1. #7241
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Denathrius could take over the Legion tbh. His Nathrezim were a core part of the command structure.
    That is what I have been suggesting for awhile. It would continue Denathrius's story and he can get a new look and get revenge on Azeroth for interfering with him and...a "Return of the Legion" kinda vibe. Not that they'd do that though.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  2. #7242
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Denathrius could take over the Legion tbh. His Nathrezim were a core part of the command structure.
    Maybe. I think he lacks the raw power needed to make the Demons respect him, though. He'd probably have better luck with the Void.

    Of course, he could also start up a band of space pirates.

  3. #7243
    I see Denathrius and Azshara both as potentially serving a yet unseen theoretical 7th force.

    For Denathrius it makes sense because this Nathrezim have been able to infiltrate the ranks of more than just one cosmic force.

    For Azshara its within character. She sees herself as the equal as whoever if the most powerful at the time. She went from Queen to Empress. So what's the next step for her? A bonafide goddess?

  4. #7244
    Would you guys prefer that Blizz add a new row of talents to the talent tree in the next xpac, or that Blizz just gives us 10 extra points to our current trees (with obviously there being some tweaks/reworks to existing talents, with maybe a talent or two added to some specs to add more balance/variety ofc)?

    I’d prefer the latter.

  5. #7245
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    Would you guys prefer that Blizz add a new row of talents to the talent tree in the next xpac, or that Blizz just gives us 10 extra points to our current trees (with obviously there being some tweaks/reworks to existing talents, with maybe a talent or two added to some specs to add more balance/variety ofc)?

    I’d prefer the latter.
    Add an extra row

  6. #7246
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Huh, No, it was pure luck.

    He was also lucky as far as the Old Gods are concerned. He was lucky that the heroes travelled back in time to get the Dragon Soul to destroy Deathwing and prevent the Hour of Twilight; he was lucky that the Heart of Azerite, Magni, and MOTHER snapped the heroes out of N'Zoth's mind-control at the last second. If N'Zoth won, Ny'alotha would have been merged with the Chamber of the Heart (the process had already begun in the final phase of the fight as stated in Encounter journal) and the World-Soul would have fallen to the Void.

    The Jailer couldn't possibly have known for certain that the heroes would defeat Deathwing, Sargeras, and N'Zoth, it was obviously a gamble. Drop the bias, he's not that smart.

    The Jailer was very lucky, he was even lucky that Sylvanas is an idiot who doesn't understand anything. His luck happened to run out in Zereth Mortis.
    Related to your point, another frustrating thing about the jailer, aside from everything else.. his characterization could have been adjusted slightly and greatly improved the story (imo).

    I have no idea why they tried to make him a "master planner" who arranged a perfect -nearly impossible to believe- sequence of events. Planning meticulous sequences of events seems more in-line with the void or the light, which both care a great deal about shaping the flow of events.

    Death doesn't have to plan for anything to achieve its goal, all death has to do is wait. We all die someday.

    Cut the convoluted story beats and retconning. Make the jailer a very simple villain: He has waited and grown more powerful over the decades that we have been funneling mortal souls into the SL with our seemingly bottomless appetite for war. Now he's able to pierce the veil and directly attack Azeroth, to do whatever it was he wanted to do with the world soul.

  7. #7247
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Zovaal did wait, he was waiting the whole time. He just had agents bring about a conspiracy so he could further set out his influence. He was waiting the whole time beyond that, however.

    As for the Anima stuff, idk if you realize this, but only the worst of the worst souls go the Maw, and if it wasn't bad enough, Azeroth is just 1 planet in the infinite beyond. The amount of Anima that would go to Zovaal would be akin to 1/100ths a droplet of water for the Banished One.

    So no, that alternative wouldn't have helped...at all.
    Nah I still disagree. He did wait, but he waited for his carefully orchested plan to bear fruit. The emphasis in the game is on how many pieces he put into place, how many events he was behind.

    I think blizzard probably did consider his patience as a key part of his character, like you said - he does wait. But the convoluted plans don't work at all with this characterization.

    And the "azeroth is one planet" stuff is whatever. The jailer already said souls from azeroth have the most "will", or whatever the exact quote is. It's clear azeroth is special.

    Edit - my point being that he doesn't even have to make these grandiose plans, regardless of how long he waits for them to pan out. That doesn't fit the characterization of death. It fits the void/light/order.

  8. #7248
    i hate coming in here now i never see anything patch related anymore lol its always the same people talking about lore an random shit unrelated to the patch feels bad zzzz

  9. #7249
    pirates and elements theme? no way. Its cosmic next time babe

  10. #7250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeram View Post
    i hate coming in here now i never see anything patch related anymore lol its always the same people talking about lore an random shit unrelated to the patch feels bad zzzz
    Here's my speculation for 10.2:

    primalists want to 'unleash' the emerald dream to overwrite our ordered reality. I think the new zone will be the tree area west of ohnaran planes, after the primalists there successfully bring the dream into/over reality. Or we just go into the dream to stop the primalists there

  11. #7251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Did the Jailer say that? I know Azeroth is a world where a lot of things have happened, hence why Anima supplements there are so high, but that's not enough for him to be amped up. Besides, other worlds likely went through a bit also.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And the plans can work with it. Just means Zovaal wanted to establish a clear foundation so that, once he starts taking action, his goals will be easier to reach overall.
    I think in the sylvanas book, based on the wowpedia page. I didn't read sylvanas, so not sure if what wowpedia says is totally accurate:

    He also noticed that out of all the souls he judged, those who came from the world of Azeroth had the greatest potential and strongest wills.[24]

  12. #7252
    I'm surprised people speculate over SL story. It's clearly boring and unrelated

  13. #7253
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    Here's my speculation for 10.2:

    primalists want to 'unleash' the emerald dream to overwrite our ordered reality. I think the new zone will be the tree area west of ohnaran planes, after the primalists there successfully bring the dream into/over reality. Or we just go into the dream to stop the primalists there
    The dream, and the new tree, manifesting on Azeroth is an outcome that we literally helped work towards, and want to happen, and know will happen as per Merithras abd Alex' vision.

    The primalists are the ones that want to invade and destroy it, as they literally did the first time round in the green dragon related quests.
    Iridikron wanting to manifest the dream is also quite contradictory when its a titan-made (at least partially) construct that is anti-thetical to their goal of turning Azeroth back into the primal elemental landscape that it once was and could become again, as we saw in the primalist timeline we visited.


    Formerly known as Arafal

  14. #7254
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    The dream, and the new tree, manifesting on Azeroth is an outcome that we literally helped work towards, and want to happen, and know will happen as per Merithras abd Alex' vision.

    The primalists are the ones that want to invade and destroy it, as they literally did the first time round in the green dragon related quests.
    Iridikron wanting to manifest the dream is also quite contradictory when its a titan-made (at least partially) construct that is anti-thetical to their goal of turning Azeroth back into the primal elemental landscape that it once was and could become again, as we saw in the primalist timeline we visited.
    Oh yeah the titans used it as a blueprint/testing ground or right? Not sure why I forgot that. I had been thinking it was like azeroth pre-titan influence.

    Also, I was unclear whether we (night elves) want the tree to come out of the dream, or whether we want the tree to remain in the dream to become their new home.

  15. #7255
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    Related to your point, another frustrating thing about the jailer, aside from everything else.. his characterization could have been adjusted slightly and greatly improved the story (imo).

    I have no idea why they tried to make him a "master planner" who arranged a perfect -nearly impossible to believe- sequence of events. Planning meticulous sequences of events seems more in-line with the void or the light, which both care a great deal about shaping the flow of events.

    Death doesn't have to plan for anything to achieve its goal, all death has to do is wait. We all die someday.

    Cut the convoluted story beats and retconning. Make the jailer a very simple villain: He has waited and grown more powerful over the decades that we have been funneling mortal souls into the SL with our seemingly bottomless appetite for war. Now he's able to pierce the veil and directly attack Azeroth, to do whatever it was he wanted to do with the world soul.
    The villains in this expansion are much better-written, even if they might be less "ambitious" conceptually. There are no grand 5000 IQ masterplans, no complex "i just wanted to save you!!!" motives; just a bunch of crazy dragons who want to destroy everything. This is much simpler storytelling, but also much more understandable and effective.

    It also helps that the Primate Incarnates are way more unique and original in terms of design and personality than the Jailer.

    The Jailer looks so generic that people literally mistook him for some random NPC when his model was datamined. He certainly looked much more mysterious and menacing in the concept arts and Teaser, when he looked more like Aman'thul: a regal and elegant being who is truly ancient and patient. Not this bald nipple man who looks like a random mob.

    The Primal Incarnates look so much more unique than the Jailer, truly they are a great improvement in terms of design. They might not have a 5000 IQ "omgg i just wanted to save you from what is to come!!!" masterplan, but they look badass and that's all that matters.

    And we see that the Primal Incarnates are objectively better-received by the Community than the Jailer.
    Cut the convoluted story beats and retconning. Make the jailer a very simple villain: He has waited and grown more powerful over the decades that we have been funneling mortal souls into the SL with our seemingly bottomless appetite for war. Now he's able to pierce the veil and directly attack Azeroth, to do whatever it was he wanted to do with the world soul.
    They should have scrapped this horrible villain and made Denathrius the main villain of Shadowlands. Denathrius is ambitious and wants ultimate power, he would have started the anima crisis in order to become the most powerful Eternal One at the expense of the other realms. Denathrius is a simple villain; like Azshara, he's not some misguided "omgg i just wanted to save you all" villain, he just wants pure power.

    Blizzard knows that Denathrius is much more popular and beloved than the Jailer. That's why the Jailer is destroyed, while Denathrius is freed by his underlings. Denathrius could possibly take over the remnants of the Legion through his Nathrezim. Denathrius is ambitious; like Azshara, he seeks ultimate power, he doesn't care about anything else. He will return, but the Jailer will never.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-06-03 at 09:17 PM.

  16. #7256
    Field Marshal Abraxan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Tree is basically staying in the Dream rn to mature, so that once it's ready, it can come back to Azeroth as a fully grown World Tree! One that is blessed by both the Winter Queen and Elune!

    And yeah, the Dream was utilized by beings of Order, namely Freya using G'hanir, to attune Azeroth with it, and create many types of Azerothian Blueprints for experimentation and whatnot.
    Alright then ignore my other post.. Makes sense the primalists would want to destroy it as another example of titan meddling then.

    Do we know what happens definitively in dawn of the infinite? I haven't watched the full dungeon playthrough yet and haven't seen any big posts about it.

    I'm still thinking avaloren will be a full blown expansion and not patch zone, and I think probably just one more major patch 10.3 next year.

  17. #7257
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Making Denathrius the Villain would suck, especially when you consider the fact he was supposed to be a one-off villain lol
    An irrelevant point to bring up, the Primal Incarnates are the main villains of DF and yet they are also "one-off" villains. They will never appear again after this expansion. Raszageth is already destroyed and the other 3 are doomed as they oppose the players. The next expansion will be about concepts that don't have anything to do with Primal Incarnates, such as Light vs. Void or Avaloren.

    Why is it bad to have a self-contained story? We don't need every villain to be the centre-piece of some conspiracy spanning across different expansions... having one-off villains like the Primal Incarnates is good writing.

    Besides, Denathrius will obviously return in the future and it wouldn't even surprise Me if it will happen in 11.0. In addition to this, Denathrius' minions, the Nathrezim, have allegedly infiltrated every Cosmic field; so, even if 11.0 has to do with the Light or the Void (concepts that typically wouldn't be associated to Denathrius), he can still return, along with his Nathrezim puppets.

    And I will tell you more, there is even the possibility that Denathrius will return in Dragonflight, if they make patch about Emerald Dream. Because there is someone in the realm of Life who is treacherous (source of this is Il'gynoth's whispers, which have typically been reliable in many ways), and we know that the Nathrezim sent infiltrator to the realm of Life, so we could see Denathrius' infiltrator/Denathrius himself (a cameo) in Emerald Dream patch.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-06-03 at 10:39 PM.

  18. #7258
    I wonder if the reason why the Green DF area is called the "Shady Sanctuary" is because it will soon become very shady with the new World Tree's branches hanging over it

  19. #7259
    Quote Originally Posted by Eeram View Post
    i hate coming in here now i never see anything patch related anymore lol its always the same people talking about lore an random shit unrelated to the patch feels bad zzzz
    Sometimes there's nothing new to discuss. This is speculation for future patches/expansion. Lore/gameplay all fits under that as far as I can tell.
    It's not people's fault if you come here looking for a topic that's been discussed dozens of pages back. Are people supposed to keep repeating the same thing, or staying silent for your convenience? Like, I don't get it. It's annoying to see people police whatever topic of speculation that some are passionate to discuss, there's mods for that.

    On topic, I hope that, considering it seems almost certain 10.2 will be emerald dream related, we will see Vol'jin back in the story, as a loa, with a new model and some story development. Also, if decay is explored in any meaningful way, which makes sense to me as a contrasting yet related theme to life and the emerald dream, I wish the Forsaken had some role in that, further developing their understanding of decay/undeath and how that may shape their ethos as a society and culture.

  20. #7260
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Sometimes there's nothing new to discuss. This is speculation for future patches/expansion. Lore/gameplay all fits under that as far as I can tell.
    It's not people's fault if you come here looking for a topic that's been discussed dozens of pages back. Are people supposed to keep repeating the same thing, or staying silent for your convenience?
    I do feel as though one contributing factor is that the topics of discussion are not particularly interesting, nor are they particularly disposed to incite passion. I, as such, shall start a conversation which experience confirms will give us many, many pages of discussion for days to come: let's talk about Sylvanas.

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