1. #8881
    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    So WoW tiktok account posted this a few days ago.

    I know they are updating the lighting and fog, but does Silithus/southern kalimdor not look more modern to you guys?

    Could this be teasing the revamp, or is it just the same area with new lighting and fog.

    https://www.tiktok.com/@warcraft/vid...50426602261803
    That is just wordless Silithus phase with the new draw distance and fog that implemented in 10.1.5. Just playing on the "Sword? What sword?" meme.

  2. #8882
    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    It's so weird to me that people say a revamp to Eastern Kingdoms / Kalimdor is bad because it's not "new content".
    How is entirely reworking zones and redoing the stories and quests and content in them not "new content"? Hundreds of new quests, cosmetics, world quests, PvP areas, ect ect. It'd be no different than something entirely made up.

    Nostalgia sells.
    Look at the Pokemon franchise and how hard they milk generation 1.
    Literally the same concept on a smaller scale.

    People who care about Warcraft want more Warcraft. The further away the game strays from it's core, the more convoluted it becomes.
    A return to simplicity where we get entirely new content in nostalgic zones that moves the story forwards isn't a bad thing.

    I want to care about Night Elves and Worgen and actually get content for Void Elves. Introducing yet another useless NPC race and doing world building for them, all while spinning the roulette on what trendy aesthetic the newly made up zones are gonna be ain't it.
    The story needs to move forwards.
    We are not moving the story forwards by just adding new zones that have nothing to do with the original story constantly.

    You know what'd be exciting to explore?
    Stuff people actually care about not being destroyed and stuck in a state of "oh no giant dragon burnt everything".
    That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

    Because if you're did, you're one of the few

    There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    I think that to make it work, aside from 0 wish from devs, zones must be merged and unlarged. And if there will be 2-6 expansions with it - how draw line between revamped and not-revamped zones? Make glass wall? Make shadow wall? Or make completely separated Kalimdor/EK from current zones?
    And not all zones could be enlarged and merged.
    For example - if, I repeat IF zones will be megred - what to remove? Again - for example Tanaris+Uldum+Silithus can be cool sand zone, with Old gods, qiraji and pirates. But for single zone there is too much story and content. Farraki, pirates, Bronze dragonflight, qiraji, Tolvirs, and Uldum titan stuff. I think its to much for single zone, but too little for expansion. Theoretically it is possible to cut Bronzes, make Farraki (that lived and not massacred to this day) friendly and cut Titan stuff from Uldum. Make it more about Old God corruption, with titan stuff to be some patch content for future. With side stories about Gadgetzan and pirates.
    Or how merge Desolace? Or Ungoro+Feralas?
    While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

    They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason

  3. #8883
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

    Because if you're did, you're one of the few

    There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones



    While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

    They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason
    Most of the max level content we get in a new expansion is just leveling content that is upscaled. Almost every world quest is part of that, half the dungeons are leveling dungeons, events are often tied to the stories of the leveling experience. What exactly would be keeping them in the post-Legion World Quests and Events paradigm from doing the same? There absolutely are issues with revamp concepts but this is just not one of them.

  4. #8884
    I don't understand when I read that : remaking old zones from scratch and transforming them into at the same time leveling and endgame zones wouldn't work or isn't a revamp

    Then how would you call it? Why wouldn't it work? There is enough opportunity to make some new and staggering visuals and deep stories to be told that would involve many known characters. And more importantly this isa very occasion to grow alliance and horde stories and identities.

  5. #8885
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    That's the thing though, we saw what happened in Cata. People are only concerned about endgame. For all of the quests Cata added, how many did you go back and do at high level? How many Dragonflight side quests did you go back and finish once you hit max level? Go back and experience good stories there?

    Because if you're did, you're one of the few

    There absolutely is a desire to update the world but it has to be balanced with the fact that people want new things, and even riding on nostalgia, there's only so much you can adjust the existing things. Plus, there's roughly 40 zones worth of content before the two, even if we don't touch some like Vashj'ir's three zones



    While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

    They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason
    Kalimdor



    I think more about just like that. We have 3 (2 starter zones + leveling one - Barrens) zones for Horde, 3 zones for Alliance (2 starter zones + leveling one - Ashenvale) and Sand zone and forest zone for patch content. Ungoro and Winterspring as mini-patch zones.
    And remove much of mountains. I undertand that it was placed for separating zones, but come on, its not aged well.
    Last edited by Dancaris; 2023-07-10 at 09:42 AM.

  6. #8886
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    While I'm "I don't think they can get it working" on a revamp, I'm actively against zone merging. What do we gain from it? Silithus, Tanaris and Uldum each have their own seperate vibe, their own seperate things to them, why should they be just the one zone?

    They had to split zones in Cata for a good reason
    How many biomes and how many stories does Azure Span tell?

  7. #8887
    If they do make a revamp, they need to make sure that the core races all have their own set of starting zones that don't get wrecked by the time you finish levelling in them. That way you can revisit them in the future and they'll be just like you left them.

    I was looking forward to the whole "living world" thing where zones and places change based on your actions, but this just makes me miss how the zone was originally.

    Anyway, the core races (Classic-Cata races) should have their own set of starting zones.

    Humans for example never changed. Elwynn Forest, Westfall (even though in a constant state of war, which is the problem I am talking about), Redridge and Duskwood are there.

    Dwarves and Gnomes have Dun Morogh, Loch Modan and Wetlands.

    Night Elves have... Ashenvale. And even that is halfway messed up and in a state of war. So they don't really have a proper zone for themselves do they? I doubt that Teldrassil is ever coming back in any shape or form even with a Revamp, so while Darkshore is somewhat salvageable, they'd need a different zone as well. Felwood should've been cleansed by now surely. So that, Darkshore and Ashenvale can be the new ones.

    Draenei have Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles and with a revamp they will probably be connected seamlessly to the rest of Kalimdor.

    I'll talk about Worgen in a bit...

    As for the Horde side, the Orcs and Trolls have Durotar and as much as I hate to admit it, Azshara is supposed to be their 2nd levelling zone, correct? Along with the Barrens.

    Tauren also have Mulgore and share the Barrens with the Trolls and the Orcs.

    Speaking of the Barrens, they should definitely combine them into one zone again, put some bridges over the gap which is probably not burning anymore and there you have it.

    Now, speaking of the Worgen AND the Forsaken, assuming the Worgen get back Gilneas (and they better do tbh), and the Forsaken get back Lordaeron, which we know they will, should they share zones in Silverpine? Or should the Forsaken have their 2nd zone be Western Plaguelands?

  8. #8888
    Quote Originally Posted by ImTheMizAwesome View Post
    I mean speak for yourself, because for me updated warfront zones were exciting to explore everything plus new music, faming elite mobs for rewards and seeing references.
    Im still disappointed that we didn't get Southern Barrens warfront.

    The thing it was lacking was a proper, long new storyline attached and overall wider reaching systems and these are the things i would hope at least partial revamp would be based upon, also connecting some areas with each other.
    I have a hard time believing you, because there is objectively almost nothing to explore. It's still the nearly identical zone it has been since Cata launch. I believe that you enjoyed looking around at the nicer looking version, I did too, that you flew through the zone just for the sake of seeing the "new version" (probably once?) and checking if there was anything different--but I really can't buy that you spent a large amount of time "exploring" a zone that is 96% the same as it has been for 10 years.

    I feel like that's sort of self evident in your post. It wasn't even exciting enough for "exciting to explore" to stand on its own in your mind. You felt the need to pad it's value with "there's new music" and "farming elite mobs". Your first inclination wasn't to post about memorable first views, or location discoveries, because there weren't any. It's not like you were shocked there was a giant monster skeleton sticking out of the ground when you came upon it. The whole zone was just the same views in higher fidelity. You having fun in the zone is different from exciting exploration

    You also have to consider the larger picture. You had fun in those zones as a .1 patch for an expansion with two entire brand new, never seen before continents. What we're talking about though is an expansion where every zone is just Darkshore. Zones you've seen a hundred times before, but with nicer textures and higher poly trees and a handful of new buildings.

    A revamp expansion that isn't a remake is an expansion of knowns. One that has no exploration.

    You make a new undead character and it starts in Stratholme--pretty neat, right?--your map is undiscovered, blank because you haven't visited anywhere yet, but before you pick up that first quest, you've already explored everything. Your first question isn't "(exploration) what's outside this cool gate, or down that road, or through this mountain pass?". You know what is outside the gate, EPL. And next to it, WPL > Tirisfal > Silverpine > Hillsbrad > Arath > Wetlands... you know what's down the "road" all the way to the opposite end of the entire continent: Booty Bay, and where the flight paths are in that town, and exactly what turns to take when walking down the roads to get all the way there without ever consulting your map. Your first question instead is ""What's changed with the town, Corin's Crossing that I know is out of this gate and down the road to the south? Are there still mindless undead in it?" It's no longer about exploration, it's about updating the status of a whole bunch of things you already know about in thorough detail.

    Speaking as someone who could stomach but wouldn't prefer it: I do not think that most of the playerbase would enjoy an expansion with nowhere new to explore.

  9. #8889
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I have a hard time believing you, because there is objectively almost nothing to explore. It's still the nearly identical zone it has been since Cata launch. I believe that you enjoyed looking around at the nicer looking version, I did too, that you flew through the zone just for the sake of seeing the "new version" (probably once?) and checking if there was anything different--but I really can't buy that you spent a large amount of time "exploring" a zone that is 96% the same as it has been for 10 years.
    You don't have to believe me and i won't be trying to sell this idea to you in hours long discussions, when you are clearly against that after reading some of your posts and your opinion is already set in stone.

    It would be just a waste of time, honestly.

  10. #8890
    Did the devs actually say they messed up with the Cata revamp? Why did they think that?

  11. #8891
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Kalimdor



    I think more about just like that. We have 3 (2 starter zones + leveling one - Barrens) zones for Horde, 3 zones for Alliance (2 starter zones + leveling one - Ashenvale) and Sand zone and forest zone for patch content. Ungoro and Winterspring as mini-patch zones.
    And remove much of mountains. I undertand that it was placed for separating zones, but come on, its not aged well.
    To add some EK stuff - my vision on EK.
    EK
    Harder one to me. We have 5 starter zones (BE, forsaken, gilnean and SW, Dun-Morogh), 3 leveing zones (Arathi+Alterak+Hinterlands, Blackrock and Blasted Lands+Swamps) and Stranglethorn Vale, Plaguelands and Northeron as patch zones.

  12. #8892
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Speaking as someone who could stomach but wouldn't prefer it: I do not think that most of the playerbase would enjoy an expansion with nowhere new to explore.
    I understand your point, but I'm highly doubtful that would actually be the case. Obviously, neither of us have the requisite information to say for sure, but I think there is a certain appeal to seeing the current status of something you've already seen before, especially in a long-running game like WoW. In a newer game, I could see continuously revisiting the same thing to potentially be fairly dull, but it's been a great deal of time since we last visited Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms outside of some small slices.

    If we're to cite personal opinions, I am personally uncertain whether I would enjoy visiting Avaloren (or the landmass that hosts it) or revisiting Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms more, but I believe there's a great deal of value to the latter that could certainly justify an expansion's worth of content.

    My preferred notion, however, is of a limited revamp, such as one focused on Lordaeron. I am personally inclined to support that particular idea because it would give us a limited number of zones that could be more thoroughly fleshed-out, which will likely be in a state very different to the state they were in last we saw them. I think this could mitigate the bulk of your objections because the change will be far more significant and profound than most other locations, and because the updates to the relevant zones would exceed the potentially-limited scope of a revamp.

  13. #8893
    While I understand the dangers of a world revamp as a expansion, I don't really fully consider cataclysm one.

    In some zones Cataclysm was literally destroying zones people had loved for years, I'm not surprised a lot of people dropped off. Especially after time. It's like what they did with Vale of Eternal Blossoms. God I hated those initial changes, and I hated the old god infested (but not really) zones at the end of BFA.

    If they do a revamp it'll be framed as rediscovery of the classic continent with a full revamp, not just and HD update IMHO. They can put Ziridormi in an updated CoT to change back I guess.

  14. #8894
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    How many biomes and how many stories does Azure Span tell?
    The Azure Span is the Azure Span though. It has the overall zonewide aesthetic of "Cold mountainous forest". Yeah, lots of biomes, but there's an overall general aesthetic that tells you "You're in Azure Span", as compared to similar places like Grizzly Hills

    Each zone has its invidiual language. Even with the split, you can tell northern and southern Barrens are the one thing, simply because the visual language of the Barrens is consistent between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    Kalimdor

    I think more about just like that. We have 3 (2 starter zones + leveling one - Barrens) zones for Horde, 3 zones for Alliance (2 starter zones + leveling one - Ashenvale) and Sand zone and forest zone for patch content. Ungoro and Winterspring as mini-patch zones.
    And remove much of mountains. I undertand that it was placed for separating zones, but come on, its not aged well.
    So, firstly, you've destroyed any hope of backwards compatibility with the Cata zones for a start.

    Secondly, what is the advantage from doing this? You've merged together multiple starting zones with high end stuff so its clearly not to help new people. What's the point of breaking the game's history and links by merging in stuff in these ways, breaking people's historic memories of these places? Everyone knows there's tons of complaints about Thounsand Needle's being flooded, I absolutely guarantee you there'd be exactly as many for making Silithus and Feralas, places that don't even touch in the game, part of the same area

    These mountains are known to people. If you remove them, particularly well known ones like "Those cliffs between the Barrens and Ashenvale that you can scale to get to Grom's memorial" or "That really tall unnamed mountain between Silithus and Ferals that really should be expanded upon", people are going to notice and are going to question the spirit of this revamp at play and if its true to the history. A lot of the first things people did in Cata's revamp is go and find historic caves and the like we could see but not ever, and go poke around in them

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Most of the max level content we get in a new expansion is just leveling content that is upscaled. Almost every world quest is part of that, half the dungeons are leveling dungeons, events are often tied to the stories of the leveling experience. What exactly would be keeping them in the post-Legion World Quests and Events paradigm from doing the same? There absolutely are issues with revamp concepts but this is just not one of them.
    The levelling zones gotta draw people in and keep them inspired. You need something to keep people hooked long enough to hit that endgame. Plus, to keep the hype up and get the various Youtubers and streamers out there to create content for you. That's why datamining's tolerated, its basically just free advertising.

    In simpler terms: You gotta have something fancy for the "look at the New Content To Buy The Expansion" trailer shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceveris View Post
    That was 13 years ago...
    That was also at WoW coming out of Wrath. The period when WoW was at its highest, its most popular. Why wouldn't we compare it to the expansion that dragged it down from its lofty heights?

  15. #8895
    Quote Originally Posted by Mecheon View Post
    So, firstly, you've destroyed any hope of backwards compatibility with the Cata zones for a start.
    We dont need backwards compatibility IMO, just ensure that no content will be cut (mog, pets, toys and mounts).
    Secondly - It is a point of rewamp - make old world better, not HDed old one. Remove unnecessary mountains, not all of them. We really dont need mountains between Barrens and Swamps, we dont need mountains between Darkshore and Felwood (we dont need felwood ina first place, but alas). But we need Hyjal Mountain, we need Stonetalom and we need Uldum ones, plus Ungoro - its necessarity is canon. Other that that - I dont think so.
    Make whole, comprehensive stories about Kalimdor, not Deathwing, not Nzoth or some other BIG BAD VILLIAN. Some quillboar necromancer that lasts from Durotar to Barrens and we kill him in Uldum. Some Satyrs that you find in Darkshore, then you go to Ashenvale for him and meet at Feralas with demons. Centaurs, rogue taurens, Elven ruins, Plains and Hills of central Kalimdor. Pirates of Tanaris and Barrens.

    And for a record - in my view - with modern tech - there is no high end zones, all them are equal. Just some of them let some races start in it.

  16. #8896
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    We dont need backwards compatibility IMO, just ensure that no content will be cut (mog, pets, toys and mounts).
    Secondly - It is a point of rewamp - make old world better, not HDed old one. Remove unnecessary mountains, not all of them. We really dont need mountains between Barrens and Swamps, we dont need mountains between Darkshore and Felwood (we dont need felwood ina first place, but alas). But we need Hyjal Mountain, we need Stonetalom and we need Uldum ones, plus Ungoro - its necessarity is canon. Other that that - I dont think so.
    Make whole, comprehensive stories about Kalimdor, not Deathwing, not Nzoth or some other BIG BAD VILLIAN. Some quillboar necromancer that lasts from Durotar to Barrens and we kill him in Uldum. Some Satyrs that you find in Darkshore, then you go to Ashenvale for him and meet at Feralas with demons. Centaurs, rogue taurens, Elven ruins, Plains and Hills of central Kalimdor. Pirates of Tanaris and Barrens.

    And for a record - in my view - with modern tech - there is no high end zones, all them are equal. Just some of them let some races start in it.
    We have tons of achievements, we have active zones from BfA that are tied into that whole thing, we have the Dragonflight races just being included next patch. You need backwards compatibility

    There are no mountains between Dakrshore and Felwood. What there is though is a cliff, because Felwood sits massive vertically above Darkshore and people have known this for years. Its why Hyjal's so tall, Darkshore's the shoreline, Felwood's a more alpine part of the forest as you climb the mountain making your way to Hyjal's summit. That's part of the World of Warcraft, part of how this game and world have been presented ever since.. If you remove the massive cliffs between the two, you're not respecting. You're making a tiny mount Hyjal that isn't so massive you can see the thing looking out from Orgrimmar, which we can do today. These are part of the world as we know it, changing them up is disrespecting the world's history

    Frankly if anything, Felwood and Darkshore need more differntiation between them, to let Hyjal be even taller and more mountanous. And we absolutely need Felwood. That's basically the Satyr home turf, it was in WC3 as its own very specific thing, its the place thte Timbermaw Furbolg rep occurs. Felwood alone is more important to Warcraft than like, half the zones in southern Kalimdor.

    There are high and low end zones. People can walk out the front of Orgrimmar and Stormwind, ignoring all the quests, and just going to wander. That's just, how the game is built. You can't take zones built for 60 levels of exploration and go "They're now endgame!"

    Your quillboar necromancer is literately just another big bad villain with all of the re-occurences of Skovald. People want good stories that tie into areas, not pointless long spanning epics for the sake of long spanning epics. They tried long-spanning epic last expansion with the Jailer. It didn't work.

    Welcome to the fun issue of doing a world revamp. You need to keep the world true to what it is. This includes dumb things like "There's a cactus patch where it goes from Tanaris down into Un'goro"

  17. #8897
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceveris View Post
    Curious point of view here. Do you really think they only have one team working on one aspect of the game at a time? Once again, are you a developer at Blizzard to advance you on this subject?

    Anyone can pretty much say anything without arguments or sources.
    Oh, but we do have sources. They literally said that they barely managed to release DF on time. Do you really think they can pull off both proper endgame and a proper revamp?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Did the devs actually say they messed up with the Cata revamp? Why did they think that?
    They said that the revamp consumed too much time and resources, making end game content weaker.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-07-10 at 11:46 AM.
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  18. #8898
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Oh, but we do have sources. They literally said that they barely managed to release DF on time. Do you really think they can pull off both proper endgame and a proper revamp?

    - - - Updated - - -



    They said that the revamp consumed too much time and resources, making end game content weaker.
    Which was a weak excuse anyways - endgame content was good for that time, atleast the first two raid tiers. Problem was that Dragonsoul was a copy paste piece of trash and really weak for a last raid. And they also skipped two planned raids - Abysal Maw (which again was just copy paste trash instead of a propper water elemental raid so it's not really a loss) and War of the Ancients (which would have been awesome).

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  19. #8899
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Which was a weak excuse anyways - endgame content was good for that time, atleast the first two raid tiers. Problem was that Dragonsoul was a copy paste piece of trash and really weak for a last raid. And they also skipped two planned raids - Abysal Maw (which again was just copy paste trash instead of a propper water elemental raid so it's not really a loss) and War of the Ancients (which would have been awesome).
    Well, maybe this copy-paste and skipped content were the result of revamp consuming this many resources? Scrapping two raids is not something you see everyday. First and second tier were okay, becasue they were most likely made far in advance, but when DS was being created, they got behind due to revamp and had to already work on MoP. Kinda weird to move from very nicely crafted Firelands to suddenly re-used Dragonblight. And let's not forget that it was in Firelands when they suddenly announced a new raid philosophy of having much less bosses inside, it's like they were running short on time and resources. Dungeons released also mostly used already existing stuff. There is so many evidences of cutting corners in later Cata development.

    You kinda reinforced that theory with your post that end-game suffered due to revamp.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-07-10 at 12:17 PM.
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  20. #8900
    Why would the Cata revamp affect resources that are for content two years after that? Surely they have a different budget for patch content, especially the very final patch.

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