Argus and seal Sargeras.

    Us failing partially in Midnight and them not having any confidence in us or a nascent Azeroth feels pretty in character even after Legion.
    Oh, you can write around it. I think that's a feasible way to go by it and wouldn't really contradict anything. My criticism is more for the Legion portrayal as such and the place it penned the writers in.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #71892
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Ye well, and I think their portrayal was fine, given we just saved their asses. You wanna deal with Legion and Sarg, you gotta have Pantheon involved in a helpful way.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, suddenly deeming us "not good enough" after all those times we were more than good enough would be dumb af. But hey, expansion seems to be about Titans, so dunno.
    We've seen way dumber stuff recently anyways. Better to stay consistent with titans instead of "they really were evil since the begginning and are behind everything!!"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Oh, you can write around it. I think that's a feasible way to go by it and wouldn't really contradict anything. My criticism is more for the Legion portrayal as such and the place it penned the writers in.
    I think the main problem with Legion is that the Titans suddenly appeared in the story out of nowhere inside a single raid, they could have built up that during the expansion and not just in the chronicles book. We were told sice vanilla that the titans were gone and their lore was very scatrered. I wasn't oo informed of their lore even if their names appeared on the legion's mcguffins. I kinda forgot about their particular names and powers since vanilla+ulduar.

  13. #71893
    Quote Originally Posted by allegrian View Post
    I think the main problem with Legion is that the Titans suddenly appeared in the story out of nowhere inside a single raid, they could have built up that during the expansion and not just in the chronicles book. We were told sice vanilla that the titans were gone and their lore was very scatrered. I wasn't oo informed of their lore even if their names appeared on the legion's mcguffins. I kinda forgot about their particular names and powers since vanilla+ulduar.
    Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.

  14. #71894
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Imagine having an overarching end game campaign that is about the Legion trying to siphon the parts of the Titan's souls that were send on Azeroth. You could have used the Warrior campaign with Odyn and made it available to everyone with the Legion trying to kidnap the Keepers in order to get those Titan essences. Maybe they would have gotten at Tyr's grave first and grabbed Aggramar explaining how they managed to corrupt him so fast. And ofc that would explain why Wrathion was nowhere; he'd been abducted to grab Aman'thul out of him and we could have found him in a cell in Antorus.
    It may be a classic problem of them not having the full expansion story thought out at release, I hope the world soul saga shows much more planning and consistency in its story.

  15. #71895
    Brewmaster Enrif's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,492
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    ...? The perspective is third person omniscient. If it were meant to be inaccurate or ambiguous, the verbage would be "Magni believes that it may be Azeroth" or something to that effect.
    You are obviously wrong. Just let me post something like that:

    https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...0pwhwm0v41.png

    Guess we work with Denthrius against people like Dreven and the Accuser. Guess what, didn't happend. The log is always only showing the knowledge your character knows at the moment. There is no "third person omniscient". It is always in person view.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    The thing is, most of these are transparent as fuck or don't hold up to logic and were created for shock value, not with any actual grace.
    They are not. You conflate your experience doing it back then, with what you knew after the fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    You're basically so wrong, even with the evidence slapped in your face. It's funny watching you try to prove some absolutely null and wrong point.
    glad to entertain you. But i don't get what you get from your glee and vitriol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If we somehow do get a void Hunter class, I’ll be the first one to post in this thread to admit my error.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    I mean, trying to worm out of the way it's the WORLDSOUL saga... yah. It's Azeroth reaching out, not some light fairy.

  16. #71896
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Not sure about you, but I prefer when setting and story is not about white vs black.
    To be fair, while I disagree with some of the original comment, the main issue is that it sometimes boils down with younger writers to making the guys who look bad good and vice-versa with some heavy-handed "religion bad" nonsense usually attached to it. Just doing the opposite of what would intuitively seem right in a '70s fantasy novel does not a true Michael Moorcock make.

    Similarly, trying to apply moral grayness to metaphysical forces of good like the Light seems a bit unnecessary and just diminishes said force. It'd be like trying to make Plato's Form of the Good subject to moral scrutiny when the entire point is that it's supposed to be the overarching standard all goodness is measured against.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2024-05-25 at 07:46 PM.
    "We will soon be in a world in which a man may be howled down for saying that two and two make four."
    — G.K. Chesterton

    You'll believe it when you see it for yourself.

  17. #71897
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post
    You are obviously wrong. Just let me post something like that:

    https://www.reddit.com/media?url=htt...0pwhwm0v41.png

    Guess we work with Denthrius against people like Dreven and the Accuser. Guess what, didn't happend. The log is always only showing the knowledge your character knows at the moment. There is no "third person omniscient". It is always in person view.
    Except this is correct for the point at which you have completed.

    Sire Denathrius did dispatch you to deal with the defiant forces of the Accuser. He did, and they are defiant. That's a factual statement. The accommodated information later changes your perspective on Denathrius and his intentions, but none of them contradict it.

    They are not. You conflate your experience doing it back then, with what you knew after the fact.

    I've been here for almost 20 years. You can literally go back to Wrath era if you want to put in the time. It's documented.

    Almost everyone knew at the time. They were obvious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    To be fair, while I disagree with some of the original comment, the main issue is that it sometimes boils down with the new wave of writers to making the guys who look bad good and vice-versa with some heavy-handed "religion bad" nonsense usually attached to it.
    This is so "old man," or in the case of Val, "pretentious young man, trying to appear an old soul, yells at cloud."

    The amount of good Light and bad Void examples are disproportionate in the setting, even recently. For every Xe'ra, who isn't even actively antagonistic, you still have Anduin being a perfect paragon of virtue who is predominantly Light oriented and is held up as its champion.

    We're gonna have outliers like the Arathi or the Void Elves, but this isn't a "there's precisely no difference between good things and bad things" meme or insane Nagito logic, it's just having a variety of stuff to kill.

  18. #71898
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post

    This is so "old man," or in the case of Val, "pretentious young man, trying to appear an old soul, yells at cloud."

    The amount of good Light and bad Void examples are disproportionate in the setting, even recently. For every Xe'ra, who isn't even actively antagonistic, you still have Anduin being a perfect paragon of virtue who is predominantly Light oriented and is held up as its champion.

    We're gonna have outliers like the Arathi or the Void Elves, but this isn't a "there's precisely no difference between good things and bad things" meme or insane Nagito logic, it's just having a variety of stuff to kill.
    Some people at least on this site (I don't really follow many WoW places tbh) insist that Light itself is evil which just . . . makes little sense.

  19. #71899
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Streets Strange by Moonlight
    Posts
    8,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Some people at least on this site (I don't really follow many WoW places tbh) insist that Light itself is evil which just . . . makes little sense.
    Kind dumb, when it's obvious Light is mostly like a SW Force, a tool for w/e you wanna do. Like, if Light is evil, then wtf Void and Fel are?
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  20. #71900
    Quote Originally Posted by Enrif View Post


    The thing is, blizzard does plot twists. They always did. Doesn't matter if they are done good or bad.

    Westfall, Hope is in reality Vanessa Van Cleef

    Muradin survived the betrayal of Arthas.

    Illidan survived!

    Kael'thas returning after Tempest Keep to defile the Sunwell to summon Kil'jaeden.

    There mus always be a Lich King!

    BfA was totally a old god expansion with a veneer of faction conflict.

    Iridikorn not being the actual big bad of DF but Fyrak.

    The list can go on and on. That the radiant song is not actually Azeroth is a classic plot twist that would fit into the upcoming narrative of Void versus Light.
    Most of these are retcons played as a mystery, not planted plot twists. So it would be more like if after the world soul saga they suddenly decide "actually the world soul is silly, the radiant song was actually Sargeras shouting from his prison an AU jailer"
    Last edited by Samin; 2024-05-25 at 08:34 PM.
    Samin
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashrana View Post
    So, what would be your reaction, if you found out, that come cata release first patch, blizzard were planning to kill everyone by sending a bear through the mail?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •