1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulggun View Post
    Yeah, yeah. They should make a special, real-life like cinematic showing her death, dismembering and stuff. With her begging for her life and forgiveness and we get to choose if we want to give her that but the only options are "NO" and "NOOOO".

    This but unironically.

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Sylvanas dying was supposed to be the only satisfying part of Shadowlands, being denied that just made Shadowlands all the more rage-inducing. Not even the cut content of Draenor has made me this miserable on the state of the game.
    WoD ended with Genocidal War Criminal Grommash holding hand with the Draenei families that he butchered and persecuted throughout the entire expansion. He held hands with Yrel, whose sister was brutally executed by the Void powers on Grommash's orders. He held hands with Durotan, whose brother died trying to stop invasion from Grommash's army.

    Grommash never got any punishment at all for all of his atrocities.

  3. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Mind you, I love a good atonement arc. I'm Catholic, so that sort of thing deeply appeals to me. However, there's a certain framing necessary for that kind of thing, and "AHKTUALLY I was worried I wouldn't get to hang out with my family in the afterlife!" is used as a bit of a smokescreen to preclude a full atonement, even though that offers pretty minimal diminished responsibility relative to the crime, if any. It's especially awkward with how she openly thanks the player for sticking by her in spite of everything she did if you were a Loyalist back during BfA, which further diminishes the appearance of actual atonement.
    I would be fine with her conclusion if it went in the direction of genuine atonement, but as you've highlighted they've laid the ground work to just hand-waive it away. Her actually going through the stages of atonement would require a massive tonal shift for her character to be plagued with shame and guilt and basically never being the same even if her victims forgave her.

    I just don't foresee them doing that with her because the intention seems to be to bring back some idealized matyr-hero version of the character from WCIII. And in many ways, I think its even more insulting to posture it as a half-ass redemption story rather than just letting her get away with it completely. In my opinion, if you can't do it right then just don't go there at all.

  4. #984
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Grommash never got any punishment at all for all of his atrocities.
    Grommash was a fun and likeable presence, though.

  5. #985
    I'm just happy Sylvanas didn't get a "The Shadowlands/We are free!" moment and everything's hunky dory. She's getting a punishment, that was far more than I had expected. It could be far better, sure.

    But she didn't get off scott free. I'll take it. And yeah she could very well be back before too long, but at least she'll have had something done to her. At least she isn't just hanging around still.

  6. #986
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkilak View Post
    Grommash was a fun and likeable presence, though.
    What was so likeable about the guy so hungry for war and violence that he got easily tricked 2/3 times into killing and conquering other nations/worlds?
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #987
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    What was so likeable about the guy so hungry for war and violence that he got easily tricked 2/3 times into killing and conquering other nations/worlds?
    The very Orcish mentality is what he likes. Fun and likeable is not what I'd considered Grommash Hellscream. Aggressive, strong or whatever. I mean people can like that likeable is something Grommash. If he was likeable IMO he would of seemed more careful and less ruthless. I dunno what he saw.
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  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    WoD ended with Genocidal War Criminal Grommash holding hand with the Draenei families that he butchered and persecuted throughout the entire expansion. He held hands with Yrel, whose sister was brutally executed by the Void powers on Grommash's orders. He held hands with Durotan, whose brother died trying to stop invasion from Grommash's army.

    Grommash never got any punishment at all for all of his atrocities.
    He did, in the Mag'har questline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    What was so likeable about the guy so hungry for war and violence that he got easily tricked 2/3 times into killing and conquering other nations/worlds?
    I guess it's just because he's straight forward, like Gul'dan. I actually kind of liked Grom honestly, he was just not handled properly because of the cut content.

  9. #989
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    He did, in the Mag'har questline.
    Having a glorious last stand while saving the others is hardly a punishment. ESPECIALLY in orc culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    I guess it's just because he's straight forward, like Gul'dan. I actually kind of liked Grom honestly, he was just not handled properly because of the cut content.
    I mean, all I saw was a violent tool for different parties schemes, either BL or Garrosh. Dude was being constantly used. Gul'dan was at least the one plaining and pulling the strings.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2023-01-13 at 08:00 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  10. #990
    Dreadlord Berkilak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    What was so likeable about the guy so hungry for war and violence that he got easily tricked 2/3 times into killing and conquering other nations/worlds?
    Not personally. As a character. Like Walter White. You can enjoy a character without wanting to have a beer with them, you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    The very Orcish mentality is what he likes. Fun and likeable is not what I'd considered Grommash Hellscream. Aggressive, strong or whatever. I mean people can like that likeable is something Grommash. If he was likeable IMO he would of seemed more careful and less ruthless. I dunno what he saw.
    Not personality traits. Utility in the narrative. His presence meant the plot was going to move in fun ways.

  11. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    He did, in the Mag'har questline.

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    I guess it's just because he's straight forward, like Gul'dan. I actually kind of liked Grom honestly, he was just not handled properly because of the cut content.
    So let me get this straight: His "punishment" for objectively being a "villain" was to be framed by the Story as a hero who sacrificed himself against Yrel, whose sister was sacrificed to the Void powers on Grommash's orders (btw) and is now framed as the villain.

    Sure sure.

    It leaves a very bad taste in the mouth to have Yrel and the Draenei turn into villains by Blizzard, while Grommash (their persecutor) framed as a "hero" by the Story, and you can't deny this.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2023-01-13 at 08:12 PM.

  12. #992
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    So, I just checked enchant on my artifact weapons on the PTR and it seems like the flails have gotten new physics (prolly since they also created the new firelands themed one). It now wobbles around a lot!

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    Also, the Warden armour is the reward for getting 12 monthly trading post track rewards (like Ashadar in February).

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  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Iridikiron is far too soon considering he's "hyped up" as the strongest of the four.
    Yes he is but he's also made deals for that power and he's the center for a couple whispers so I'm expecting him to be like queen ashzara
    We will likely get more information in 10.0.7

  14. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Keeping the First Ones to the Shadowlands only would literally hurt their reasoning to exist and would ruin the whole point of the Realms of Death, the Zereths, the Pantheon of Death, etc.
    Better to hurt their reason to exist than to hurt the entirety of Warcraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So let me get this straight: His "punishment" for objectively being a "villain" was to be framed by the Story as a hero who sacrificed himself against Yrel, whose sister was sacrificed to the Void powers on Grommash's orders (btw) and is now framed as the villain.

    Sure sure.

    It leaves a very bad taste in the mouth to have Yrel and the Draenei turn into villains by Blizzard, while Grommash (their persecutor) framed as a "hero" by the Story, and you can't deny this.
    I never said his punishment was done justice, and I'd argue it wasn't even needed considering his story in WoD wasn't even finished.
    And regarding the Draenei, see my posts regarding this a few pages ago.
    Grom is still a cool character regardless of how they executed him, the same couldn't be said to Sylvanas who we followed through three expansions for the stupidest conclusion they could muster.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Keeping the First Ones to the Shadowlands only would literally hurt their reasoning to exist and would ruin the whole point of the Realms of Death, the Zereths, the Pantheon of Death, etc.
    Yes, that's the point. Their very existence is detrimental to the worldbuilding on a conceptual level.

  16. #996
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    No more detrimental then the god damn Titans.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  17. #997
    Glad they deleted these abominations and are replacing them with more lore friendly versions in the future.


  18. #998
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Glad they deleted these abominations and are replacing them with more lore friendly versions in the future.

    Funny enough, they already had Shadowmoon Orcs and Tauren Sunwalkers (because remember, originally it was said that Sunwalkers were both priests and paladins) so they prolly thought it would be cool to open up the "human style" priests to them too. Will be interesting to see where this goes though

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  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Glad they deleted these abominations and are replacing them with more lore friendly versions in the future.

    I'm glad they fixed that, this made no sense whatsoever. Also, that tauren has known better days it seems

  20. #1000
    I do hope they make an effort with the mogs. Wish they used better mogs for NPCs in general.

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