1. #74761
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Why wouldn’t it? If Blizzard is dedicating an entire patch to it, wouldn’t it occupy the entire zone?



    Based on what exactly?
    Based on never having had a purely Metropolitan zone ever.
    If such a zone was considered by the developers then they probably would have made one by now seeing as they have had more than good enough reasons to make them.
    Even the most urban of zones in WoW, like Revendreth or Thaldraszus still has plenty of areas whee there is only nature.

    Absolute best case scenario for Undermine in that regard is something like Revendreth I would reckon. Where a giant chunk is city, and a bigger chunk are the mines and abandoned cesspits outside.
    Personally, this is why I think Undermine proper will be a raid. It lets the developers go all-in on the theming without having to dedicate an entire zone to it. Maybe something similar to Nazjatar and the Eternal Palace where you go by train from a zone closer to Dorn and all the way to Undermine for the raid entrance.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #74762
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milkmustache View Post
    I personally think there are routes they can take. I've been propping up the idea that there will be some alignment with Gallywix or our antagonistic goblins and Ethereals on a tech scale. The exact plot for them, I'm really up in the air with. Maybe something to do with Azerite or the void creature under Kezan.

    I don't think it will be a solely goblin patch, but I think it'll be a majority goblin patch.

    I know Orwenya and the Harronir are set to take larger roles in this story than we perceive, but I'm reluctant to place them in the 11.1 slot because I think their role will supersede that. I think that the general idea of what a Rootlands patch could be in the 11.1 slot sort of loses focus of how big a deal the Elun'ahir situation is. To me, it seems to be a portion of seeds planeted (harhar) to later be used in TLT as part of the Titan conspiracy, something I think the Light and Elune are directly involved in.

    I guess we could see the Rootlands in some form, maybe more portions of it in other zones, i.e whatever 11.2 ends up being (center of azeroth maybeeee?), but I'm just not convinced that this check is being cashed this early. I really think there's a lot more to it than we think.

    I very may well be entirely wrong. I'd just be a little surprised if the payoff for Elun'ahir is just another situation of protecting a world tree from those who wish to destroy it for nefarious means. I truly think there is a lot more to Elune than we are lead to believe, and that is slowly being gestated in the story.
    I personally see Rootlands being before 11.1, with Xal looking to corrupt its roots as a way to weaken or prime the world soul, and us working with the Harronir to try to stop her. They then end up joining us as a neutral AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Based on never having had a purely Metropolitan zone ever.
    There’s a first time for everything.

    If such a zone was considered by the developers then they probably would have made one by now seeing as they have had more than good enough reasons to make them.
    That was actually their idea for Undermine in vanilla. It was abandoned due to lack of Goblin assets and time. So if their goal is to put Undermine in the game, I’m pretty sure they’d follow their original design intent.

  3. #74763
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I personally see Rootlands being before 11.1, with Xal looking to corrupt its roots as a way to weaken or prime the world soul, and us working with the Harronir to try to stop her. They then end up joining us as a neutral AR.

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    There’s a first time for everything.



    That was actually their idea for Undermine in vanilla. It was abandoned due to lack of Goblin assets and time. So if their goal is to put Undermine in the game, I’m pretty sure they’d follow their original design intent.
    Zones in Vanilla were also much simpler and with less variety. Zones now would easily be two or three Vanilla zones, even discounting their small size.
    Take Ohn'ahran plains. On the surface a single plains biome, but look closer and you see that it has three distinct biomes within it to give it variety. The plains obviously, but also mountains and the Green Dragon area.
    A modern Undermine zone would have to be somewhat similar in terms of having distinct areas. Even more so if it's a patch zone and needs to have distinct areas to increase variety. Therefore a clear divide between the densely populated urban environment, and the outskirts with the more open areas.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #74764
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Zones in Vanilla were also much simpler and with less variety. Zones now would easily be two or three Vanilla zones, even discounting their small size.
    Take Ohn'ahran plains. On the surface a single plains biome, but look closer and you see that it has three distinct biomes within it to give it variety. The plains obviously, but also mountains and the Green Dragon area.
    A modern Undermine zone would have to be somewhat similar in terms of having distinct areas. Even more so if it's a patch zone and needs to have distinct areas to increase variety. Therefore a clear divide between the densely populated urban environment, and the outskirts with the more open areas.
    You mean like the Hearthstone iteration of Gadgetzan which showcased a Goblin city loaded with variety and different districts?

    So again, outside of “Blizzard has never done this before”, why couldn’t any of this be done for patch 11.1?

  5. #74765
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You mean like the Hearthstone iteration of Gadgetzan which showcased a Goblin city loaded with variety and different districts?

    So again, outside of “Blizzard has never done this before”, why couldn’t any of this be done for patch 11.1?
    I'd love a 100% urban zone and undermine would be a good place to do it, but I wouldn't bet on it because I imagine Blizzard is wary of detatching the game too much from the WoW identity most people think of (mud huts and white stone)

  6. #74766
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If Blizzard is dedicating an entire patch to it,
    And that's a huge "if" that is going of complete speculation without any concrete evidence. And no, "these goblins come from undermine" and having undermine mentioned here and there are not definitive evidence that Blizzard is working on an undermine-centric patch.

    wouldn’t it occupy the entire zone?
    Because I doubt that undermine is big enough, lore-wise, for that. Because even giant, sprawling cities such as Suramar, Dazar'alor and Boralus do not occupy the entirety of a zone.

    Based on what exactly?
    Based on the fact that Undermine is not going to be bigger than the capital city of the elves. Based on the fact that I have never seen any sort of evidence that undermine is "huge" in any way other than fan interpretations of what little we know of the place.
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  7. #74767
    I unironically think it'd be cool if Gallywix became a problem early in TWW and then returned in TLT alongside a Undermine Zone, but only time will tell.

    I saw something a couple pages ago about Xal'athat and the Amani but couldn't find anything about it. What happened?

  8. #74768
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkal View Post
    I saw something a couple pages ago about Xal'athat and the Amani but couldn't find anything about it. What happened?
    The War of the Aqir. Technically not Amani yet but the instigating event was located in what is now Zul'aman.

  9. #74769
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkal View Post
    I saw something a couple pages ago about Xal'athat and the Amani but couldn't find anything about it. What happened?
    On top of what Ersula said, in the Harbinger questline, one of the Riftwalkers talks of sensing void activity in the northern portion of the Eastern Kingdoms but that the trail went cold near Zul'Aman. So something was going on there.

  10. #74770
    Quote Originally Posted by Telogrus View Post
    What are y’all’s predictions for raid #2, raid #3, and the megadungeon?
    With Blizzard wanting to push out expansions faster than once every 2 years, we will be lucky if we even get a third raid.

  11. #74771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Absolute best case scenario for Undermine in that regard is something like Revendreth I would reckon. Where a giant chunk is city, and a bigger chunk are the mines and abandoned cesspits outside.
    Personally, this is why I think Undermine proper will be a raid. It lets the developers go all-in on the theming without having to dedicate an entire zone to it. Maybe something similar to Nazjatar and the Eternal Palace where you go by train from a zone closer to Dorn and all the way to Undermine for the raid entrance.
    Agreed. Quickly refreshing myself on Kezan/Undermine lore, the capital city is described as being subterranean. Going by the snippets we see of the surface in the goblin starting zone and Motherlode, there are large areas of construction and industry, but the rest of the island is still covered in jungle.

    An entirely redone/revamped Kezan would likely consist of those elements - significant portion of goblin ruins leftover from the Cataclysm, some areas being rebuilt by returning goblins, large areas of wilderness, jungle (likely reclaiming some goblin ruins) and of course the volcano. Instances would take place below the surface in Undermine proper, with goblin construction as expansive as Blizz feels like doing.

    I'm hoping for something that feels like Blackrock Depths, if not actually quite as twisty to navigate.

  12. #74772
    The Insane Raetary's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Based on the fact that Undermine is not going to be bigger than the capital city of the elves. Based on the fact that I have never seen any sort of evidence that undermine is "huge" in any way other than fan interpretations of what little we know of the place.
    To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

    It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.


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  13. #74773
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And that's a huge "if" that is going of complete speculation without any concrete evidence. And no, "these goblins come from undermine" and having undermine mentioned here and there are not definitive evidence that Blizzard is working on an undermine-centric patch.
    We also have evidence of an upcoming goblin-based raid, Gazlowe being pushed as a significant character in the expansion, and Undermine fitting the overall thematic of TWW. Yes it’s not concrete evidence, but it is evidence. I wouldn’t even say it’s a huge if because such an excursion fits what occurred in patch 10.1 with Zalarek; a side story dealing with a specific faction, in that case the Dracthyr and the black Dragonflight.

    Because I doubt that undermine is big enough, lore-wise, for that. Because even giant, sprawling cities such as Suramar, Dazar'alor and Boralus do not occupy the entirety of a zone.
    Considering that undermine is the central location of the Goblin’s mercantile empire supposedly ruled by multiple trade princes, it would be far more than enough lorewise to handle a zone. It should actually be larger than those locations you mentioned.

    Based on the fact that Undermine is not going to be bigger than the capital city of the elves. Based on the fact that I have never seen any sort of evidence that undermine is "huge" in any way other than fan interpretations of what little we know of the place.
    Read its lore. Plenty of descriptions are available.


    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Undermine
    https://www.engadget.com/2011-08-07-...-pandaria.html
    https://ia801302.us.archive.org/29/i...OF_MYSTERY.pdf

    Btw, for that last link, Kezan/Undermine is discussed on page 74, and has over double the population than Orgrimmar (31k vs 14k, with Undermine alone having 20k). That indicates that Undermine is also potentially larger population-wise than Stormwind. So yeah, it’s a big place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

    It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.
    The Emerald Dream and Zalarek patch zones both got rather significant development and investment. Especially the ED zone.

  14. #74774
    Quote Originally Posted by Raetary View Post
    To add to this, Undermine would be a patch zone, which means its not gonna get the same full fledged investment as an expansion zone would get.

    It's inevitably going to be smaller, as patch zones tend to be.
    Are they really that smaller? I feel that the last ones that we got were pretty big, especially Zereth Mortis, but also Zaralek Caverns and The Emerald Dream. Probably not as big as an expansion zone but really huge anyways.

    I see people speculating about the size of Undermine city, do we need it to be bigger than Suramar? Really? What for?

    I hope that we get Undermine being fight for by three different factions. "Good" goblins, Void Ethereals allied with Gallywix, and the Brokers doing their own thing. The final showdown of the greedy races.
    Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.


  15. #74775
    Zaralek Cavern is the same size as the Waking Shores. The main difference is that the Waking Shore has more surface area due to the verticality of the cliffs so it feels bigger as there is more packed into the same amount of space, whereas most of Zaralek is a flat plain. Emerald Dream is about the same size too but feels bigger than Zaralek due to the density of the forest so you have more trees flying past you, at least when you are flying through and not spamming spacebar to simply soar high over the treetops.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2024-06-23 at 08:48 AM.

  16. #74776
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkarath View Post
    I see people speculating about the size of Undermine city, do we need it to be bigger than Suramar? Really? What for?
    I believe that if Blizzard is going to do it, they should make it a neutral hub that players can visit and RP in long after the expansion is over.

    That’s the most logical way to represent the location.

    To your point though, yeah the argument that patch zones aren’t large or densely packed with stuff is a strange stance to take after Zalarek and Amir’drassil.

  17. #74777
    Going by Blizzard themselves track record on underground city's of smaller mechanical based races. You'll get the isle of kezan as a patch zone and undermine as a mega-dungeon.

    Despite how I think Undermine deserves more. So did mechagon (despite being an excellent dungeon) as a city, island, and mechagnomes as a race. It was disappointing. Typical case of taking things players want, and mixing it up to be nothing they expected or wanted.

    Expect this, and be pleasantly surprised if we get anything more.

  18. #74778
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelheimy View Post
    Going by Blizzard themselves track record on underground city's of smaller mechanical based races. You'll get the isle of kezan as a patch zone and undermine as a mega-dungeon.

    Despite how I think Undermine deserves more. So did mechagon (despite being an excellent dungeon) as a city, island, and mechagnomes as a race. It was disappointing. Typical case of taking things players want, and mixing it up to be nothing they expected or wanted.

    Expect this, and be pleasantly surprised if we get anything more.
    Thing is, the datamined material says goblin raid, so if this happens, it’s not going to be a mega dungeon.

    In addition, raids post DF have matched the theme of the zones they come with. So if we’re getting a goblin raid, we’re likely also getting a goblin zone. That’s where the Undermine talk enters the picture.

    Further, like Azj Khenet, and Khaz Algar, Undermine was also hinted at during Dragonflight.

  19. #74779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    With Blizzard wanting to push out expansions faster than once every 2 years, we will be lucky if we even get a third raid.
    DF had 3 raids, and we will have 21 months in between expansions, sooo...
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  20. #74780
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    DF had 3 raids, and we will have 21 months in between expansions, sooo...
    Yeah the 18 month idea some people are pushing doesn't seem likely to me. I think we might see 20 months but that's it.

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