1. #7221
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm sure Anduin would disagree with that, and well the top of Icecrown Lich Kingless atm. Zovaal has had a pretty big influence on Azeroth.
    Anduin is one person. You cannot compare that to the countless damage the Legion had done.

  2. #7222
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm sure Anduin would disagree with that, and well the top of Icecrown Lich Kingless atm. Zovaal has had a pretty big influence on Azeroth.
    Weird I go to Icecrown and it’s exactly the same as it was before SL.
    The “rampant scourge” isn’t even a major issue after the prepatch so having a Lich King was clearly pointless.

    Also, two people getting bullied ≠ the planet getting stabbed.
    Hell, you even have some elemental NPCs still referencing Sargeras stabbing the planet in DF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  3. #7223
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Sargeras was trying to corrupt Azeroth during the Argus fight, he failed and was forced to stab her, which didn't even do much lol.

    He tried to use Argus against us. It failed and his soul was actually used to better Zovaals plan in deactivating the Arbiter, hence shutting down the machine of Death.

    Sargeras and his Legion nearly corrupted the Titans, which failed and resulted in them being more united than ever, namely due to our aid.

    Also, isn't Azeroth literally healing right now? Pretty sure the corruption wasn't much lol.

    Meanwhile, let's look at Zovaal, and his "stuff".

    The shutting down of the Arbiter: Done VIA Argus' world soul, resulting in all the souls coming into the Maw, which results in more power for the Jailer.

    Gaining all the Covenant sigils in like...a patch: Done via Dominating Anduin, and going about different area and siphoning said sigils either from the Eternal Ones or another thing (Like the Heart of the Forests center area).

    Gaining access to the Sepulcher: Was done via stealing Roh'kalo, using a massive ass Telescope to claim a piece of Zereth Mortis, where he would gain its access cyphers, etc.

    Oh, and he managed to regain his power via "destroying" the previous Arbiter. He then went out into Zereth Mortis, where he would shut down the Forge of Afterlives and reach the Sepulcher.

    And during our fight against Zovaal, he was smacking Azeroth's soul left and right, was in the process of dominating the Cosmic Forces, and even siphoned much of her life force for himself. Now, he was definitely not successful in his plans, but he was definitely far more successful than Sargeras was...and this is just a single expansion. Hell, some of his plans basically took advantage of Sargeras' failed plans, such as Argus, as well as Azeroth's soul being wounded via the stabbing lmao. And if we assume Sargeras' blades "corruption" was actually Death Magic...then that only really aids Zovaal now, doesn't it? Lol, but we don't know such fully, so I'm not gonna fuck around with that theory.
    I checked out after you said “and even that didn’t do much.”

  4. #7224
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I'm sure Anduin would disagree with that, and well the top of Icecrown Lich Kingless atm. Zovaal has had a pretty big influence on Azeroth.
    Gul'dan, a minion of Sargeras, killed Varian though, and we know that Anduin is traumatized by his father's death. That's why he keeps hallucinating conversations with him. Another minion of Sargeras, Putress, killed Anduin's mentor and adoptive father in Bolvar. Surely Anduin has changed immensely as a result of Sargeras' actions. If Sargeras never invaded Azeroth, Anduin would still be a little prince hiding in his father's shadow.

    As for the absence of the Lich King 1) Lich King Bolvar was dormant anyway, it's not like anything's changed that much, the Scourge has been contained rather rapidly by the mortals and 2) In fairness, the Legion got very close to destroying the Lich King too and was stopped only because Illidan lost the duel with Arthas at the end.

  5. #7225
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Weird I go to Icecrown and it’s exactly the same as it was before SL.
    The “rampant scourge” isn’t even a major issue after the prepatch so having a Lich King was clearly pointless.

    Also, two people getting bullied ≠ the planet getting stabbed.
    Hell, you even have some elemental NPCs still referencing Sargeras stabbing the planet in DF.

    -_- You couldn't go up to the top of Icecrown before SL(Prepatch doesn't count). Secondly in Stormwind Turalyon is sitting on the throne. Guess who was on the throne before SL...Anduin.
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  6. #7226
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Did you not play BfA? That's literally BfA. Azshara was the main threat to Kul Tiras through her puppets Lady Ashvane and Lord Stormsong and was also implied to have dealings with Zul. It was a Seafaring expansion as multiple island chains were introduced as the location of maritime expeditions. The two main questing hubs were large islands in the Great Sea. Pirates were frequent threat in Kul Tiras.

    So you just want a rehash of BfA? With no faction war? Boring!
    I have no idea how or why you equate my explanation what other people mean about a pirate expansion to me actually wanting one. I don't.

    That being said, there are plenty of recently implemented lore tidbits that hint at Azshara's possible return (please don't confuse this with me wanting her to return).

  7. #7227
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    -_- You couldn't go up to the top of Icecrown before SL(Prepatch doesn't count). Secondly in Stormwind Turalyon is sitting on the throne. Guess who was on the throne before SL...Anduin.
    Why is Turalyon being on the throne relevant? The point is, Anduin suffering at the hand of Zovaal isn’t comparable to the damage that Sargeras and the Legion have done.

  8. #7228
    Quote Originally Posted by Frood View Post
    I have no idea how or why you equate my explanation what other people mean about a pirate expansion to me actually wanting one. I don't.

    That being said, there are plenty of recently implemented lore tidbits that hint at Azshara's possible return (please don't confuse this with me wanting her to return).
    I agree that Azshara will return, and her return is inevitable. But Azshara is no longer tied to the oceans of the world of Azeroth, she pursues a higher calling. She has used a Void portal to travel somewhere. When Azshara returns, it is unlikely that the "Great Sea" will be involved. It is much more plausible that Azshara will return for a storyline revolving around the Void.

    But I find a Pirate expansion extremely boring, pirates are not important, they're just criminals. They can work as villains of a dungeon, like Freehold. That's it.

  9. #7229
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    With the right amps and whatnot, we can take on different foes just fine. But without said amps, we'd get demolished
    You really don't get my point; I'm saying that the stakes of the story will become entirely deprived of meaning if he we continuously climb our way up the aforementioned cosmic food chain. If we continue concerning ourselves with perpetual escalation, nothing could potentially be impressive. There's far more to a villain and the stakes of a story than magnitude alone.

  10. #7230
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Icecrown actually isn't the same as it was pre SL. Post SL Icecrown actually has a normal looking skybox now, and not a weird cloud line in the sky.

    Also, 2 people getting bullied doesn't begin to describe what they did for Zovaal across SL. Sylvanas burned Teldrassil, and that plotline is still going on past SL (but now, the Night Elves at least have a new tree growing), and Anduin was a prime suspect in the Realms of Death, as well as the greater Cosmos nearly collapsing.
    Your argument is poor. Sylvanas destroyed Teldrassil? According to Gul'dan, the Legion destroyed 10000 worlds

    Do you think that the destruction of Teldrassil is worse than the destruction of 10000 worlds?

    The Jailer was bound to the Maw for millennia. During that time, the physical cosmos was at the mercy of Sargeras' Legion. His Burning Crusade caused unspeakable destruction to the Cosmos. And, even though Sargeras is imprisoned, his demons remain. Logically, just because the Legion has collapsed, doesn't mean the demons will stop being a blight upon the Cosmos.

    Gul'dan yells: I have seen the end of your pitiful world, Wrynn. You will perish in felfire, like ten thousand worlds before your own. The legion is ENDLESS.

  11. #7231
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Yeah, actions which were the ultimate result of a Cosmic Conspiracy that Zovaal and Denathrius orchestrated. So, you CAN argue that the stuff with the Legion was actually only there to indirectly aid Zovaal's plans, even if Sargeras never knew? Heh...it's funny how irony kicks in, especially when you consider Sargeras was once considered the ultimate "foe", but is now just some toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause he is afraid of the Dark.
    I know that Danuser decided that his OC would be at the head of a multi-millennia-long Cosmic conspiracy. I don't deny that Sargeras was, in a way, a pawn of the Jailer. Mal'ganis literally refers to the Legion as a pawn in SL.

    The point is that Sargeras has certainly caused more damage to the physical universe than the Jailer. The Jailer has the POTENTIAL to reshape the entire Cosmos, but he failed. Sargeras might have failed in his invasion of Azeroth but he still caused the destruction of countless other world. The Jailer, afaik, has never caused the destruction of a world.

    Even though you clearly think that Sargeras was just an inferior pawn of the Jailer, surely you must recognize that Sargeras caused more destruction to the mortals of the Cosmos than the Jailer. At the very least, you should acknowledge that Sargeras did 99% of the dirty work, while the Jailer was afk in the Maw/non-existent in the lore.

  12. #7232
    Stood in the Fire TheRealDavidTwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleEverett View Post
    My personal theory/wish for 11.0 is a scenario I call "Homecoming." This is their big 20th anniversary, 10th expansion, 30th of Warcraft in general. We return to the original continents redesigned as max level content. The actual world may be a bit "smaller" but it's bigger zones. Think Durotar, Barrens, Dustwallow, Thousand Needles, and Tanaris as one big zone. It's set a bit after Dragonflight.

    In the lead up to this, things have gone... wrong in Stormwind. Turalyon has become increasingly strict and focused on the Light. No one knows why until one day Yrel's Army of the Light and her Divine Mother arrive. This alternate Xe'ra is aware of what the mortals of Azeroth did in helping Illidan avoid his destiny and she seeks to convert everyone to prevent such blatant disregard happen again.

    Turalyon's zealotry reinforced by this sets an ultimatum. Become Lightforged or leave. King Greymane leaves and retakes Gilneas as a place of refuge for all humans who do not wish to be remade. The dwarves close off Blackrock Mountain and Jaina breaks off trade relations with Stormwind. During all of this Azshara returns. She offers aid against this alien invasion and promises an army of Naga to both the Horde and the Alliance.

    Both the Horde and the Alliance have faced setbacks from the Army of the Light's invasion. On Kalimdor, Exarch Garrosh appeared and begins to preach to the Orcs and he gains followers despite warnings from the Mag'har. Because of this, they are forced to accept Azshara's aid because they are being pushed back to Orgrimmar and have already lost Stormwind. Everyone knows this aid is coming at a unknown cost, but they are desperate.

    With the Naga's help the forces of Azeroth push back and in a climatic battle above Stormwind, a wounded Xe'ra begins to turn into a void Naaru. This is when the betrayal happens. Azshara, having learned from Locus Walker, absorbs the power of the Dark Prime Naaru and becomes massively empowered. The resulting explosion destroys Stormwind and she leaves.

    In the aftermath, her Naga are abandoned. Some want to search for her, others have come to appreciate the time they've spent with the other people of Azeroth and finally feel their Queen has gone too far. After all this the story proceeds into the void side of the story as we see the plans set in motion by Azshara, Xal'atath, and Locus Walker take shape.

    The key feature of this starting point of course is playable Naga. They'd behave much like Dracthyr do without the ability to fly while in their Naga form. They'll be taught illusion magic by Azshara but it won't be as perfected as hers. Their humanoid illusions will be Night Elves but with fin ears, webbed fingers, and scales. Classes could be all but Paladin, Druid, DK, and Evoker. Give them some special "abilities" and animations for classes that use feet like monk.

    Levelling could be faction specific with Horde dealing with southern Kalimdor and the Alliance with the regions of Stormwind and Khaz Modan. There's plenty of breadcrumbs for dungeons. A Botani empowered Wailing Caverns, a new Black Rock Spire with the rogue Dark Irons trying to rebirth Ragnaros. Patch stories could give us updates on Lordaeron and Northern Kalimdor.

    Of course Dragonriding is enabled and using their new zoning technology, travel between the two continents is achieved by us flying through giant Kirin Tor portals at multiple points along the coasts.

    A lot of these ideas are probably too ambitious, but I really hope for 11.0 we return to the original continents to finally see their story progress. It's been a long time since Cataclysm. The existence of multiple Dalarans show they are fine with the same place existing twice and with Chromie time they don't need to delete the Cata zones. In 12.0 the 11.0 story can become the new levelling story replacing BfA.

    TLDR: Old World revamp, playable Naga, Light vs Void.
    This is an awesome idea. Good stuff

  13. #7233
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Heh...it's funny how irony kicks in, especially when you consider Sargeras was once considered the ultimate "foe", but is now just some toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause he is afraid of the Dark.
    And Zovaal was presented as the ultimate foe for pretty much one xpac, until it was revealed at the end that he was just a grey guy who was afraid of something else.

    Also, Sargeras came * this * close to completely stomping all over Zovaals "plan" (which really was purely based on luck). Zovaal needed Argus to die to knock the Arbiter out, and he needed Azeroths world soul as a battery. If Argus (or anyone before him) killed us, Zovaals entire plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras corrupted Azeroth (which he was in the process of doing during the raid), Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras actually KILLED Azeroth with his last-ditch sword stab, Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked.
    It was pretty much pure luck that everything worke dout for Zovaal the way it did.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

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  14. #7234
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So you forgot about Raszageth (Storm/Wind), Iridikron (Earth) and Vyranoth (Ice/Water) already?
    The zone influence
    How much elemental influence do you run into in the zones themselves

  15. #7235
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    You say luck, I say Zovaal was playing his cards well with the possibilities and whatnot. Regardless, the fact remains in that Sargeras didn't stomp on Zovaal's plans, and the events of the Shadowlands happened the way they did anyway.
    Huh, No, it was pure luck.

    He was also lucky as far as the Old Gods are concerned. He was lucky that the heroes travelled back in time to get the Dragon Soul to destroy Deathwing and prevent the Hour of Twilight; he was lucky that the Heart of Azerite, Magni, and MOTHER snapped the heroes out of N'Zoth's mind-control at the last second. If N'Zoth won, Ny'alotha would have been merged with the Chamber of the Heart (the process had already begun in the final phase of the fight as stated in Encounter journal) and the World-Soul would have fallen to the Void.

    The Jailer couldn't possibly have known for certain that the heroes would defeat Deathwing, Sargeras, and N'Zoth, it was obviously a gamble. Drop the bias, he's not that smart.

    The Jailer was very lucky, he was even lucky that Sylvanas is an idiot who doesn't understand anything. His luck happened to run out in Zereth Mortis.

  16. #7236
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That's old-Blizz.
    This is nu-Blizz. It's fluffy and caters to a younger demographic that doesn't care about events in prior expansions. Horde, Alliance, are jarringly dismissed without any storied reason. But don't I look kewl in my gear...

    11.0, like DF, isn't likely to produce anything that will provoke much thought. It certainly won't resemble much in the way of a coherent story. But I'm sure it'll give some players a chance to show off how well they look in their new fitted armor. ("Is that selfie-camera working?")
    Weird take considering HvA never made sense lorewise and mechanically we should’ve had multiple factions for consistency. Despite this they protested against cross faction but sure as hell doubled down on merging factions into two for “player mechanic” reasons.

    Blizzard was never known for being consistent, and last year’s scandal only proves how their pigheadedness has held back their game for over a decade, both technical and storywise. Player agency will always be a good thing. There’s plenty of single player games out there if you want to be locked into a premade character.

  17. #7237
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Also, this should be the NEWS for Blizzard fan sites this week. Have it share time with D4 release.
    It's been a bit since this was brought up. I initially didn't bother saying the same on account of how recently it happened,—I figured that the news may not have circulated enough and they may have not had any time or the proper incentives to write on it,—but by now you would expect any number of fan sites to draw attention to this occurrence. It's certainly peculiar how neither Wowhead nor MMO-Champion have bothered to mention this at all.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-06-03 at 05:49 PM.

  18. #7238
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Jailer can very much play with the possibility stuff, especially if we're going to assume he's got guys that can help out with said stuff and whatnot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, obviously the true answer is luck, but the LORE answer is likely that Zovaal played with the eventualities and whatnot to further his goals, and knew the waiting game would work in his favor.
    I really wish they had played more into that. Considering he had the ‘loom’ to control fates, among other domination magics, his power was that of probability and predestination. Instead we got bad one-liners.

    Add to that he was ‘created.’ A Death construct, or singularity acting as Arbiter. Unfortunately one powered by ChatGPT.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2023-06-03 at 06:03 PM.

  19. #7239
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    The zone influence
    How much elemental influence do you run into in the zones themselves
    Waking Shores has Fire, Plains prominently feature Wind and the entire eastern half of Azure Span is frozen over. Zaralek is a cave, has lava and is home to the old laboratory of the Earthbinder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    I really wish they had played more into that. Considering he had the ‘loom’ to control fates, among other domination magics, his power was that of probability and predestination. Instead we got bad one-liners.

    Add to that he was ‘created.’ A Death construct, or singularity acting as Arbiter. Unfortunately one powered by ChatGPT.
    Well, we defeat him something like 10 seconds away from wiping out the entire cosmos. Or not, if your damage isn't up to par.

  20. #7240
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    At this point, the Burning Legion is a non-threat. Lacking Sargeras leadership, it is guaranteed to have descended into infighting and accomplishing pretty much nothing.

    Pirates might not be threatening to wipe out the universe, but they'd be a much more immediate and relevant threat than the Legion.
    Denathrius could take over the Legion tbh. His Nathrezim were a core part of the command structure.

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