1. #7601
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxan View Post
    Related to your point, another frustrating thing about the jailer, aside from everything else.. his characterization could have been adjusted slightly and greatly improved the story (imo).

    I have no idea why they tried to make him a "master planner" who arranged a perfect -nearly impossible to believe- sequence of events. Planning meticulous sequences of events seems more in-line with the void or the light, which both care a great deal about shaping the flow of events.

    Death doesn't have to plan for anything to achieve its goal, all death has to do is wait. We all die someday.

    Cut the convoluted story beats and retconning. Make the jailer a very simple villain: He has waited and grown more powerful over the decades that we have been funneling mortal souls into the SL with our seemingly bottomless appetite for war. Now he's able to pierce the veil and directly attack Azeroth, to do whatever it was he wanted to do with the world soul.
    The villains in this expansion are much better-written, even if they might be less "ambitious" conceptually. There are no grand 5000 IQ masterplans, no complex "i just wanted to save you!!!" motives; just a bunch of crazy dragons who want to destroy everything. This is much simpler storytelling, but also much more understandable and effective.

    It also helps that the Primate Incarnates are way more unique and original in terms of design and personality than the Jailer.

    The Jailer looks so generic that people literally mistook him for some random NPC when his model was datamined. He certainly looked much more mysterious and menacing in the concept arts and Teaser, when he looked more like Aman'thul: a regal and elegant being who is truly ancient and patient. Not this bald nipple man who looks like a random mob.

    The Primal Incarnates look so much more unique than the Jailer, truly they are a great improvement in terms of design. They might not have a 5000 IQ "omgg i just wanted to save you from what is to come!!!" masterplan, but they look badass and that's all that matters.

    And we see that the Primal Incarnates are objectively better-received by the Community than the Jailer.
    Cut the convoluted story beats and retconning. Make the jailer a very simple villain: He has waited and grown more powerful over the decades that we have been funneling mortal souls into the SL with our seemingly bottomless appetite for war. Now he's able to pierce the veil and directly attack Azeroth, to do whatever it was he wanted to do with the world soul.
    They should have scrapped this horrible villain and made Denathrius the main villain of Shadowlands. Denathrius is ambitious and wants ultimate power, he would have started the anima crisis in order to become the most powerful Eternal One at the expense of the other realms. Denathrius is a simple villain; like Azshara, he's not some misguided "omgg i just wanted to save you all" villain, he just wants pure power.

    Blizzard knows that Denathrius is much more popular and beloved than the Jailer. That's why the Jailer is destroyed, while Denathrius is freed by his underlings. Denathrius could possibly take over the remnants of the Legion through his Nathrezim. Denathrius is ambitious; like Azshara, he seeks ultimate power, he doesn't care about anything else. He will return, but the Jailer will never.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-06-03 at 09:17 PM.

  2. #7602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Tree is basically staying in the Dream rn to mature, so that once it's ready, it can come back to Azeroth as a fully grown World Tree! One that is blessed by both the Winter Queen and Elune!

    And yeah, the Dream was utilized by beings of Order, namely Freya using G'hanir, to attune Azeroth with it, and create many types of Azerothian Blueprints for experimentation and whatnot.
    Alright then ignore my other post.. Makes sense the primalists would want to destroy it as another example of titan meddling then.

    Do we know what happens definitively in dawn of the infinite? I haven't watched the full dungeon playthrough yet and haven't seen any big posts about it.

    I'm still thinking avaloren will be a full blown expansion and not patch zone, and I think probably just one more major patch 10.3 next year.

  3. #7603
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The villains in this expansion are much better-written, even if they might be less "ambitious" conceptually. There are no grand 5000 IQ masterplans, no complex "i just wanted to save you!!!" motives; just a bunch of crazy dragons who want to destroy everything. This is much simpler storytelling, but also much more understandable and effective.

    It also helps that the Primate Incarnates are way more unique and original in terms of design and personality than the Jailer.

    The Jailer looks so generic that people literally mistook him for some random NPC when his model was datamined. He certainly looked much more mysterious and menacing in the concept arts and Teaser, when he looked more like Aman'thul: a regal and elegant being who is truly ancient and patient. Not this bald nipple man who looks like a random mob.

    The Primal Incarnates look so much more unique than the Jailer, truly they are a great improvement in terms of design. They might not have a 5000 IQ "omgg i just wanted to save you from what is to come!!!" masterplan, but they look badass and that's all that matters.

    And we see that the Primal Incarnates are objectively better-received by the Community than the Jailer.


    They should have scrapped this horrible villain and made Denathrius the main villain of Shadowlands. Denathrius is ambitious and wants ultimate power, he would have started the anima crisis in order to become the most powerful Eternal One at the expense of the other realms. Denathrius is a simple villain; like Azshara, he's not some misguided "omgg i just wanted to save you all" villain, he just wants pure power.

    Blizzard knows that Denathrius is much more popular and beloved than the Jailer. That's why the Jailer is destroyed, while Denathrius is freed by his underlings. Denathrius could possibly take over the remnants of the Legion through his Nathrezim. Denathrius is ambitious; like Azshara, he seeks ultimate power, he doesn't care about anything else. He will return, but the Jailer will never.
    Making Denathrius the Villain would suck, especially when you consider the fact he was supposed to be a one-off villain lol

    "The Jailer looks so generic that people literally mistook him for some random NPC when his model was datamined. He certainly looked much more mysterious and menacing in the concept arts and Teaser, when he looked more like Aman'thul: a regal and elegant being who is truly ancient and patient. Not this bald nipple man who looks like a random mob."

    Yeah, cause he was supposed to look a prisoner, and his concept art didn't really portray that well. He's much like Satan in Dante's Inferno, who was at the bottom of Hell and was basically a prisoner, despite ruling over the realm.

    His armored look, like "generic" looks metal asf at least, and I thought it made the Jailer look menacing! As for his bearded look, I assume that Aman'Thul look is probably why they scrapped it to begin with. Though, if you want my 2 cents, they could repurpose it and basically say that the concept art was Zovaal as Arbiter

  4. #7604
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Making Denathrius the Villain would suck, especially when you consider the fact he was supposed to be a one-off villain lol
    An irrelevant point to bring up, the Primal Incarnates are the main villains of DF and yet they are also "one-off" villains. They will never appear again after this expansion. Raszageth is already destroyed and the other 3 are doomed as they oppose the players. The next expansion will be about concepts that don't have anything to do with Primal Incarnates, such as Light vs. Void or Avaloren.

    Why is it bad to have a self-contained story? We don't need every villain to be the centre-piece of some conspiracy spanning across different expansions... having one-off villains like the Primal Incarnates is good writing.

    Besides, Denathrius will obviously return in the future and it wouldn't even surprise Me if it will happen in 11.0. In addition to this, Denathrius' minions, the Nathrezim, have allegedly infiltrated every Cosmic field; so, even if 11.0 has to do with the Light or the Void (concepts that typically wouldn't be associated to Denathrius), he can still return, along with his Nathrezim puppets.

    And I will tell you more, there is even the possibility that Denathrius will return in Dragonflight, if they make patch about Emerald Dream. Because there is someone in the realm of Life who is treacherous (source of this is Il'gynoth's whispers, which have typically been reliable in many ways), and we know that the Nathrezim sent infiltrator to the realm of Life, so we could see Denathrius' infiltrator/Denathrius himself (a cameo) in Emerald Dream patch.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-06-03 at 10:39 PM.

  5. #7605
    I wonder if the reason why the Green DF area is called the "Shady Sanctuary" is because it will soon become very shady with the new World Tree's branches hanging over it

  6. #7606
    Quote Originally Posted by Eeram View Post
    i hate coming in here now i never see anything patch related anymore lol its always the same people talking about lore an random shit unrelated to the patch feels bad zzzz
    Sometimes there's nothing new to discuss. This is speculation for future patches/expansion. Lore/gameplay all fits under that as far as I can tell.
    It's not people's fault if you come here looking for a topic that's been discussed dozens of pages back. Are people supposed to keep repeating the same thing, or staying silent for your convenience? Like, I don't get it. It's annoying to see people police whatever topic of speculation that some are passionate to discuss, there's mods for that.

    On topic, I hope that, considering it seems almost certain 10.2 will be emerald dream related, we will see Vol'jin back in the story, as a loa, with a new model and some story development. Also, if decay is explored in any meaningful way, which makes sense to me as a contrasting yet related theme to life and the emerald dream, I wish the Forsaken had some role in that, further developing their understanding of decay/undeath and how that may shape their ethos as a society and culture.

  7. #7607
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Sometimes there's nothing new to discuss. This is speculation for future patches/expansion. Lore/gameplay all fits under that as far as I can tell.
    It's not people's fault if you come here looking for a topic that's been discussed dozens of pages back. Are people supposed to keep repeating the same thing, or staying silent for your convenience?
    I do feel as though one contributing factor is that the topics of discussion are not particularly interesting, nor are they particularly disposed to incite passion. I, as such, shall start a conversation which experience confirms will give us many, many pages of discussion for days to come: let's talk about Sylvanas.

  8. #7608
    I wonder if choosing to go after Deios instead of Iridikron will result in Iridikron becoming too powerful and we have to go back in time again in 10.3 to stop Iridikron from siphoning Galakrond's power, knowing that Murozond will be born as a result

  9. #7609
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    An irrelevant point to bring up, the Primal Incarnates are the main villains of DF and yet they are also "one-off" villains. They will never appear again after this expansion. Raszageth is already destroyed and the other 3 are doomed as they oppose the players. The next expansion will be about concepts that don't have anything to do with Primal Incarnates, such as Light vs. Void or Avaloren.

    Why is it bad to have a self-contained story? We don't need every villain to be the centre-piece of some conspiracy spanning across different expansions... having one-off villains like the Primal Incarnates is good writing.

    Besides, Denathrius will obviously return in the future and it wouldn't even surprise Me if it will happen in 11.0. In addition to this, Denathrius' minions, the Nathrezim, have allegedly infiltrated every Cosmic field; so, even if 11.0 has to do with the Light or the Void (concepts that typically wouldn't be associated to Denathrius), he can still return, along with his Nathrezim puppets.

    And I will tell you more, there is even the possibility that Denathrius will return in Dragonflight, if they make patch about Emerald Dream. Because there is someone in the realm of Life who is treacherous (source of this is Il'gynoth's whispers, which have typically been reliable in many ways), and we know that the Nathrezim sent infiltrator to the realm of Life, so we could see Denathrius' infiltrator/Denathrius himself (a cameo) in Emerald Dream patch.
    I meant 1 off villain as in "they show up, and are built up for a raid, primarily as first tier final boss fodder, and die".

    Raszageth is a 1 off villain. Iridikron, Vyranoth, and Fyrakk aren't.

    Denathrius was SUPPOSED to be a 1 off Villain, but popular reception kept him around.

    Zovaal is basically Satan in WoW. He was always meant to be the final boss of SL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, Denathrius likely won't appear in the Dream. We MAY see a Dreadqueen or a Dreadlord, but that's it. And even then, I doubt that'll occur this expac.

  10. #7610
    I really am starting to think that we will get a 2 boss mini-raid in 10.1.7 where we finish off the last Elder, Igira, and Fyrakk. Season 2 is suposed to be the Black DF's time to shine in DF, so it would make sense that we cap off Season 2 by helping Ebyssian, Sabellian, and Wrathion beat Fyrakk in a mini-raid. The only issue I'd have with it is that the mini raid would only be relevant for 6-8 weeks.

  11. #7611
    Zovaal is WoW Satan, Ragnaros feels akin to Surtur (Ik Sargeras is supposed to be that, but idk...), Sargeras is basically Unicron in a way, the Void Lords are the Outer Gods but for WoW, the Light is very Christianity based to even Allah based in some ways, the Nether is literally 40k with the Warp (We haven't seen the full/true extent of the Nether, so there may even be Lords of Disorder), etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and the First Ones are basically if you put Sacred Geometry shit in a video game, as well as did some DC esc all powerful creator stuff and whatnot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Imagine meeting a Void Lord akin to Yog-Sothoth

  12. #7612
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    And yes, they don't care about the op and topic of the thread. All they want is to discuss old expansions.
    Varodoc was banned for a while, and as soon as he came back, he did it again. No respect.
    Glad I am not the only one sick of this.

  13. #7613
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    They regularly updated irrelevant old models in previous expansions like in SL 9.1 where they made new models for old world boars.

    They've been doing this for several expansions, do you think a revamp is planned? I don't see why they would do that otherwise.
    Yeah there’s also a lot of buildings and other scenery assets that’ve been updated behind the scenes too that we still haven’t seen I think.

    Definitely think there’s gotta be a world revamp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  14. #7614
    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    And yes, they don't care about the op and topic of the thread. All they want is to discuss old expansions.
    Varodoc was banned for a while, and as soon as he came back, he did it again. No respect.
    Yeah, I should honestly focus more on the speculation side of things, really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Speaking of which, y'all think we'll see more Infinite stuff in the coming expacs? Or?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Utsuko View Post
    They regularly updated irrelevant old models in previous expansions like in SL 9.1 where they made new models for old world boars.

    They've been doing this for several expansions, do you think a revamp is planned? I don't see why they would do that otherwise.
    Honestly? Yeah. It's a VERY slow and gradual process, but I'm fairly certain it's gonna happen.

  15. #7615
    Quel'thalas and Amani mountains. the Chronicles artwork of Silvermoon is gorgeous, but the in-game version doesn't compare. there is a plot to be finished there - a people divided due to the Void, which might be featured fairly soon.

  16. #7616
    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    Quel'thalas and Amani mountains. the Chronicles artwork of Silvermoon is gorgeous, but the in-game version doesn't compare. there is a plot to be finished there - a people divided due to the Void, which might be featured fairly soon.
    I wanna fight WoW's Yog-Sothoth!

  17. #7617
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    You say luck, I say Zovaal was playing his cards well with the possibilities and whatnot. Regardless, the fact remains in that Sargeras didn't stomp on Zovaal's plans, and the events of the Shadowlands happened the way they did anyway.
    So, betting everything on the microscopically small chance that some mortals defy all odds and that everything turns out EXACTLY how he needed it to be, with no chance of influencing the outcome himself, is "playing his cards well" in your opinion? Lol. The actual word for that is "gambling". Zovaal basically won the lottery in Legion. Nothing more, nothing less.
    And regardless, much like Sargeras, he got stopped. With the small difference that Zovaal got shanked, while Sargeras is still very much alive.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  18. #7618
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    So, betting everything on the microscopically small chance that some mortals defy all odds and that everything turns out EXACTLY how he needed it to be, with no chance of influencing the outcome himself, is "playing his cards well" in your opinion? Lol. The actual word for that is "gambling". Zovaal basically won the lottery in Legion. Nothing more, nothing less.
    And regardless, much like Sargeras, he got stopped. With the small difference that Zovaal got shanked, while Sargeras is still very much alive.
    He did similar ordeals with Sylvanas, with the "prophecies", when in reality, it's just Zovaal playing around with the potential eventualities and whatnot

    - - - Updated - - -

    Let's DM this or so. This thread has been derailed enough.

  19. #7619
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    So, betting everything on the microscopically small chance that some mortals defy all odds and that everything turns out EXACTLY how he needed it to be, with no chance of influencing the outcome himself, is "playing his cards well" in your opinion? Lol. The actual word for that is "gambling". Zovaal basically won the lottery in Legion. Nothing more, nothing less.
    And regardless, much like Sargeras, he got stopped. With the small difference that Zovaal got shanked, while Sargeras is still very much alive.
    I think it's less that he was playing well, and more that he just kept playing again and again. What we saw was just the one plan that worked, not the hundreds of failures preceding it.

    He had no shortage of time, after all.

  20. #7620
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I think it's less that he was playing well, and more that he just kept playing again and again. What we saw was just the one plan that worked, not the hundreds of failures preceding it.

    He had no shortage of time, after all.
    That is also true, tbf

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