1. #7561
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    -_- You couldn't go up to the top of Icecrown before SL(Prepatch doesn't count). Secondly in Stormwind Turalyon is sitting on the throne. Guess who was on the throne before SL...Anduin.
    Why is Turalyon being on the throne relevant? The point is, Anduin suffering at the hand of Zovaal isn’t comparable to the damage that Sargeras and the Legion have done.

  2. #7562
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Weird I go to Icecrown and it’s exactly the same as it was before SL.
    The “rampant scourge” isn’t even a major issue after the prepatch so having a Lich King was clearly pointless.

    Also, two people getting bullied ≠ the planet getting stabbed.
    Hell, you even have some elemental NPCs still referencing Sargeras stabbing the planet in DF.
    Icecrown actually isn't the same as it was pre SL. Post SL Icecrown actually has a normal looking skybox now, and not a weird cloud line in the sky.

    Also, 2 people getting bullied doesn't begin to describe what they did for Zovaal across SL. Sylvanas burned Teldrassil, and that plotline is still going on past SL (but now, the Night Elves at least have a new tree growing), and Anduin was a prime suspect in the Realms of Death, as well as the greater Cosmos nearly collapsing.

  3. #7563
    Quote Originally Posted by Frood View Post
    I have no idea how or why you equate my explanation what other people mean about a pirate expansion to me actually wanting one. I don't.

    That being said, there are plenty of recently implemented lore tidbits that hint at Azshara's possible return (please don't confuse this with me wanting her to return).
    I agree that Azshara will return, and her return is inevitable. But Azshara is no longer tied to the oceans of the world of Azeroth, she pursues a higher calling. She has used a Void portal to travel somewhere. When Azshara returns, it is unlikely that the "Great Sea" will be involved. It is much more plausible that Azshara will return for a storyline revolving around the Void.

    But I find a Pirate expansion extremely boring, pirates are not important, they're just criminals. They can work as villains of a dungeon, like Freehold. That's it.

  4. #7564
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Not to mention how Zovaal wouldn't have accomplished anything if it wasn't for Sargeras and his Legion. It was the actions of Sargeras and his Legion that caused the Arbiter to break down, which kickstarted the whole plot of SL.
    Yeah, actions which were the ultimate result of a Cosmic Conspiracy that Zovaal and Denathrius orchestrated. So, you CAN argue that the stuff with the Legion was actually only there to indirectly aid Zovaal's plans, even if Sargeras never knew? Heh...it's funny how irony kicks in, especially when you consider Sargeras was once considered the ultimate "foe", but is now just some toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause he is afraid of the Dark.

  5. #7565
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    With the right amps and whatnot, we can take on different foes just fine. But without said amps, we'd get demolished
    You really don't get my point; I'm saying that the stakes of the story will become entirely deprived of meaning if he we continuously climb our way up the aforementioned cosmic food chain. If we continue concerning ourselves with perpetual escalation, nothing could potentially be impressive. There's far more to a villain and the stakes of a story than magnitude alone.

  6. #7566
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Icecrown actually isn't the same as it was pre SL. Post SL Icecrown actually has a normal looking skybox now, and not a weird cloud line in the sky.

    Also, 2 people getting bullied doesn't begin to describe what they did for Zovaal across SL. Sylvanas burned Teldrassil, and that plotline is still going on past SL (but now, the Night Elves at least have a new tree growing), and Anduin was a prime suspect in the Realms of Death, as well as the greater Cosmos nearly collapsing.
    Your argument is poor. Sylvanas destroyed Teldrassil? According to Gul'dan, the Legion destroyed 10000 worlds

    Do you think that the destruction of Teldrassil is worse than the destruction of 10000 worlds?

    The Jailer was bound to the Maw for millennia. During that time, the physical cosmos was at the mercy of Sargeras' Legion. His Burning Crusade caused unspeakable destruction to the Cosmos. And, even though Sargeras is imprisoned, his demons remain. Logically, just because the Legion has collapsed, doesn't mean the demons will stop being a blight upon the Cosmos.

    Gul'dan yells: I have seen the end of your pitiful world, Wrynn. You will perish in felfire, like ten thousand worlds before your own. The legion is ENDLESS.

  7. #7567
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    My guy, you literally used to RP on this forum as Sargeras and then Argus.

    Zovaal doesn’t even come into the equation for both effectiveness and icon status as Warcraft villains.
    I did that cause I liked those characters, and because I was a nerdy teen admittedly. I still like Sargeras, and I don't doubt he was very effective and badass, but he's just not as effective as the Jailer really.

    Hell, the Jailer cracked the pattern, which at least seemingly may have a lasting effect to it.

  8. #7568
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Yeah, actions which were the ultimate result of a Cosmic Conspiracy that Zovaal and Denathrius orchestrated. So, you CAN argue that the stuff with the Legion was actually only there to indirectly aid Zovaal's plans, even if Sargeras never knew? Heh...it's funny how irony kicks in, especially when you consider Sargeras was once considered the ultimate "foe", but is now just some toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause he is afraid of the Dark.
    I know that Danuser decided that his OC would be at the head of a multi-millennia-long Cosmic conspiracy. I don't deny that Sargeras was, in a way, a pawn of the Jailer. Mal'ganis literally refers to the Legion as a pawn in SL.

    The point is that Sargeras has certainly caused more damage to the physical universe than the Jailer. The Jailer has the POTENTIAL to reshape the entire Cosmos, but he failed. Sargeras might have failed in his invasion of Azeroth but he still caused the destruction of countless other world. The Jailer, afaik, has never caused the destruction of a world.

    Even though you clearly think that Sargeras was just an inferior pawn of the Jailer, surely you must recognize that Sargeras caused more destruction to the mortals of the Cosmos than the Jailer. At the very least, you should acknowledge that Sargeras did 99% of the dirty work, while the Jailer was afk in the Maw/non-existent in the lore.

  9. #7569
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Your argument is poor. Sylvanas destroyed Teldrassil? According to Gul'dan, the Legion destroyed 10000 worlds

    Do you think that the destruction of Teldrassil is worse than the destruction of 10000 worlds?

    The Jailer was bound to the Maw for millennia. During that time, the physical cosmos was at the mercy of Sargeras' Legion. His Burning Crusade caused unspeakable destruction to the Cosmos. And, even though Sargeras is imprisoned, his demons remain. Logically, just because the Legion has collapsed, doesn't mean the demons will stop being a blight upon the Cosmos.
    The Legion destroyed more than 10k worlds, that's just Gul'dan saying shit to hype them up. They actually scoured the timeways and destroyed an uncounted variety of worlds across many alternate timelines, as well as our main timeline, etc. The only reason Sargeras hadn't gone to Azeroth yet was because the Dark Beyond is Infinite in size.

    All of this is cool, yes. Again, no one is diminishing Sargeras' feats. But based off finalizing goals, and achieving their plans, Sargeras wasn't as successful as the Jailer.

    Also, pretty sure Zovaal wanted the Legion to reek havoc across the Cosmos, hell, he even tried to indirectly fuck with them before the events of WC3 via the Lich King.

    And guess what, it wasn't the Legion that foiled Zovaal there, it was Arthas lmao. The same Arthas who also betrayed the Legion, and betrayed Ner'Zhul soon after wearing the Helm of Domination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    I know that Danuser decided that his OC would be at the head of a multi-millennia-long Cosmic conspiracy. I don't deny that Sargeras was, in a way, a pawn of the Jailer. Mal'ganis literally refers to the Legion as a pawn in SL.

    The point is that Sargeras has certainly caused more damage to the physical universe than the Jailer. The Jailer has the POTENTIAL to reshape the entire Cosmos, but he failed. Sargeras might have failed in his invasion of Azeroth but he still caused the destruction of countless other world. The Jailer, afaik, has never caused the destruction of a world.

    Even though you clearly think that Sargeras was just an inferior pawn of the Jailer, surely you must recognize that Sargeras caused more destruction to the mortals of the Cosmos than the Jailer. At the very least, you should acknowledge that Sargeras did 99% of the dirty work, while the Jailer was afk in the Maw/non-existent in the lore.
    When you said physical threat, I thought you were talking about "us being able to beat the shit out of them" physical. I didn't think you were talking about the physical universe...

    My fault.

    - - - Updated - - -

    "The Jailer, afaik, has never caused the destruction of a world."

    The Jailer had no real way of entering the Physical Universe, so we don't know this, but we do know the Maw was able to expand and swallow up Oribos, and essentially cloud the infinite realms of the Shadowlands also. I'd argue that's a good range of his power at the time.

    If you think Zovaal can't destroy a planet tho, then you'll basically be saying a Fel Reaver is > The Jailer, as Rakeesh's Fel Reaver can detonate with the force of a collapsing Star.

  10. #7570
    Stood in the Fire TheRealDavidTwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleEverett View Post
    My personal theory/wish for 11.0 is a scenario I call "Homecoming." This is their big 20th anniversary, 10th expansion, 30th of Warcraft in general. We return to the original continents redesigned as max level content. The actual world may be a bit "smaller" but it's bigger zones. Think Durotar, Barrens, Dustwallow, Thousand Needles, and Tanaris as one big zone. It's set a bit after Dragonflight.

    In the lead up to this, things have gone... wrong in Stormwind. Turalyon has become increasingly strict and focused on the Light. No one knows why until one day Yrel's Army of the Light and her Divine Mother arrive. This alternate Xe'ra is aware of what the mortals of Azeroth did in helping Illidan avoid his destiny and she seeks to convert everyone to prevent such blatant disregard happen again.

    Turalyon's zealotry reinforced by this sets an ultimatum. Become Lightforged or leave. King Greymane leaves and retakes Gilneas as a place of refuge for all humans who do not wish to be remade. The dwarves close off Blackrock Mountain and Jaina breaks off trade relations with Stormwind. During all of this Azshara returns. She offers aid against this alien invasion and promises an army of Naga to both the Horde and the Alliance.

    Both the Horde and the Alliance have faced setbacks from the Army of the Light's invasion. On Kalimdor, Exarch Garrosh appeared and begins to preach to the Orcs and he gains followers despite warnings from the Mag'har. Because of this, they are forced to accept Azshara's aid because they are being pushed back to Orgrimmar and have already lost Stormwind. Everyone knows this aid is coming at a unknown cost, but they are desperate.

    With the Naga's help the forces of Azeroth push back and in a climatic battle above Stormwind, a wounded Xe'ra begins to turn into a void Naaru. This is when the betrayal happens. Azshara, having learned from Locus Walker, absorbs the power of the Dark Prime Naaru and becomes massively empowered. The resulting explosion destroys Stormwind and she leaves.

    In the aftermath, her Naga are abandoned. Some want to search for her, others have come to appreciate the time they've spent with the other people of Azeroth and finally feel their Queen has gone too far. After all this the story proceeds into the void side of the story as we see the plans set in motion by Azshara, Xal'atath, and Locus Walker take shape.

    The key feature of this starting point of course is playable Naga. They'd behave much like Dracthyr do without the ability to fly while in their Naga form. They'll be taught illusion magic by Azshara but it won't be as perfected as hers. Their humanoid illusions will be Night Elves but with fin ears, webbed fingers, and scales. Classes could be all but Paladin, Druid, DK, and Evoker. Give them some special "abilities" and animations for classes that use feet like monk.

    Levelling could be faction specific with Horde dealing with southern Kalimdor and the Alliance with the regions of Stormwind and Khaz Modan. There's plenty of breadcrumbs for dungeons. A Botani empowered Wailing Caverns, a new Black Rock Spire with the rogue Dark Irons trying to rebirth Ragnaros. Patch stories could give us updates on Lordaeron and Northern Kalimdor.

    Of course Dragonriding is enabled and using their new zoning technology, travel between the two continents is achieved by us flying through giant Kirin Tor portals at multiple points along the coasts.

    A lot of these ideas are probably too ambitious, but I really hope for 11.0 we return to the original continents to finally see their story progress. It's been a long time since Cataclysm. The existence of multiple Dalarans show they are fine with the same place existing twice and with Chromie time they don't need to delete the Cata zones. In 12.0 the 11.0 story can become the new levelling story replacing BfA.

    TLDR: Old World revamp, playable Naga, Light vs Void.
    This is an awesome idea. Good stuff

  11. #7571
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Heh...it's funny how irony kicks in, especially when you consider Sargeras was once considered the ultimate "foe", but is now just some toddler throwing a temper tantrum cause he is afraid of the Dark.
    And Zovaal was presented as the ultimate foe for pretty much one xpac, until it was revealed at the end that he was just a grey guy who was afraid of something else.

    Also, Sargeras came * this * close to completely stomping all over Zovaals "plan" (which really was purely based on luck). Zovaal needed Argus to die to knock the Arbiter out, and he needed Azeroths world soul as a battery. If Argus (or anyone before him) killed us, Zovaals entire plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras corrupted Azeroth (which he was in the process of doing during the raid), Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras actually KILLED Azeroth with his last-ditch sword stab, Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked.
    It was pretty much pure luck that everything worke dout for Zovaal the way it did.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  12. #7572
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    And Zovaal was presented as the ultimate foe for pretty much one xpac, until it was revealed at the end that he was just a grey guy who was afraid of something else.

    Also, Sargeras came * this * close to completely stomping all over Zovaals "plan" (which really was purely based on luck). Zovaal needed Argus to die to knock the Arbiter out, and he needed Azeroths world soul as a battery. If Argus (or anyone before him) killed us, Zovaals entire plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras corrupted Azeroth (which he was in the process of doing during the raid), Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked. If Sargeras actually KILLED Azeroth with his last-ditch sword stab, Zovaals plan wouldnt have worked.
    It was pretty much pure luck that everything worke dout for Zovaal the way it did.
    You say luck, I say Zovaal was playing his cards well with the possibilities and whatnot. Regardless, the fact remains in that Sargeras didn't stomp on Zovaal's plans, and the events of the Shadowlands happened the way they did anyway.

  13. #7573
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So you forgot about Raszageth (Storm/Wind), Iridikron (Earth) and Vyranoth (Ice/Water) already?
    The zone influence
    How much elemental influence do you run into in the zones themselves

  14. #7574
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    You say luck, I say Zovaal was playing his cards well with the possibilities and whatnot. Regardless, the fact remains in that Sargeras didn't stomp on Zovaal's plans, and the events of the Shadowlands happened the way they did anyway.
    Huh, No, it was pure luck.

    He was also lucky as far as the Old Gods are concerned. He was lucky that the heroes travelled back in time to get the Dragon Soul to destroy Deathwing and prevent the Hour of Twilight; he was lucky that the Heart of Azerite, Magni, and MOTHER snapped the heroes out of N'Zoth's mind-control at the last second. If N'Zoth won, Ny'alotha would have been merged with the Chamber of the Heart (the process had already begun in the final phase of the fight as stated in Encounter journal) and the World-Soul would have fallen to the Void.

    The Jailer couldn't possibly have known for certain that the heroes would defeat Deathwing, Sargeras, and N'Zoth, it was obviously a gamble. Drop the bias, he's not that smart.

    The Jailer was very lucky, he was even lucky that Sylvanas is an idiot who doesn't understand anything. His luck happened to run out in Zereth Mortis.

  15. #7575
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That's old-Blizz.
    This is nu-Blizz. It's fluffy and caters to a younger demographic that doesn't care about events in prior expansions. Horde, Alliance, are jarringly dismissed without any storied reason. But don't I look kewl in my gear...

    11.0, like DF, isn't likely to produce anything that will provoke much thought. It certainly won't resemble much in the way of a coherent story. But I'm sure it'll give some players a chance to show off how well they look in their new fitted armor. ("Is that selfie-camera working?")
    Weird take considering HvA never made sense lorewise and mechanically we should’ve had multiple factions for consistency. Despite this they protested against cross faction but sure as hell doubled down on merging factions into two for “player mechanic” reasons.

    Blizzard was never known for being consistent, and last year’s scandal only proves how their pigheadedness has held back their game for over a decade, both technical and storywise. Player agency will always be a good thing. There’s plenty of single player games out there if you want to be locked into a premade character.

  16. #7576
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Also, this should be the NEWS for Blizzard fan sites this week. Have it share time with D4 release.
    It's been a bit since this was brought up. I initially didn't bother saying the same on account of how recently it happened,—I figured that the news may not have circulated enough and they may have not had any time or the proper incentives to write on it,—but by now you would expect any number of fan sites to draw attention to this occurrence. It's certainly peculiar how neither Wowhead nor MMO-Champion have bothered to mention this at all.
    Last edited by Le Conceptuel; 2023-06-03 at 05:49 PM.

  17. #7577
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Huh, No, it was pure luck.

    He was also lucky as far as the Old Gods are concerned. He was lucky that the heroes travelled back in time to get the Dragon Soul to destroy Deathwing and prevent the Hour of Twilight; he was lucky that the Heart of Azerite, Magni, and MOTHER snapped the heroes out of N'Zoth's mind-control at the last second. If N'Zoth won, Ny'alotha would have been merged with the Chamber of the Heart (the process had already begun in the final phase of the fight as stated in Encounter journal) and the World-Soul would have fallen to the Void.

    The Jailer couldn't possibly have known for certain that the heroes would defeat Deathwing, Sargeras, and N'Zoth, it was obviously a gamble. Drop the bias, he's not that smart.

    The Jailer was very lucky, he was even lucky that Sylvanas is an idiot who doesn't understand anything. His luck happened to run out in Zereth Mortis.
    The Jailer can very much play with the possibility stuff, especially if we're going to assume he's got guys that can help out with said stuff and whatnot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, obviously the true answer is luck, but the LORE answer is likely that Zovaal played with the eventualities and whatnot to further his goals, and knew the waiting game would work in his favor.

  18. #7578
    Scarab Lord Polybius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Jailer can very much play with the possibility stuff, especially if we're going to assume he's got guys that can help out with said stuff and whatnot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean, obviously the true answer is luck, but the LORE answer is likely that Zovaal played with the eventualities and whatnot to further his goals, and knew the waiting game would work in his favor.
    I really wish they had played more into that. Considering he had the ‘loom’ to control fates, among other domination magics, his power was that of probability and predestination. Instead we got bad one-liners.

    Add to that he was ‘created.’ A Death construct, or singularity acting as Arbiter. Unfortunately one powered by ChatGPT.
    Last edited by Polybius; 2023-06-03 at 06:03 PM.

  19. #7579
    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Man View Post
    The zone influence
    How much elemental influence do you run into in the zones themselves
    Waking Shores has Fire, Plains prominently feature Wind and the entire eastern half of Azure Span is frozen over. Zaralek is a cave, has lava and is home to the old laboratory of the Earthbinder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    I really wish they had played more into that. Considering he had the ‘loom’ to control fates, among other domination magics, his power was that of probability and predestination. Instead we got bad one-liners.

    Add to that he was ‘created.’ A Death construct, or singularity acting as Arbiter. Unfortunately one powered by ChatGPT.
    Well, we defeat him something like 10 seconds away from wiping out the entire cosmos. Or not, if your damage isn't up to par.

  20. #7580
    Quote Originally Posted by Polybius View Post
    I really wish they had played more into that. Considering he had the ‘loom’ to control fates, among other domination magics, his power was that of probability and predestination. Instead we got bad one-liners.

    Add to that he was ‘created.’ A Death construct, or singularity acting as Arbiter. Unfortunately one powered by ChatGPT.
    And the Titans were created also, but for Order.

    Zovaal and the other Eternal Ones embody Death. Aman'Thul and the Titans embody Order.

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