1. #8201
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I am highly tempted to contest Cosmicpreds' point, but the moderation staff has seemingly undertaken to more proactively reprimand deviation. Would it or would it not constitute a violation of the topical guidelines if I argued this, and would it or would it not change your answer if I framed it very specifically through the context of future opportunities and how the First One problem could impact things in 11.0 and onward?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    I second this.
    I don't see any issues discussing the lore behind the First Ones as it pertains to possible and/or future content, no. The thread warnings set forth are about bickering as concerns previous lore from past stories ad nauseam, which is what the Lore forum is essentially for. Keep it topical as concerns future content and it's fine.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #8202
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    That's exactly the same issue, the horde is too often forced to share Alliance stuff when they should get their own version of things.
    The titans are in no way “alliance stuff”, hell given the origin of the goats isn’t tied to them the alliance actually has one less race tied to them then the horde.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  3. #8203
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The titans are in no way “alliance stuff”, hell given the origin of the goats isn’t tied to them the alliance actually has one less race tied to them then the horde.
    They look like humans and dwarves, and are deeply tied to dwarf and gnome history. Nelves work with mountain giants ans green dragons and are historically tied to the Emerald Dream

    They're tied to order and arcane stuff much more strongly than any spiritual angles, so they're closer to the alliance in flavor outside of the elves... Who already split horde themes awkwardly.

    Thematically, having Azeroth be "the earth mother" and having Aggramar make Grond, does not make the titans and all their vaults feel as relevant to the horde races, who have a much bigger aesthetic gap.
    Twas brillig

  4. #8204
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    They look like humans and dwarves, and are deeply tied to dwarf and gnome history. Nelves work with mountain giants ans green dragons and are historically tied to the Emerald Dream

    They're tied to order and arcane stuff much more strongly than any spiritual angles, so they're closer to the alliance in flavor outside of the elves... Who already split horde themes awkwardly.

    Thematically, having Azeroth be "the earth mother" and having Aggramar make Grond, does not make the titans and all their vaults feel as relevant to the horde races, who have a much bigger aesthetic gap.
    The titans are no more tied to dwarfs and gnomes then they are to tauren and orcs, all of them are down the line creations of things the titans made, dwarfs gnomes and tauren made to be servants and orcs are a Matryoshka dolls of Titan fungicide.

    Trolls also work with the Loa constantly and even live with some in there citys so the elfs working with Titan creations isn’t a one sided thing.

    So that just leaves that they look “human” and there arcane based and even the arcane typing is just the orcs and Tauren being dumb asses as even trolls could always be mages.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #8205
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    The titans are no more tied to dwarfs and gnomes then they are to tauren and orcs, all of them are down the line creations of things the titans made, dwarfs gnomes and tauren made to be servants and orcs are a Matryoshka dolls of Titan fungicide.

    Trolls also work with the Loa constantly and even live with some in there citys so the elfs working with Titan creations isn’t a one sided thing.

    So that just leaves that they look “human” and there arcane based and even the arcane typing is just the orcs and Tauren being dumb asses as even trolls could always be mages.
    Okay, so you're claiming that the tauren and orcs, like the dwarves, have a fascination with titan ruins and venerate them culturally?

    How do you toss in tauren with 'made to be servants'?

    "They can be mages" doesn't change the difference in cultural focus.


    You're not making any actual arguments that hold up under any scrutiny here.

    EDIT: How do you equate the loa with Green Dragons and Mountain giants? None of the loa have shown any specific dedication to the titans.
    Twas brillig

  6. #8206
    The Undying Teriz's Avatar
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    I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

    I still believe the top contender is Lightbound invasion with Arakkoa and Ogres as the new races. I have yet to see a rival expansion contender.

  7. #8207
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    New trading post items announced - Blood troll armor is here, gul'dan staff, netherwing dragonriding drake and others.
    The Blood Troll armour is probably going to show up in August. I hope I'm still alive at that time XD

  8. #8208
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Okay, so you're claiming that the tauren and orcs, like the dwarves, have a fascination with titan ruins and venerate them culturally?
    The orcs founded shamanism at the skull of grond a build a temple there worshiping and communing with the elements there until the orges came and blew it up, the cows worship the earth mother who is Azeroth, a Titan.

    They both might be crude in there ways of doing so as there both dumber then dwarfs but yes they venerate the titans and orcs had a fascination with what little ruins they had before they got blown up.

    How do you toss in tauren with 'made to be servants'?
    the Mogu made them to be slaves.

    "They can be mages" doesn't change the difference in cultural focus.
    the only races that focus on arcane as a culture are elfs and the horde has twice as many as the alliance given that night elfs don’t partake mostly.


    EDIT: How do you equate the loa with Green Dragons and Mountain giants? None of the loa have shown any specific dedication to the titans.
    during the ordering of Azeroth Freya made the wild gods and they then helped her spread greenery through out the world, they did the same thing the giants did but focused on life instead of land scapes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.
    ya I think it’s likely we’ll see a lot more Titan stuff likely in the last patch and I’d be surprised if we didn’t get some character over lap between it and hearthstone like with some watchers or other Titan constructs.

    Hell if they wanted to go all out they could put away some hidden Titan scanner that took 20 thousand years to find any thing and make the hearthstone titans canon but still a sleep like Azeroth some where in the universe.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2023-06-28 at 04:37 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #8209
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    My point is that I think it's just an iffy design that doesn't look much like a titan; I don't think it's strictly a matter of "wokeism" or any of that other culture war nonsense.



    Updated netherwing? That's pretty sweet!
    I feel like they wouldnt update the Netherwing model unless they were going to be relevant soon?

    So imo either they are appearing in an upcoming patch, or maybe they will be used in an expansion with Ethereals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I thought the whole idea Azeroth was a first one came from the First One waystones reacting to the player. Which in turn the devs said was because of the player's connection to Azeroth's world-soul.

    Obviously that plot point never got explored but I can see why some people ran with it.
    Maybe Azeroth is a first one/titan Hybrid. Maybe First Ones and Titans had a war and the Titans won somehow, but there was a Romeo and Juliet love story in there somewhere between a titan and first one. They created a hybrid. Azeroth.

    Its almost reminding me of Sanctuary too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Obviously. The Titans are progenitors. The word just means "ancestor".
    Oh nvm I forgot its said the Titans came after yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    I honestly don't think the titans were ever the top dogs, but you are right. It is true that their role in canon seemingly was appropriated for the First Ones and simply extended to a larger scale, which is part of what makes them so unpleasant. The less we see of the First Ones, the better.
    IM fine with the first ones existing if its sorta like they were already dead when the titans came about and they just discovered their remains or lost civilization. If thats all it is and we just hear about them from time to time, but never meet them it would be ok. I absolutely dont want to ever meet a first one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    And they still are. The First Ones are their own thing entirely.

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    If the Titans are the top of Order and are responsible for shaping much of the Physical Multiverse and whatnot, the First Ones are the guys that are responsible for said Gods as well as the system and forces of which these gods, as well as the cosmology, come from.
    Actaually maybe they should retcon it and make the first ones the progenitors and creators of the Eternals. Makes the Covenant leaders mega titan keepers and the first ones the Titans of death basically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

    I still believe the top contender is Lightbound invasion with Arakkoa and Ogres as the new races. I have yet to see a rival expansion contender.
    Tbh, I dont think we will see the titans again until we need them in the battle vs the void. Seems like the time we would unleash a purified Sargeras.

    Or who knows. Maybe they will Medan Illidan and all put their souls and power inside of him. Super sayain Nelf man will save us all.

  10. #8210
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    What do you even mean "I'm for freedom" no one's arguing blizz writers go to jail, Im pointing out that they're bad at telling stories about sensitive material with proper weight and care, and should stay away from it until they're ready to do it right.
    .
    That is taken it to the extreme, the point is that its just a story. The only reason it should not be in this game would be the age 12+ game. Its not the main focus of that story anyway.

  11. #8211
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    The Blood Troll armour is probably going to show up in August. I hope I'm still alive at that time XD
    Why wouldn't you be alive, it's one month - stay strong dude.

  12. #8212
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I doubt WoW is getting a Titan-based expansion right after Hearthstone gets a Titan-based expansion. I also believe the titans are going to be major part of the end of Dragonflight.

    I still believe the top contender is Lightbound invasion with Arakkoa and Ogres as the new races. I have yet to see a rival expansion contender.
    Based off what evidence in game?

    The general pattern is each expansion is hinted through various means in game, mostly subtle that make more sense in hindsight, but some a little more blatant like we saw with BfA leading into Shadowlands.

    What hints have you seen for Light invasion, Ogres and Arakkoa? From what I’ve seen in DF there hasn’t been any.

    The hints we have been getting in DF basically equate to the following:

    Avaloren
    World Revamp
    South Seas/Pirates
    Tel’Abim

    There’s nothing there to indicate otherwise at the moment so I’d be extremely surprised if it’s none of the above.

  13. #8213
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Based off what evidence in game?

    The general pattern is each expansion is hinted through various means in game, mostly subtle that make more sense in hindsight, but some a little more blatant like we saw with BfA leading into Shadowlands.

    What hints have you seen for Light invasion, Ogres and Arakkoa? From what I’ve seen in DF there hasn’t been any.

    The hints we have been getting in DF basically equate to the following:

    Avaloren
    World Revamp
    South Seas/Pirates
    Tel’Abim

    There’s nothing there to indicate otherwise at the moment so I’d be extremely surprised if it’s none of the above.
    SL was hinted at in BfA, but also during Legion. it means that these indications don't necessarily point to the next expansion - maybe the one after. at the same time, hardly anything showed us that DF is 10.0 during SL - the clues were put in the game mostly during BfA.
    Light as the antagonist has been in development since at least 7.3. it has to be released eventually, and now it's pretty ripe.

  14. #8214
    Brewmaster Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mekkle View Post
    man it must suck being black, you simply exist, and someone calls you woke.
    I got infracted for calling out racists who openly say that the Asian theme doesn't fit WoW multiple times on MMO Champ. I remember a post celebrating Women's day got trolled hard, but none of the trolls were infracted but the OP got infracted and the thread got locked. Calling out racism and misogyny in MMOchamp is bad and considered as 'trolling and disruptive' but being openly racist isn't. It's systemic


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    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    Why wouldn't you be alive, it's one month - stay strong dude.
    IDK how to tell you this, but death can happen at any time; in your sleep, on the road, in your own home. There's nothing in the future that is certain except for death
    Last edited by Jekyll; 2023-06-28 at 07:39 AM.

  15. #8215
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    SL was hinted at in BfA, but also during Legion. it means that these indications don't necessarily point to the next expansion - maybe the one after. at the same time, hardly anything showed us that DF is 10.0 during SL - the clues were put in the game mostly during BfA.
    Light as the antagonist has been in development since at least 7.3. it has to be released eventually, and now it's pretty ripe.
    I honetly could see a lot of diff themes all in one for 11.0.

    If its not a world revamp it could be the Other side of Azeroth aka Avaloren, plus pirates(nightsquall), plus Old God since theres a confirmed 5th now, and throw in some light shenanigans for good measure.

  16. #8216
    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    SL was hinted at in BfA, but also during Legion. it means that these indications don't necessarily point to the next expansion - maybe the one after. at the same time, hardly anything showed us that DF is 10.0 during SL - the clues were put in the game mostly during BfA.
    Light as the antagonist has been in development since at least 7.3. it has to be released eventually, and now it's pretty ripe.
    Light probably will be involved in next expansion, they will bring yrel back because why not, she would be fitting as first or second raid end boss.

    Grom was probably captured since i doubt she killed him and will use him in some way, hell she might be even wielding light infused gorehowl. ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    IDK how to tell you this, but death can happen at any time; in your sleep, on the road, in your own home. There's nothing in the future that is certain except for death
    I know, but thinking too much about random death is not good way to look at things after waking up every morning. :P but it's off-topic, still you will be all kickin and alive when blood troll armor is released.
    Last edited by ImTheMizAwesome; 2023-06-28 at 07:40 AM.

  17. #8217
    Quote Originally Posted by guro-tchai View Post
    SL was hinted at in BfA, but also during Legion. it means that these indications don't necessarily point to the next expansion - maybe the one after. at the same time, hardly anything showed us that DF is 10.0 during SL - the clues were put in the game mostly during BfA.
    Light as the antagonist has been in development since at least 7.3. it has to be released eventually, and now it's pretty ripe.
    Eh, there wasn’t anything related to Arakkoa, Ogres or Yrel in SL either though hint wise. The Light references/content we did get in SL revolved around the Lights attack on Revendreth because of the Dreadlords and the Scarlets propaganda. If anything that would hint more towards a Dreadlord/Light expansion because of the former reference, as well as the fact that the historically the Dreadlords have controlled the Scarlets. Nothing to indicate Yrel/Arakkoa/Ogres though.

    The only possible hint I could see implying future Arakkoa would be the time-lost Arakkoa NPC’s in Thaldraszuz. But they’re accompanied by Quillboar, not Ogres. If Ogres were there too then I could genuinely see that as an interesting implication in line with the Kul Tiran and Zandalari maroons in Legion.

    If we’re going off the expansion after next pattern, then wouldn’t the next expansion after DF point primarily to a 7th force or Denathrius expansion?

    I just can’t see it yet, I think Blizz will keep things a bit more grounded away from grand cosmic for a while which is why I’m going with either World Revamp, Avaloren expedition or South Seas & pirates.

  18. #8218
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I honetly could see a lot of diff themes all in one for 11.0.

    If its not a world revamp it could be the Other side of Azeroth aka Avaloren, plus pirates(nightsquall), plus Old God since theres a confirmed 5th now, and throw in some light shenanigans for good measure.
    could be - they did use the faction war, Nazjatar and N'zoth in a single expansion. however, that approach doesn't leave a lot of space to develop the themes, which is lamentable. up to you to decide whether Nazjatar and its surroundings deserved a whole expansion of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    Eh, there wasn’t anything related to Arakkoa, Ogres or Yrel in SL either though hint wise. The Light references/content we did get in SL revolved around the Lights attack on Revendreth because of the Dreadlords and the Scarlets propaganda. If anything that would hint more towards a Dreadlord/Light expansion because of the former reference, as well as the fact that the historically the Dreadlords have controlled the Scarlets. Nothing to indicate Yrel/Arakkoa/Ogres though.

    The only possible hint I could see implying future Arakkoa would be the time-lost Arakkoa NPC’s in Thaldraszuz. But they’re accompanied by Quillboar, not Ogres. If Ogres were there too then I could genuinely see that as an interesting implication in line with the Kul Tiran and Zandalari maroons in Legion.

    If we’re going off the expansion after next pattern, then wouldn’t the next expansion after DF point primarily to a 7th force or Denathrius expansion?

    I just can’t see it yet, I think Blizz will keep things a bit more grounded away from grand cosmic for a while which is why I’m going with either World Revamp, Avaloren expedition or South Seas & pirates.
    arakkoa, ogres and Yrel are from AU Draenor, which was being converted during our visit there back in BfA, in the mag'har recruitment scenario. these people are kinda cool, no wonder people expect them to come to Azeroth if we're getting a Light invasion from Draenor.
    also, i don't think scarlet propaganda ever made it to live servers, but i could be mistaken.
    there's no fixed pattern, as in hints in a prior expansion point directly to the next one or the one after the next. imo, it depends purely on what's happening in the cdev dojo. it's just that we've been getting a reminder about the Light's danger for three expansions in a row, eventually it has to result in something. although it is possible that the idea was partially abandoned.

  19. #8219
    Quote Originally Posted by Santandame View Post
    What hints have you seen for Light invasion, Ogres and Arakkoa? From what I’ve seen in DF there hasn’t been any..
    Light invasion has been a vague chekov's gun waiting to be fired, but its defo a 'whenever there's nothing else around to drag out' type of thing they could drag out at any time.

    Nothing about ogres or arakkoa though, as much as I'd like to see the two make another appearance

    Aside from my own crazy 'let's go to the moon and meet/fight elune' theory that I acknowledge as basically unlikely at best, there's also all the Old God "They're lying to you" referenes that could lead to still extant Black Empire related stuff on backside of Azeroth or the like. Plus the 5th Old God got mentioned again in Deathwing's pages so they could bring them back, if G'huun isn't filling that role

  20. #8220
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The First Ones are an unknown variable, but it does seem like they are omniscient, or at the very least created the idea of omniscience and whatnot, but they simply do not see futures in any traditional sense. Whatever path the Universe takes is whatever path the Progenitors can see. Whether it be singular or infinite.
    I think it's more advanced probabilistics and a thorough understanding of how the universe works (because they made it) combining to let them predict what might happen and creating contingencies for it. So it's really closer to science and math.

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