1. #71941
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Not even losely. Argus' story has no twists. It's straightforward. It has some surprises, but nothing that goes against prior expectations.

    And some seem to have forgotten that taking out Argus is basically the whole point of the Antorus raid from the beginning. That's why we even went there in the first place. The twist is us encountering the Pantheon and rescuing them, not Argus.
    The presence of a world soul and Sargeras utilizing one is such a hard left relative to the rest of the expansion, especially given it contradicts what we were told surrounding his motivations in Chronicle Vol. 1, even before they established it as a Watsonian text.

    I'll grant you, twist is probably the wrong term, but I'd argue it wasn't foreshadowed in any capacity prior to 7.3. Argus itself as a location obviously was.

    That being said, the start of the conversation was to establish Blizzard doesn't generally drop a lot of twists in WoW and typically doesn't alter things like UI or subtitle information we're given as a deliberate lie, and either way that's one less in the bucket.

  2. #71942
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Argus, the headquarters of BL, was the last minute addition in expansion that was meant to finally deal with BL?
    Yes, it was. The original plan for patch content was going to be Suramar - Thal’Dranath - Broken Shore.

    Thal’Dranath was announced at launch as an island to the south of the Broken Isles at launch that would be visited as patch content.

    Prior to Blizzcon, Thal’Dranath was scrapped with Blizzard stating that we were already visiting too many Elven ruins themed islands, so they were replacing Thal’Dranath with something in their words were to be “much cooler”.

    At Blizzcon, it was announced we would be visiting Argus in the final patch. Thal’Dranath was then amalgamated into the Broken Shore instead, with Thal’Dranath being changed to be the Broken Shore’s actual name.


  3. #71943
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    At Blizzcon, it was announced we would be visiting Argus in the final patch. Thal’Dranath was then amalgamated into the Broken Shore instead, with Thal’Dranath being changed to be the Broken Shore’s actual name.
    Yup. This kinda fits with the idea that we get insta-gibbed by what's implied to be Sargeras' presence in the opening scenario if you get too close to the Tomb entrance, despite there being no such threat even before we seal it in the raid. Yeah, some of that is to make in-universe concrete the idea of things being off limits, but the flavor text is very ominous. The Tomb rift was hyped to hell in contrast to what it ended up ultimately being.

    It was probably the right call, ultimately, even though I don't think anyone would call the Broken Shore in its incarnation as a second zone particularly great, what with the scrapped class hall world quests and the like. But it is certainly much cooler than having to go through more elven ruins.

    This is further supported by the scrapped Legion themed dungeon that sure looks like it could have been the original Argus plan.

  4. #71944
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Yup. This kinda fits with the idea that we get insta-gibbed by what's implied to be Sargeras' presence in the opening scenario if you get too close to the Tomb entrance, despite there being no such threat even before we seal it in the raid. Yeah, some of that is to make in-universe concrete the idea of things being off limits, but the flavor text is very ominous. The Tomb rift was hyped to hell in contrast to what it ended up ultimately being.

    It was probably the right call, ultimately, even though I don't think anyone would call the Broken Shore in its incarnation as a second zone particularly great, what with the scrapped class hall world quests and the like. But it is certainly much cooler than having to go through more elven ruins.

    This is further supported by the scrapped Legion themed dungeon that sure looks like it could have been the original Argus plan.
    Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.

    Also every time someone posts a Hayven video I get so sad One of the best WoW content creators. No drama, no clickbait, just great videos with proper editing.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2024-05-26 at 02:43 PM.

  5. #71945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.
    I think that may have been the original plan if WoD worked out - they initially stated they want to do shorter expansions back than, and WoD-Legion-Argus would have made a great saga trilogy, ngl. But WoD's big problems - content draught, only 2 raid tiers aswell as "orc fatigue" basically killed the idea of short expansions with a similiar theme back than. Fun to think that's exactly what we will get with WSS - shorter expansions and void in atleast 2 out of 3 of them.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  6. #71946
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Tbh having the Avatar of Sargeras be the final boss of Legion and then following it up with an Argus expac would work. Light knows Avatar was hard enough to be an expansion endboss.
    Tomb of Soakgeras was a nightmare.

    That being said, it looks like it was intended from that for Argus to just be a dungeon and raid based on that datamining...? With the Tomb itself being a portal from Argus proper rather than what it eventually was, which explains why the vanguard poured directly from it...? Hard to say. All speculation.

  7. #71947
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    True but I always try to think of how someone would see things in game if they had not seen any supplementary material.
    Like imagine playing Legion but with no knowledge of the Chronicle (which it effectively retconned which is hilarious in retrospect)

    The fact that Chronicles released a few months before Legion, and that they couldnt even keep it consistent with that one expansion, is still so fckn funny.

    "HERES OUR DEFINITIVE LORE GUIDE.....wait, we need to end the current xpac somehow....IGNORE THAT SHIT IMMEDIATELY"
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  8. #71948
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    The fact that Chronicles released a few months before Legion, and that they couldnt even keep it consistent with that one expansion, is still so fckn funny.

    "HERES OUR DEFINITIVE LORE GUIDE.....wait, we need to end the current xpac somehow....IGNORE THAT SHIT IMMEDIATELY"
    "...also it's the Titans' perspective."
    "But this has things that don't work with what the Titans would know and believe. And also it says the world of Warcraft in the first chap---"
    "TITANS'. PERSPECTIVE."

  9. #71949
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Tomb of Soakgeras was a nightmare.

    That being said, it looks like it was intended from that for Argus to just be a dungeon and raid based on that datamining...? With the Tomb itself being a portal from Argus proper rather than what it eventually was, which explains why the vanguard poured directly from it...? Hard to say. All speculation.
    I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.

  10. #71950
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.
    I agree, feels like a missed opportunity on the whole. At the very least, I believe that 7.3 is the biggest patch we've had to date, but I could easily be wrong.

  11. #71951
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I agree, feels like a missed opportunity on the whole. At the very least, I believe that 7.3 is the biggest patch we've had to date, but I could easily be wrong.
    It did feel massive and I personally enjoyed it a ton (Antoran Wastes with a strong character gave amazing Demonslayer power fantasy.)

  12. #71952
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.
    Oh people would have grown bored of Black and fel green pretty quickly.

  13. #71953
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Necron was much, much worse. It literally only shows up after what should have been the final boss with no explanation whatsoever and then poofs back out of the story immediately after. It's just one extra fight that has no business being there.

    Argus at least had an actual story presence, even if it was just in the last patch of Legion. We know it is there before we face it, we have a reason to do so and unlike Sargeras, we wouldn't just be fighting his little toe.
    I think of Necron like I think of Kaguya. She had no business being the final boss. There were some small hints sure, but Madera definitely should have been the final boss. I actually don't think Argus as the final boss is bad at all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Imo there will be less Void in Last Titan than Orcs in Legion. I think defeating Void in 12.2 will be signal for Titans to start whatever they planned and they will be our enemy in 13.0.
    I think its going to be a titan war. Few of them vs a few of the others and us. Aman'thul definitely has final boss vibes to me. Tyr will be our best friend during the expansion, and the main villain of the first raid will be Odyn.

  14. #71954
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Oh people would have grown bored of Black and fel green pretty quickly.
    I think that's major reason why Argus wasn't an expansion. Yes, sure, there was Mc'aree (or whatever it's name now) to alleviate the visual boredom but realistically there's only so much you can do with a Fel blasted hellscape. I guess you could just port us to other worlds to remedy that somewhat but then that brings its own problems of the expansion lacking direction and grounding, kinda like Shadowlands did.
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  15. #71955
    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Oh people would have grown bored of Black and fel green pretty quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I think that's major reason why Argus wasn't an expansion. Yes, sure, there was Mc'aree (or whatever it's name now) to alleviate the visual boredom but realistically there's only so much you can do with a Fel blasted hellscape. I guess you could just port us to other worlds to remedy that somewhat but then that brings its own problems of the expansion lacking direction and grounding, kinda like Shadowlands did.
    Here me out
    Legion ends at Tomb with Illidan opening the Argus portal. Pre-expansion event is Legion invasions Redux with even more zones. Storyline has Velen reach out to A'dal who brings Tempest Keep to Azeroth. We use Tempest Keep to get to Argus and it serves as the expansion capital
    First zone is a combination of Antoran Wastes and Krokuun. Army of Light has a massive encampment trying to gain back the Xenedar which is the first dungeon. The reason the Krokul still exist is sustainable soul farming (the Eredar just allow them to be around in case they need more souls for their engines so they never fully cull them). Brox is alive and he is the Krokul war leader cause the orcs need SOME engagement in this xpac! At end of zone storyline we reunite X'era inside Tempest Keep, Illidan kills her. We get A'dal to tell us how this is not their way and what X'era did was wrong.
    Second zone is Eredath. Instead of killing the Void Ethereals we ally with them (they betray us in a patch).
    Third zone is the Halls of the Boundless Reach, the place with Portal Keeper Hazabel. instead of being in Antorus it becomes a small zone in its own floating shard of Argus. We have the full might of the Light and Void assisting us in attacking the Legion there so we can cut down reinforcements. This is more of a leveling scenario than a zone proper, Tempest Keep will also move to this area once we secure it.
    This unlocks the rest of the expansion zones; Xoroth and Rancora. Xoroth will be a firelands-like zone and Rancora is a jungle so they look quite different to Antoran Wastes. As expansion content we unlock the ruins of Nathreza (which I guess would look like Revendreth?) and a massive Eredar city with Suramar like mechanics that would look like a lush paradise beneath a massive Echodome like the ones ethereals use in Netherstorm; think Shattrath but in red, gold and black, the Sargerai colors.

    Invasion points can be an expansion mechanic like Island Expeditions where we use the Halls to reach Legion worlds for resources (and maybe an ally or two). KJ is still alive and I'd have Velen's wife be the main expac villain having replaced him as a Triumvir. Raids would be an entry tier with two small raid locations in Rancora and Xoroth, then the Citadel of the Nathrezim in Nathreza, the new Palace of the Triumvirate and finally Antorus. Antorus would not be demons except for Shivara, it will all be Sargeras' keepers and constellar.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2024-05-26 at 03:33 PM.

  16. #71956
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I just think you could have done Argus plus some single zones in different Legion planets and have a very meaty expac.
    I think there’s a good chance that was originally the plan for an Argus expansion following Legion. If you look at some of the invasion point planets, some of them seemed completely unique.

    I think it’s likely we were to get what we did of Argus in Legion, as well as those planets we saw in the invasion points as fully fledged zones. It’s like everything that was planned for an Argus expansion was chopped up and put into the Argus patch.

  17. #71957
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    I think we can call Bronze experiment - currency both for cosmetic and power items - as big failure. People just buy mounts ASAP before thinking and then complain how 'broken' and 'overtuned' content is - while intended way of playing Remix is clearly upgrading gear, being OP and then farm bronze for cosmetic.

    In future Remix they just need to implement 2 curriencies that drop evenly - and way to transfer power currency to cosmetic one when you reach height of your power. People just need holding hand.

  18. #71958
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    I think we can call Bronze experiment - currency both for cosmetic and power items - as big failure. People just buy mounts ASAP before thinking and then complain how 'broken' and 'overtuned' content is - while intended way of playing Remix is clearly upgrading gear, being OP and then farm bronze for cosmetic.

    In future Remix they just need to implement 2 curriencies that drop evenly - and way to transfer power currency to cosmetic one when you reach height of your power. People just need holding hand.
    "People are idiots" is not a failure of the game mode.

  19. #71959
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    "People are idiots" is not a failure of the game mode.
    You still need to communicate the design better then.

    E.g. you could have had the mogs and other items gated behind specific achievements that effectively force you to complete content (And thus force you to spend bronze).

  20. #71960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    You still need to communicate the design better then.

    E.g. you could have had the mogs and other items gated behind specific achievements that effectively force you to complete content (And thus force you to spend bronze).
    Either open cosmetic vendors when people get to really comfortable item level (around 400 for main pieces) and get taste of system or make 2 currencies.

    Now we don't even have tutorial, people see vendor with shiny mog/mount for 5k and next to him gear upgrade where they see 21/35 135000 for single item. Instead telling us gear is important, it sends opposite message.

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    "People are idiots" is not a failure of the game mode.
    I didn't say they are idiots, just they didn't plan ahead. Most people don't play carefully movies in ultra casual mode for casual game.

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